How to fight terror against India?

spikey360

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I dont understand what you guys are discussing and how its useful in combating terrorism.

BTW I heard on news that some members of the Islamic community, egged on by digvijay singh, have said that they will allow Rahul baba to visit their constituency only if he accepted Batla house encounter was fake and ordered an investigation into it.

Good luck fighting terror with such politicians and people.
Yes, you are correct. It will require luck if we try to combat terrorism on one hand and try to appease on the other. That's why, its time we stop this dichotomy, imho.
 

Rage

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... we can certainly learn from them. I want India to regain its lost identity.
What is this lost identity you talk about? How do you arrive at this singular/homogenous identity? And is the process of arrival historical-narrative, contemporaneous or what?


Yes, you are correct. It will require luck if we try to combat terrorism on one hand and try to appease on the other. That's why, its time we stop this dichotomy, imho.
So, how do you propose to stop this 'dichotomy'? At its root cause? And are you sure it's not a polychotomy?
 
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Rage

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Frankly, this "unification" business scares me. People who try to impose some artificial homogeneity will end up doing more harm than good.

Why look at the Americans or the Russians? This is the prime example of "aping the West". We are India, we are different. We have our own ethos, our own ways of dealing with things, our own worldview.

Just look at the panic in the West with rising immigration. With less than 1% Muslim population, we see them crying about the danger from Islam, etc. etc. etc. If they had the kind of mix that India has (religious, regional, linguistic, cultural, etc.), those nations would have self-destructed long ago.

We have nothing to learn from them in this respect.
Exactly the point I was trying to drive through through an elicited response. I'm still waiting for one from Vyom or spikey.
 

spikey360

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Exactly the point I was trying to drive through through an elicited response. I'm still waiting for one from Vyom or spikey.
Well, first let's be clear about our ancient values which you deride and ridicule. Frankly, i'm no saint, I can't possibly lecture about these on dfi posts. But the knowledge, the values which emanate from our Vedas, and religious texts, written and practised by our ancestors are the ones being referred to here. You might be of the opinion that they are regressive and 'uncivil', but that is your ignorance about it. Please read them, even if it is briefly and you'll be surprised my friend by how modern worldviews they actually are.

What I fail to understand is why you self styled liberals or conservatives or whatever you are, are afraid to stop muslim appeasement. It is a bane for our country. They are our brothers, fellow indians, they are as much capable of achieving things on their own as anyone else. So stop appeasing them just for votes. What's all this nonsense about inquiry in encounters involving terrorists? Who are you people kidding with? And no, stopping appeasement of muslims doesn't mean aggressive hindu appeasement or anything. Rather it would be the same thing as true nationalism. True secularism is not appeasing all religions, but ignoring all religions in the same manner, rather treating them equally.
 

Tronic

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What I fail to understand is why you self styled liberals or conservatives or whatever you are, are afraid to stop muslim appeasement. It is a bane for our country. They are our brothers, fellow indians, they are as much capable of achieving things on their own as anyone else. So stop appeasing them just for votes.
I think the biggest difference is that there are some who want to see the complete end of vote-bank political appeasement and others who are only concerned with ending Muslim appeasement. They are our fellow brothers and Indians as much as the 49.5% of Indians who are labelled OBC, SC, ST and benefit from this appeasement! The government is not creating new reservations but is accommodating Muslims (ones they label as "backward Muslims") within the 49.5% of Indians who are being appeased. So, anyone protesting against this so called "Muslim appeasement" is either misinformed, or is pissed off that his own room for appeasement under the 49.5% quota just got a little smaller! Thus, it is either ignorance which sparks such protest or hypocrisy.


What's all this nonsense about inquiry in encounters involving terrorists?
inquiry: A close examination of a matter in a search for information or truth

The National Human Rights Commission carried out the inquiry and gave Delhi Police a clean chit. Case closed.
 
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Bangalorean

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Exactly the point I was trying to drive through through an elicited response. I'm still waiting for one from Vyom or spikey.
Look at the response now - it is so much on predictable lines. I could have guessed it even without seeing this fellow's post. Some shit about "Muslim appeasement", some crap about "going back to Vedas".

These people have very low intelligence. NO one on this page ever said anything in favour of "Muslim appeasement". But the fellow cannot look and think beyond that. Ever noticed something about these people? If you disagree with anything they say, they tag you with some "liberal" or something and whine about "Muslim appeasement".

Ask them for concrete solutions to the nation's problems, they have only some generic crap to spew about a "return to the Vedas". We all do our Pujas at home, celebrate our ancient festivals - but we keep that separate from the task of finding solutions to the nation's problems. This is where their "Indian Paki" angle comes in. What is the difference between the Paki Mullah and these people?
 
