IAF Chooses Apache AH-64E Attack Helicopter

[rkhanna]

"Reverse engineering can be very useful as it is a unique design."

Sadly Reverse Engineering in Aerospace is a HUGE myth. The CHinese have ben abel to reverse engineer very little. INfact most of what they mass produce are actually old designs given to them and evolved inhouse. (J-11/j10/engines etc). The CHinese have let the myth of their ability to reverse engineer perpetuate because it showed their industry in good light. In truth very little was reverse enginnered. Everything from Planes, Engines, Ordanance is actually ToT bought with hard cash. Most times they ahve bought old/Shelved tech (like the Lavi) and improved upon it to bring them up to speed.

Proof can be seen btw in their inability to mass produce Black Hawk knock-offs.

PS if reverse engineering was so easy we would not be shopping around for Jaguars and Mirages to canabilize

 

[Kshithij]

Reverse engineering a) isn't that easy and b) has a cost, start infringing IPRs and soon enough you will be a pariah.

There's a middle ground, do your own R&D and apply lessons from imports (similar to the approach for LCA where all the work was Indian but certainly inspirations were used from existing IAF fighters).

HAL will develop IMRH, then it will make something heavier I am sure of it.

Not even Chinese have anything like CH-47F, they licence build the Mi-26.

None in the world has chinook other than USA. Even Russia does not have such helicopters. IMRH is a close clone of Mi17 helicopters.

I am not asking for blatant reverse engineering but to get maximum ideas and understanding of principles from imports while modifying according to Indian requirements.

 

[Prashant12]

IAF’s first CH-47F

 

[itsme]

Sorry about that @WolfPack86 turned out it was to be grey! Shiv Aroor misled me.

Guess the Army's Apaches will be in the standard color scheme. Hope to see that soon.

 

[abingdonboy]

Guess the Army's Apaches will be in the standard color scheme. Hope to see that soon.

Yes, would assume so.

IAF is fixated on their grey, Army has a more open mind. Will probably match their Rudras:

 

[abingdonboy]

"Reverse engineering can be very useful as it is a unique design."

Sadly Reverse Engineering in Aerospace is a HUGE myth. The CHinese have ben abel to reverse engineer very little. INfact most of what they mass produce are actually old designs given to them and evolved inhouse. (J-11/j10/engines etc). The CHinese have let the myth of their ability to reverse engineer perpetuate because it showed their industry in good light. In truth very little was reverse enginnered. Everything from Planes, Engines, Ordanance is actually ToT bought with hard cash. Most times they ahve bought old/Shelved tech (like the Lavi) and improved upon it to bring them up to speed.

Proof can be seen btw in their inability to mass produce Black Hawk knock-offs.

PS if reverse engineering was so easy we would not be shopping around for Jaguars and Mirages to canabilize

Plus, much of their "reverse engineered" "success" has not come from breaking down the units they have but hacking servers and stealing blueprints or acquiring these through other means (bribing and theft).

India isn't going to engage in this kind of activity.

 

[abingdonboy]

IMRH is a close clone of Mi17 helicopters.

It's really not, it's the next evolution of the ALH's design philosophy.

I am not asking for blatant reverse engineering but to get maximum ideas and understanding of principles from imports while modifying according to Indian requirements.

No doubt this will happen, LCA is clearly inspired by the M2K for example.

 

[Anikastha]

Why IAF needs gunships ? Let them concentrate on air-dominance and A2G bombing. Let IA have gunships so that they can support infantry units where every they want , instead of IA asking IAF to scramble Gunship asap every damn time.

 

[WolfPack86]

The IAF’s AH-64E Apaches come with AIM-92 Stinger air-to-air missiles, demonstrated live here by a Korean Army AH-64E in an exercise last December. (Video/ROK Army)

 

[Sancho]

Am so-so about the Apaches, for what they are they are VERY expensive and in these quantities their utility is limited. Also, with the LCH on the horizon the need for the Apache is questionable.

HOWEVER, 15 Chinooks are a game changer and I hope that once they are in service the IAF moves quickly to exercise the follow-on options (9 units I believe) 15/24 CH-47F really will be transformative. And unlike the Apache, there are no comparable Indian products even in the pipeline (IMRH won't even come close) so there is justification in ordering more.

The advantage of the Apache is the radar! If we can link the Longbows to LCH, you can have a mini AWACS like combo, like MKI/Mig 21 showed.

