IAF Mi-17V5 Crashed Near Coonoor (Tamil Nadu)-CDS Onboard

Kartooz

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You mean to say, pilot psychology and PinS based approach was the reason for crash.

VVIP SOP need to change?? Why ? If there is no fault of IAF/Pilot then why to change SOP.

You also gave clean chit to IAF about other crashes. Obviously they don't operate and maintain them ..

Going by your logic and explanation, IAF must write final report of crash in one sentence...........

"Crashes ho gaye toh ho gaye bc... Mar gaye toh mar gaye... Humne kaha tha kya humare helicopter me baithne ko"🙏🙏
Pin-S based approach systems are not installed on IAF choppers. The Mi-17 chopper guy was saying that even with such a system - the chopper would not have been able to make a landing in conditions other than VFR (Visual flight). Being a non-precision approach, the chopper would be too high at its landing spot in conditions of low visibility that would not result in a fruitful landing.

Don't know if VVIP SOPs need to change, but the stress of carrying someone important in the back is very real. No matter what you do, this factor is never gonna change in a country like India.

What really grinds my gears is that IAF does its own investigations for crashes. As we are well aware; the armed forces are known to embellish reports to fit their narrative. A lot of their aircraft crash doing nothing more than simple level flight all the time, and it is high time we start asking them what is going on - may it be poor maintenance, poor planning, poor aircraft, or poor skills.
 

Love Charger

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Pin-S based approach systems are not installed on IAF choppers. The Mi-17 chopper guy was saying that even with such a system - the chopper would not have been able to make a landing in conditions other than VFR (Visual flight). Being a non-precision approach, the chopper would be too high at its landing spot in conditions of low visibility that would not result in a fruitful landing.

Don't know if VVIP SOPs need to change, but the stress of carrying someone important in the back is very real. No matter what you do, this factor is never gonna change in a country like India.

What really grinds my gears is that IAF does its own investigations for crashes. As we are well aware; the armed forces are known to embellish reports to fit their narrative. A lot of their aircraft crash doing nothing more than simple level flight all the time, and it is high time we start asking them what is going on - may it be poor maintenance, poor planning, poor aircraft, or poor skills.
Carrom board
 

vishnugupt

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In other words, IAF has just repeated the 27 Feb 2019 blunder on 8th December 2021. A poorly-equipped helicopter, Lack of necessary subsystems, Lack of discipline, Poor training of Carrom board warriors, Poor planning, Poor Response, and Himalayan arrogance to accept the fault within.
So CDS died in crash like any other common man and report say nothing ... Means there no accountability in armed forces even if they cause death to high officials. I am still stand with my above statement and here is why?

1) Poorly equipped and Lack of subsystem:- Despite being used to ferry VVIPs, Heli wasn't equipped with Radio altimeter or terrain avoiding system. HAL Rudra was much better transporter but we all know How UNAF maligned local.

2) Lack of discipline:- Pilot was not carrying terrain map to adjust helicopter height accounting to terrain below.
Pilot deliberately put Helicopter in cloud patch without asking CDS , Navigater officer or Ground staff.
As said in report, Pilots were following railway track but last moment video shows otherwise
Nobody was familiar with terrain of Nilgiris.

3)Lack of descipline is a sign of poor training.

4) Poor Planning:-
No Helicopter to inspect the route.
Nobody was tracking Helicopter. They woke up when CDS didn't land by 12:30pm at willington.
Poor evacuation plan despite of Helicopter was fly through mountain and Jungles.

5) Poor response:- Helicopter crash reported by Locals first and so was they first responders.
Armed forces responded almost hour later.
There wasn't an Ambulance while carrying injured. No medicines or Intravenous fluids were given.

This is true VVIPs must carry in an advance Choper but not having one doesn't mean you can't ferry VVIPs safely. Others device different strategy while UN Armed forces cry for Specific type of Helicopter... This is the difference.
 

samsaptaka

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So that's it ? No official communication by IAF or govt on the reason for the crash ? Just this ? What about taking measures to ensure it will not repeat ? Any statement on that ? Or is it the same jai ho russian maal attitude ? Armed forces know best, bloody civilians are morons, MiG-21 is better than junk Tejas anyday attitude ?
 

vishnugupt

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So that's it ? No official communication by IAF or govt on the reason for the crash ? Just this ? What about taking measures to ensure it will not repeat ? Any statement on that ? Or is it the same jai ho russian maal attitude ? Armed forces know best, bloody civilians are morons, MiG-21 is better than junk Tejas anyday attitude ?
What could one expect from UN Armed forces, Except Frustration ?

How one can communicate officially when one Rammed Heli into tree?

And what improvement you are expecting?? Next time they should Rammed into water?

UN armed forces are only busy in new deals and Imported weapons without necessarily subsystems.

99.99% AF and their offspring literally believe Mig-21 is way more superior than Tejas. This is not a joke .. Just talk to them for 10 minutes.

India must establish an independent Crash investigation agency for better insight.
 

space marine

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What could one expect from UN Armed forces, Except Frustration ?

How one can communicate officially when one Rammed Heli into tree?

And what improvement you are expecting?? Next time they should Rammed into water?

UN armed forces are only busy in new deals and Imported weapons without necessarily subsystems.

99.99% AF and their offspring literally believe Mig-21 is way more superior than Tejas. This is not a joke .. Just talk to them for 10 minutes.