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Vyom

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Bangalorean, people in general are not mindful to subtleties of life and hence we can see more people rallying behind you.

Those things in India that do not work well, are because of bad systems and processes in place. It has absolutely nothing to do with "ancient core values being lost". BTW, aren't you contradicting yourself when you say on the one hand, that we need to learn how to set up processes from the West, and on the other hand, bemoan "Western values" for everything wrong with the nation?!!
Things anywhere in the world would not work unless people who are in charge of discharging their duties do so well. And why would they discharge their duties well? There can be two reasons: out of fear of law or out of their sense of responsibility for their nation. The former is an example of what you are trying to affirm and the latter is an example of more basic reason that I am trying to point to. And it is directly related to the core values that have originated from this land and which has been passed since generations to us.

We had severe problems and corruption in railway reservations in the 80s. People used to bribe their way to the "front" of the waiting list. These problems were eliminated due to computerization, and not due to some "ancient core values". Our national highways were single lane dual-carriageway roads for decades, and in bad repair most of the time. That changed due to excellent initiative and administration, not to mention, good growth (which infused money into the system). We had only the ambassador and premier padmini for decades. That changed with good economic policies and good economic growth. Not due to regaining some "ancient core values".
Would there have been a need for such a system if people would not have resorted to bribing in the first place? Of course, but may be more because of convenience and less because of corruption. You must have heard how people in just the near history were able to go out of their houses without locking it?

I am not against stringent laws to check crimes and corruption, but that is not my idea of India, where people would do or don't do something not because of their sense of morality and responsibility but because of the fear of law.

And you haven't really answered the question. Again, you mention something about "ancient core values passed down the generations, but I do not see how we can tangibly improve what does not work, with the assistance of those core values". And really, what are these "ancient core values" that we have lost"??. To fix the issue of corruption, we need more IT-enabled systems, more technology, harsh penalties and harsh enforcement. We need FDI in manufacturing to generate employment, we need centralized databases to track income tax evaders and we need a massive irrigation and interlinking program to solve issues of poor crop yields. These are tangible, realistic steps that the nation needs to take to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps. All this talk of "ancient core values" really doesn't do anything to solve problems on the ground.
The psychology of the society is squarely responsible for how it is and how it behaves. If you can alter that for good, most of the things automatically falls into place. Take your own self, your thoughts are all the basis you are writing all this stuff. I do not want to see us become zombies who only respond to system rather than the system working for us.

Now about core values. For that I suggest you read my blog here: http://defenceforumindia.com/blogs/...ion-elementary-deficit-character-society.html

The blog only gives you the direction to those core values, but does not goes into explicit length about it. The reason being these core values are subtle and although quite obvious to those who can see things in the right perspective, most others cannot comprehend it because for that to happen they would need to understand the nature of our being, which takes us into metaphysical stuffs.

But let me give you a more explicit understanding of how India should basically be. This is the idea of Vivekanand about India:

Vivekananda's India is one, which is eternal India —the India of sacrifices and renunciation. We must give up our little ambitions and petty selfishness for the good of the nation. In trains, in buses, in the streets, in offices—everywhere there is ample opportunity for giving up our little selves and serving others—which is nothing but our nation. Let's do this for our own good.
That is the most basic stuff, but tells a lot about the direction in which India as a society ought to be. My idea of India is deeply rooted in the philosophies Upanishads and Gita, the same that has trickled down to us quite selectively. But that takes us way too close to metaphysical stuffs that I cannot discuss here.

You don't know what you are talking about when you speak of my suffering losses (or not). As an example, a site that I had purchased has been encroached upon (along with others), and the case is in court, since it is a "civil property dispute". So, what now? According to your logic I should proclaim that I am not proud of India and that things are "getting worse", simply because I have "faced a situation wherein I have suffered a major loss due to my own countrymen" (in your own words). Never mind the fact that I am living a much better life than my father or grandfather were at my age. Never mind the fact that all my friends and relatives live much better lives than their preceding generations. We should not be proud of India, we should all beat our chests and bemoan the fact that India is becoming worse day by day, just because we have all "faced some situation or the other wherein we have suffered a major loss due to our own countrymen". :crazy:
That is not the major loss I was talking about, I see you are not at terms with it. And again, don't compare India with what it was, compare it with what it ought to have been by now. How can we see our countrymen dying in bomb blasts or sheer road rage, girls being raped in thousand everyday and millions going hungry each day and still say we are better off. No you are better off, not all your fellow countrymen, and if that does not makes you care then you are part of the problem.

Why indeed? Again, contradictory. Tell me this - these useless Indians who go to the USA and begin to completely "ape" Western values and let go of their "ancient core values" more than ever before, somehow do very well in the USA. "Moral strength" of Indians somehow becomes much much greater in that alien land!!

