IAF and PLAAF - An Analysis

shankarosky

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Then IAF would have been badly mauled by Chinese AAA, just as USAF had been.

- not a correct assesment of chinese air defense capability - in 62 sams were not available and anti aircraft guns primitive - comparitively iaf aircraft were faster and more agile than china counterparts -they had the closer base advantage and most of the terrain they would have flown over was friendly or inhabitated -this was not true for USAF in korea and usaf flight profile and objective was totally diffrerent .In 62 iaf would have flown mostly defensive close support mission striking at chinas forward formations and thier logistics chain - turning the tide of the battle -giving indian army the vital time to regroup and counterstrike
 

hbogyt

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re

Then IAF would have been badly mauled by Chinese AAA, just as USAF had been.

- not a correct assesment of chinese air defense capability - in 62 sams were not available and anti aircraft guns primitive - comparitively iaf aircraft were faster and more agile than china counterparts -they had the closer base advantage and most of the terrain they would have flown over was friendly or inhabitated -this was not true for USAF in korea and usaf flight profile and objective was totally diffrerent .In 62 iaf would have flown mostly defensive close support mission striking at chinas forward formations and thier logistics chain - turning the tide of the battle -giving indian army the vital time to regroup and counterstrike
Not my assessment, OOE's.

There was no PGM either. Those planes would be turned into swiss cheese by AAA.
 

shankarosky

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There was no PGM either. Those planes would be turned into swiss cheese by AAA

have you ever tried shooting down a low flying jet with AAA that too 62 vintage - aaa were more a morale boosetr for troops on ground they were no protection at aircraft flying at more than 5000 ft over ground level- to be effective you needed a huge number with ovelapping field of fire -not possible in mountains of north east
 

hbogyt

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There was no PGM either. Those planes would be turned into swiss cheese by AAA

have you ever tried shooting down a low flying jet with AAA that too 62 vintage - aaa were more a morale boosetr for troops on ground they were no protection at aircraft flying at more than 5000 ft over ground level- to be effective you needed a huge number with ovelapping field of fire -not possible in mountains of north east
I will definitely take this to OOE. He said "Chinese triple A was deployed 'en mass'".

Your bombings wouldn't be accurate either.
 

Officer of Engineers

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Well, sorry, hbogyt, you should've PM me and allow to describe in detail what happened.

By itself triple As are no threat. Planes can merely fly around them.

HOWEVER, when taken with conjunctions of identified lines of approach, a completely different mater, ie laying the trap.

It all depends on the lines of approach. If Indian planes are tasked with stopping Chinese columns, then, they will search for the most likely lines of advance. Upon citing, a Chinese column, then, they will rain fire.

Now, approach this from the Chinese side, your own planes may not in be in place, let alone stop Indian planes, so what do you do? You lay out obvious targets for Indian planes to bomb away from your lines of approach. In the mean time, you shower flak onto any Indian fight.

Now, it doesn't matter if the Indian flight returns home unscathe. What it does mean that the next Indian CAP will waste time making sure no Chinese ground base AD trap is in place ... thus allowing a Chinese collum to advance without the threat of an Indian CAP.
 

Yusuf

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Sir,

But what about intel that will give picture of enemy advance?

What you are saying was possible in 62, now with drones and satellites, it will be pretty easy to figure out where the enemy advance is.
 

Yusuf

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Sir,

Read about that battle, it says nothing about an AD trap by the Iraqis in their march towards that city.

What i understood was that there was an Iraqi unit at Obs post 4 which drew attention while the other unit entered from 1 and 2 and they were engaged by A10s and F-16s.

It doesnt mention any traps laid by the Iraqis to divert CAP.
 

ahmedsid

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Al Khafji.
Khafji happened because the People gurading the border ran away at the start of the war. Can you believe that there was just 1 Saudi Soldier manning the Border? Shocking! Khafji was taken back by a contingent of Saudi Forces, and Qatari Soldiers (Mainly Pakistani Merceneries bought by the Emir Of Qatar). The Americans gave support in the form of Air Power and Advisors.
 

Yusuf

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No, the people at post 1 and 2 were ordered not to engage for whatever reasons. I dont think they ran away.
 

p2prada

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Well, sorry, hbogyt, you should've PM me and allow to describe in detail what happened.

By itself triple As are no threat. Planes can merely fly around them.