Ch47 is not a game changer, since it's capabilities are lower than what we had with the Mi 26. It only will provide more reliable heavy transport capability, with lower performance.

IMRH has no relation to heavy lifting, it's a medium class helicopter and aimed at Mi 17 replacement.

 

[Sancho]

Why IAF needs gunships ? Let them concentrate on air-dominance and A2G bombing. Let IA have gunships so that they can support infantry units where every they want , instead of IA asking IAF to scramble Gunship asap every damn time.

Except for IAF, everyone would agree to that. Sadly MoD was not able to be decisive and change that.

 

[Kshithij]

The advantage of the Apache is the radar! If we can link the Longbows to LCH, you can have a mini AWACS like combo, like MKI/Mig 21 showed.

Ch47 is not a game changer, since it's capabilities are lower than what we had with the Mi 26. It only will provide more reliable heavy transport capability, with lower performance.

IMRH has no relation to heavy lifting, it's a medium class helicopter and aimed at Mi 17 replacement.

The MMR radar is not that high end as to be a mini-AEWACS. It has just 10-15km range and is only suited for ground support role, not more than that. Similar radar will be coming for LCH too. But thes are only helicopter radars and not even as good as the SAR in Tapas-BH-201

 

[charlie]

None in the world has chinook other than USA. Even Russia does not have such helicopters. IMRH is a close clone of Mi17 helicopters.

I am not asking for blatant reverse engineering but to get maximum ideas and understanding of principles from imports while modifying according to Indian requirements.

Actually I saw the Soviet version of chinook in Manino, I can’t find it on google but I do have a photo.

I think it’s was just a prototype.

 

[Enquirer]

The advantage of the Apache is the radar! If we can link the Longbows to LCH, you can have a mini AWACS like combo, like MKI/Mig 21 showed.

Ch47 is not a game changer, since it's capabilities are lower than what we had with the Mi 26. It only will provide more reliable heavy transport capability, with lower performance.

IMRH has no relation to heavy lifting, it's a medium class helicopter and aimed at Mi 17 replacement.

Mi-26 might have higher lifting capability, but Chinooks control/maneuverability is unmatched! Chinooks can land literally anywhere - even perch itself on the edge of a cliff.

 

[charlie]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/28cFsYk] by https://www.flickr.com/photos/165982965@N05/
............................................................[/URL]

 

[charlie]

The advantage of the Apache is the radar! If we can link the Longbows to LCH, you can have a mini AWACS like combo, like MKI/Mig 21 showed.

Ch47 is not a game changer, since it's capabilities are lower than what we had with the Mi 26. It only will provide more reliable heavy transport capability, with lower performance.

IMRH has no relation to heavy lifting, it's a medium class helicopter and aimed at Mi 17 replacement.

I don’t know how you came to conclusions on lower performance, different mission requires different level of performance there are pro and cons of every helicopters but chinook in no way inferior when it’s comes to performance

Check the sales pitch done by Boeing for mi26 vs ch47.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/?bl.../01/boeing-presentation-to-iaf-comparing.html

 

[ezsasa]

which military wouldn't want these capabilities...

 

[Enquirer]

which military wouldn't want these capabilities...

Chinook is badass!!!!!!!!!

They're also the fastest operational helicopters in the world (they're faster than Apaches, Tigers etc).

 

[Sancho]

Mi-26 might have higher lifting capability

The main advantage is the internal capacity! IAF is used to transport trucks, bulldozers, JCBs... internally in them, to support road construction, or during disaster relief missions. That capability is gone, since the Ch 47 can mainly carry larger loads only externally.

I don’t know how you came to conclusions on lower performance,

By understanding what IAF uses heavy lift helicopters for, which is not the same as for US forces. Btw , that Boeing brochure shows a Ch53, not a Mi 26. Whike the truck can park at the ramp of the Ch 47, it can drive into the cargo hold of the Mi 26!

 

[Sancho]

The MMR radar is not that high end as to be a mini-AEWACS. It has just 10-15km range and is only suited for ground support role, not more than that. Similar radar will be coming for LCH too. But thes are only helicopter radars and not even as good as the SAR in Tapas-BH-201

Mini AWACS means, that you are able to share your radar data with other friendly aircrafts. So if you have 1 Longbow Apache, that is guiding 5 other helicopters, that don't have a radar, you have exactly that mission.