The US had lots of problems of its own in the 19th century, and in the years preceding (and immediately following) WW2. Please read up about the mining towns in the US and the problems there, Al-capone and the brutal bootlegging mafia there, the way law enforcement officers used to eat out of gangsters' hands and were on their payroll, about the plight of dock workers in the US during those years, about black ghettos, drug addiction and narcotics mafia....

The USA took decades to reach where it is today, and it was a painful process. They made gradual improvements to their society in increments - bit by bit, they built their society brick by brick. That is why the USA is what it is, not because the USA has some magical "ancient core values" of their own which automatically make their people and society inherently better than ours, which is what your posts imply.

And anyway, what are these "ancient core values" that our nation should grab hold of, due to which we will become a land of milk and honey and get rid of all our issues? Enlighten me.
That are the reasons we want find and hold on to our own unique identity, based on the ideas of society that has evolved in this great ancient civilization, not those borrowed from others or the invaders of this land.
 

Vyom

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Ask them for concrete solutions to the nation's problems, they have only some generic crap to spew about a "return to the Vedas". We all do our Pujas at home, celebrate our ancient festivals - but we keep that separate from the task of finding solutions to the nation's problems. This is where their "Indian Paki" angle comes in. What is the difference between the Paki Mullah and these people?
The most concrete solution is the solution that directly affects the psyche of the masses for good. You think holding on to the idea of India based on our past is all about celebrating Diwali and Holi? It is a shame that you cannot differentiate between ideas and culture.
 

spikey360

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I think the biggest difference is that there are some who want to see the complete end of vote-bank political appeasement and others who are only concerned with ending Muslim appeasement. They are our fellow brothers and Indians as much as the 49.5% of Indians who are labelled OBC, SC, ST and benefit from this appeasement! The government is not creating new reservations but is accommodating Muslims (ones they label as "backward Muslims") within the 49.5% of Indians who are being appeased. So, anyone protesting against this so called "Muslim appeasement" is either misinformed, or is pissed off that his own room for appeasement under the 49.5% quota just got a little smaller! Thus, it is either ignorance which sparks such protest or hypocrisy.
The national will to fight terror gets strengthened many times once you stop Muslim appeasement. Upliftment of the poor and downtrodden Indians are not an issue related with this. We must be aware that reservation on the basis of any religion is against constitution. If we find out that our Muslim brothers and sisters, all of them are in dire economical conditions, we will jump to their rescue without second thoughts, not because they are Muslims but because they are are our countrymen. What these 9% quota promise advocates is that a certain religion is more backward than the other religions. That's no way to go.
 
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spikey360

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Is
Not hanging Kasav
Not Hanging Guru
Demanding inquiry into Batla house
Inquiry into Ishrat Jahan/Sohrabuddin encounter

not Muslim appeasement? FYI LeT themselves acknowledged Ishrat as a member.
So you see, most of you don't have an idea which are actually the things which appease Muslims. You think quota appeases them? Wrong. They are indifferent about it. But the ones above, definitely do.
 

Bangalorean

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Vyom:

I went through your blog. Overall, your point is that the character of Indians and Indian society needs to be altered to find solutions to the issue.

Of course, you have not addressed how you want to make this happen.

Our education system, textbooks and teachers have the bookish knowledge required to inculcate "character" - they teach all the good stuff. The issue is that children grow up, imbibe stuff from their parents and society, and end up not making much change. Our textbooks and schools teach us about how wrong corruption is, how important it is to keep our streets clean, how bad it is to take dowry, and so on.

I take the reverse view as compared to yours. We need to keep improving our systems and processes, make it tougher and tougher for the corrupt and laggards through means of technology, enforcement, etc. Things will improve gradually, and we corruption decreases, the next generations will not think of bribes, kickbacks, etc. in the same vein that we do.

I do not see how you plan to inculcate the entire Indian society with "the pursuit of core knowledge" and then watch things become better.
 

Vyom

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Vyom:

I went through your blog. Overall, your point is that the character of Indians and Indian society needs to be altered to find solutions to the issue.

Of course, you have not addressed how you want to make this happen.

Our education system, textbooks and teachers have the bookish knowledge required to inculcate "character" - they teach all the good stuff. The issue is that children grow up, imbibe stuff from their parents and society, and end up not making much change. Our textbooks and schools teach us about how wrong corruption is, how important it is to keep our streets clean, how bad it is to take dowry, and so on.

I take the reverse view as compared to yours. We need to keep improving our systems and processes, make it tougher and tougher for the corrupt and laggards through means of technology, enforcement, etc. Things will improve gradually, and we corruption decreases, the next generations will not think of bribes, kickbacks, etc. in the same vein that we do.