HOWEVER, when taken with conjunctions of identified lines of approach, a completely different mater, ie laying the trap.

It all depends on the lines of approach. If Indian planes are tasked with stopping Chinese columns, then, they will search for the most likely lines of advance. Upon citing, a Chinese column, then, they will rain fire.

Now, approach this from the Chinese side, your own planes may not in be in place, let alone stop Indian planes, so what do you do? You lay out obvious targets for Indian planes to bomb away from your lines of approach. In the mean time, you shower flak onto any Indian fight.

Now, it doesn't matter if the Indian flight returns home unscathe. What it does mean that the next Indian CAP will waste time making sure no Chinese ground base AD trap is in place ... thus allowing a Chinese collum to advance without the threat of an Indian CAP.
Hitting the supply lines will cause more damage than hitting troops. Afterall, there are no trucks and tanks to light up. The terrain gives a lot of cover.
 

ahmedsid

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No, the people at post 1 and 2 were ordered not to engage for whatever reasons. I dont think they ran away.
Yes they ran away, I have seen the photo of the Lone guy guarding. It was photographed by a French Journalistic mission alongwith Robert Fisk. Saw this in Fisks, library in beirut. The Khafji incident was a really embarassing situation for the allies.

A Company of soldiers were even traveling without any new maps etc and were going to cross Into the Iraqi held Kuwait, when Robert Fisk and the French journalists alerted the American Special forces guys and they got to them and corrected. Lots of such stuff happened in Gulf war, I will write about it in my Blog, you all will be shocked to hear most of the stuff! :D

PS: Sorry for being Offtopic
 

shankarosky

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AAA s are deadly when used in conjunctin with SAMs -the tripple a s push the low flying strike aircraft into SAM envelope quick reaction low altitude ones and they in turn push the aircraft up to high altitude long range sams -the situation like that did not exist in 62 and maybe even not now in indo china border
 

VayuSena1

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I think this thread is going a little bit too imaginary on the real life situations that are out there taking place. I noticed occasional exaggeration and a bit over nationalistic enthusiasm which needs to be curbed to certain decent levels. Currently, in a defending positions we can hold off any invasion. However, deep retaliatory strikes are not of the essence at this time.

Until 2020, it will not be possible to completely overpower an air force thrice our size. We are in the midst of our modernization and this is the reason why it is not wise to engage in such fanciful and waste adventures.
 

Parashuram1

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I think this thread is going a little bit too imaginary on the real life situations that are out there taking place. I noticed occasional exaggeration and a bit over nationalistic enthusiasm which needs to be curbed to certain decent levels. Currently, in a defending positions we can hold off any invasion. However, deep retaliatory strikes are not of the essence at this time.

Until 2020, it will not be possible to completely overpower an air force thrice our size. We are in the midst of our modernization and this is the reason why it is not wise to engage in such fanciful and waste adventures.
So are you saying that India is completely defenseless against a potential invasion by the Chinese? Then it is a matter of concern since you being a professional, is saying this. As an analyst I don't think that there is any potential of a full scale border war as gone are those days.

Today's war as you pointed in many of your earlier posts are swift and small scale with great intensity. Therefore the Indian air force might have to change tactics of engaging the Chinese border incursions and potential land grabbings.
 

sandeepdg

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KuKu, the idea that India maintains a technological superiority as of now in AF is a myth.

I give you some quotes:

"The sale of 126 combat planes to the technology-starved Indian Air Force will be the world’s most lucrative fighter jet contract in more than a decade."

"India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system."

India kicks off fighter jet trials | Air Force News at DefenceTalk
Well, thing will change after 2015, brother....... anyway even now Indian Air Force has around 105 Su-30 MKIs which, i believe are the most advanced multi-role combat aircraft in Asia and arguably one of the best 4.5 gen aircraft in the world today........
 

sandeepdg

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I wouldnt undermine the J01B, its a pretty formidable machine. I remember reading in a US naval report that the original J-10 was a big threat to the F/A-18. Know with the new J-10 its a whole different ball game.

Heres some information on the new upgrades

Grande Strategy: The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging
For all those obsessed with the J-10..... here's the reality...an honest comparison.. the TVC system for the J-10 is still under development.....and is at least 5-6 yrs. away.......so, as of now the SU-30 MKI remains the best mrca in Asia......