India must establish an independent Crash investigation agency for better insight.
Seeing no action or even strong introspection it all points to
IAF lack of professionalism, bunch of people coming in because of nepotism,
Hate local stuff loves imported maal and then we see dozens of crashes every year.
Then the retired secular officers show there secular fangs on tweeter despising state head and feeling happy when CDS is killed like this.
 

another_armchair

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As far as my recollection goes, this is only the second high profile air accident in the Nilgiris.

The last one happened way back in 1950.

How come a top of the line pilot qualified to fly VVIP's flies a fully loaded(fuel) chopper straight into a hillside?

As per standard flying protocol, they are known to ascend to a certain height and fly in a line till they reach Wellington in order to avoid flying into a hill because of the local topography and sudden changes in weather conditions.

This is like your typical Sanjay Gandhi, Rajesh Pilot like mysterious deaths.
 

Bhumihar

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As far as my recollection goes, this is only the second high profile air accident in the Nilgiris.

The last one happened way back in 1950.

How come a top of the line pilot qualified to fly VVIP's flies a fully loaded(fuel) chopper straight into a hillside?

As per standard flying protocol, they are known to ascend to a certain height and fly in a line till they reach Wellington in order to avoid flying into a hill because of the local topography and sudden changes in weather conditions.

This is like your typical Sanjay Gandhi, Rajesh Pilot like mysterious deaths.
Don't know anything about Aviation but I would expect a terrain mapping software to constantly warn the pilot of terrain aptitude below.
 

another_armchair

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Don't know anything about Aviation but I would expect a terrain mapping software to constantly warn the pilot of terrain aptitude below.
In the absence of terrain mapping software and fancy tools, pilots stick to flight paths and good old altimeter's to know their altitude which seems to have been clearly violated.

The report raises more questions than answers.

The flight path from take off to crash has not been made public so far. Doubt it will ever be.

There have been no crashes of IA choppers in the past and flights between Sulur and Wellington are quite common. Of all crashes, it had to be this one carrying Gen. Rawat and some pretty important people and we must lump it as 'oh sheeet... burra hua vrooo... anhonee ko kaun taal sakta hai'.
 

indiatester

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https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1789972

The Tri-Services Court of Inquiry into the Mi-17 V5 accident on 08 Dec 21 has submitted its preliminary findings. The inquiry team analysed the Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder besides questioning all available witnesses to determine the most probable cause of the accident. The Court of Inquiry has ruled out mechanical failure, sabotage or negligence as a cause of the accident. The accident was a result of entry into clouds due to unexpected change in weather conditions in the valley. This led to spatial disorientation of the pilot resulting in Controlled Flight into Terrain. Based on its findings, the Court of Inquiry has made certain recommendations which are being reviewed.
 

Javelin_Sam

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As far as my recollection goes, this is only the second high profile air accident in the Nilgiris.

The last one happened way back in 1950.

How come a top of the line pilot qualified to fly VVIP's flies a fully loaded(fuel) chopper straight into a hillside?

As per standard flying protocol, they are known to ascend to a certain height and fly in a line till they reach Wellington in order to avoid flying into a hill because of the local topography and sudden changes in weather conditions.

This is like your typical Sanjay Gandhi, Rajesh Pilot like mysterious deaths.
Going by this logic, this Controlled Flight Into Terrain will not happen to anyone anywhere because they follow a pre-decided fixed path that has sufficient altitude to clear any terrain. That is not how it works. The chopper was on its final approach to Wellington. The pilot had to negotiate a valley and turn right to get to Wellington. There is terrain all around. They use visual flying to navigate this. Now once in the cloud, the pilot suffers spatial disorientation. That is he lost where he is what is his relative position wrt the terrain. Probably a wrong control stick move taking the chopper that struck a tree(1st sound) which caused loss of control and subsequent crash(2nd sound). Now a sabotage angle is only possible
1) if the planners manipulated the thoughts and decision making ability of the pilot through some telepathy since the chopper has no other terrain warning equipment to aid the pilot and hence mislead him. The Mi 17 has to he flown visually. Hence the 2nd) possibility of sabotage is the pilot himself has grudge on BiRa or other passengers so he decides for a suicide crash( Both were sarcasm lol) . So forum members, alteast show some critical thinking abilities before blabbering absurd things in the forum. Minimum quality of posts should be maintained
 

Kartooz

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Thumb rule 95% of crashes happen because of pilot mistake . We cannot expect this mistake from the best of our pilots especially esp when they are doing critical missions
@vishnugupt is right ..UNAF lacks professionalism and they have mamoth ego or else why we are hearing same news again and again .
There is no such thing as 'the best of our pilots'. Everyone can have an off day at work. The mentality of being better than others is what can make a macho pilot. I can bet that if the IAF had deployed new pilots to carry the CDS that day, this crash wouldn't have happened. Someone with lesser experience would play safer with bad weather than someone who is too experienced.
 

samsaptaka

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Possible that this report is only for public consumption, and the real reason is something else ? And not being revealed for opsec or natsec reasons ?
 

Kartooz

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Possible that this report is only for public consumption, and the real reason is something else ? And not being revealed for opsec or natsec reasons ?
No conspiracy theories, please. CFIT is a very common and known occurrence in aviation, especially when it comes to choppers. What smells like shit and looks like shit is usually just shit.
 

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