I do not see how you plan to inculcate the entire Indian society with "the pursuit of core knowledge" and then watch things become better.
I like this post of yours Bangalorean. It gives much scope for a civil discussion. I know I have not addressed exact solutions in the blog and that is because it is out of the scope, the topic is just too vast. But just one thing we must agree and agree strongly is that the present education system is not inculcating enough character in their subjects. Actually, it is a very dismal state. And that must change as soon as possible. The primary goal of education system should be that students come of out of the institutions armed with enough knowledge about their responsibilities and rights, and how in their own way they affect the course of entire India.

I have been to many schools and interacted with the kids and I can clearly see the degradation and utter disregard to core values exhibited by students in general. They don't even know that without proper respect to their teachers, all they would be doing is not learning for excellence but learning in order in to position to earn good money. And neither do the teachers exhibit the persona that would allow the students to respect them. That is just very basic but significant bit.

Now your views about improving the system is not in contradiction to mine, I am not opposed to it, but I am and will be focused on the elementary deficiencies of our society, rest everything else can and will follow.
 

agentperry

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its well known and proven fact that guerrilla warfare is best to defeat enemy in long term. the horror it creates can kill any ambition of the main force.
russian lost less than 3 % of the total deployed force in afghanistan but it prompted them to pull off. many other factors were there but the terror of mujhahideen broke the moral of russians in afghanistan.
same they want to repeat in every place they think enemy of islam exists.( where they, the fanatics want to rule)

to kill terrorism in India, GoI needs to kill these org in maldives, SL, myanmar and elsewhere.
 

Rage

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Let me just suggest how you've run down your own self-beguiling trip.

In one sentence, you've alleged that I 'deride and ridicule' India's ancient values, conceivably regard them as 'regressive and 'uncivil', called me an 'ignorant self-styled' 'liberal or conservative' (whichever which?) and have alleged I 'appease muslims'. All, while failing to answer the question I posed you: how do you arrive at this singular 'homogenous' identity? Do you know me? How long have you even interacted with me, on this forum?

Yeah, your no saint.

So, let's get back to the question: through what deductive method have you arrived at a 'homogenous' Indian identity? Is this process historical, narrative, contemporaneous or what? And how do you propose we re-establish that 'identity'?

And I'd also like to suggest, you take a little time to know members before you rant off about them. Some of us, older members, only have civility that prolongs as long as our counterpart's.

We have been discussing these things long before you ever got here.

Well, first let's be clear about our ancient values which you deride and ridicule. Frankly, i'm no saint, I can't possibly lecture about these on dfi posts. But the knowledge, the values which emanate from our Vedas, and religious texts, written and practised by our ancestors are the ones being referred to here. You might be of the opinion that they are regressive and 'uncivil', but that is your ignorance about it. Please read them, even if it is briefly and you'll be surprised my friend by how modern worldviews they actually are.

What I fail to understand is why you self styled liberals or conservatives or whatever you are, are afraid to stop muslim appeasement. It is a bane for our country. They are our brothers, fellow indians, they are as much capable of achieving things on their own as anyone else. So stop appeasing them just for votes. What's all this nonsense about inquiry in encounters involving terrorists? Who are you people kidding with? And no, stopping appeasement of muslims doesn't mean aggressive hindu appeasement or anything. Rather it would be the same thing as true nationalism. True secularism is not appeasing all religions, but ignoring all religions in the same manner, rather treating them equally.
 

Rage

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Vyom,

'Subtleties of life'? So, you like to think yourself a great philosopher? Do you realize that philosophy is multitudinal, never discrete and ever-changing? Whereas the 'practical' solutions to this nation's problems are concrete? Do you discount our intelligence?

Philosophy is never meant to be philosophy alone, A philosophy that is not practical is a no-good philosophy, no matter how metaphysically cogent or potent it may be.

Perhaps you need to get out more, and realize how India works. Despite its systems, its diversification, its eccentricities and its extremes. And that is because of one central force, the belief that religious, economic and political practice are largely free in a country that incorporates them all.

Hindu 'psychology', which I don't know how you tend to singularly simplify, concatnate or integrate and which is itself distinctly diverse, has not served Hindu kingdoms so 'well' in the past. At least, as far as equitable social development, state defense and the development of applicable macro-technology are concerned. Those are the pinions of a modern state. How do you propose to reconcile the 'two'?

Besides, you will find major philosophies and major Granths or religious-text books have a lot to teach us metaphysically/philosophically. The Gita is not the ultimate source nor is it the exception. You will find that out if you set aside, for what I will call, for lack of a better word, 'Hindu chauvinist sentiments' and delve into them yourself.
 

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