LCA VS J-10 (Closed) [Archive] - Defence Talk Forum
 

nitesh

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I like the bold comment specifically :D

Former Air Chief Fali Major on 26/11: Rediff.com News

We seem to have China phobia and get quite perturbed by their threats. Is it because we cannot match up to their military might?

India does not need to worry too much about China. They may have quantity, but cannot match our quality. Moreover, the scenario is not the same as 1962 and China cannot mess with India as it did in 1962.

Our forces are well equipped and the Indian brain is far ahead when compared to the Chinese brain.

The phobia of 1962 is definitely over and our deployment along the Indo-China border is very good.
 

badguy2000

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as I know ,it is not the first time that Indian arm forces always had felt so goood in the front of PLA ...........

According to Neville Maxwell's INDIA`S CHINA WAR, Indian army firstly thought that one Indian solder could defeat 10 PLA solders in early 1950s, then slimly revised the ratio after they saw bravery behavior of Chinese soldiers in Korea war (1950-1953). But India army still insisted that one India solder defeat 5-7 PLA solders at least.
 

Singh

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as I know ,it is not the first time that Indian arm forces always had felt so goood in the front of PLA ...........

According to Neville Maxwell's INDIA`S CHINA WAR, Indian army firstly thought that one Indian solder could defeat 10 PLA solders in early 1950s, then slimly revised the ratio after they saw bravery behavior of Chinese soldiers in Korea war (1950-1953). But India army still insisted that one India solder defeat 5-7 PLA solders at least.

Verdicts on India

In early 1967, The Times of London ran a series of articles on `India's Disintegrating Democracy'. In contrast to this gloominess was a more contemporary estimate, this time provided by The Guardian ... . A comparison.

IN the first weeks of 1967, the Times of London carried a series of articles on "India's Disintegrating Democracy". Written by their Delhi correspondent, Neville Maxwell, these assessed the upcoming General Elections, the fourth held since Independence, and the first since Jawaharlal Nehru's death. The articles were deeply pessimistic about the prospect for democracy in India. As Maxwell wrote, "famine is threatening, the administration is strained and universally believed to be corrupt, the government and the governing party have lost public confidence and belief in themselves as well". These various crises had created an "emotional readiness for the rejection of Parliamentary democracy". The "politically sophisticated Indians" whom Maxwell spoke to expressed "a deep sense of defeat, an alarmed awareness that the future is not only dark but profoundly uncertain".

`Crisis is upon India'

Maxwell's own view was that "the crisis is upon India — he could spy `the already fraying fabric of the nation itself", with the states "already beginning to act like sub-nations". His conclusion was unequivocal: that while Indians would soon vote in "the fourth — and surely last — general election", "the great experiment of developing India within a democratic framework has failed".

The imminent collapse of democracy in India, thought Maxwell, would provoke a frantic search for "an alternative antidote for the society's troubles". Three options presented themselves. The first was represented by the Jan Sangh (forerunner of today's Bharatiya Janata Party). This would play the Hindu card but fail, since it was as corrupt and faction-ridden as the other parties, and because the South would reject its over-zealous promotion of the Hindi language. The second possibility was an army coup, but this too "seems out of the question in India" because of the complex federal system. To succeed, there would have to be 17 simultaneous coups in the States, as well as one in the centre.

`Army coup'

While a straightforward coup was unlikely, Maxwell thought that the army would nonetheless come to rule India through indirect means. As he predicted, "in India, as present trends continue, within the ever-closing vice of food and population, maintenance of an ordered structure of society is going to slip out of reach of an ordered structure of civil government and the army will be the only alternative source of authority and order. That it will be drawn into a civil role seems inevitable, the only doubt is how?"

Maxwell answered his query by suggesting that "a mounting tide of public disorder, fed perhaps by pockets of famine", would lead to calls for a strengthening of the office of the President. The Rashtrapathi would be asked to literally act as the Father of the Nation, "to assert a stabilizing authority over the centre and the country". Backing him would be the army, which would come to exercise "more and more civil authority". In this scenario, the President would become "either the actual source of political authority, or a figure-head for a group composed possibly of army officers and a few politicians ... ".

The Hindu : Magazine / Columns : Verdicts on India

Cut to 2009, Neville Maxwell was wrong all along

FAIL !
 

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