How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence system?

[blueblood]

The Boeing YAL-1 Airborne Laser Testbed (formerly Airborne Laser) weapons system is a megawatt-class chemical oxygen iodine laser (COIL) mounted inside a modified Boeing 747-400F.

The heart of the system is the COIL, comprising six interconnected modules, each as large as an SUV. Each module weighs about 6,500 pounds (3,000 kg). When fired, the laser produces enough energy in a five-second burst to power a typical American household for more than an hour.

If the ABL achieves its design goals, it could destroy liquid-fueled ICBMs up to 600 km away. Tougher solid-fueled ICBM destruction range would likely be limited to 300 km, too short to be useful in many scenarios

The reality is that you would need a laser something like 20 to 30 times more powerful than the chemical laser in the plane right now to be able to get any distance from the launch site to fire."

Boeing YAL-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I have contemplating this for some time that the constraints of this particular program doesn't affect India, not in the least in terms of Pak centric missile defence.

If Yal-1 could be considered as a template, then a rail mobile system should effectively have increased range and intensity since the weight constraints do not apply as much yet will have sufficient mobility and much longer endurance.

KALI program of DRDO is too immature and technologically backward. So can it done?

@Twinblade, @p2prada and others.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

@blueblood

Forget ICBM, even an IRBM launched from 3000-5000km away cannot be targeted by any photonic source due to atmospheric refraction and scattering due to air suspended particles.

That is why laser based defence is restricted to CIWS range like LAWS.

Directed Microwave can technically work, but would need hundreds of gigawatts of power for IRBM/ICBM range. That kind of power source does not exist, that too on mobile platform. An average nuclear power plant spread over many hectares produce only 1gigawatt.

So, boost phase DEW interceptor is not currently feasible, unless we can get The Empire to build us a Death Star, or at the least get Tony Stark to share his Arc Reactor with us.

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

@blueblood

Forget ICBM, even an IRBM launched from 3000-5000km away cannot be targeted by any photonic source due to atmospheric refraction and scattering due to air suspended particles.

That is why laser based defence is restricted to CIWS range like LAWS.

Directed Microwave can technically work, but would need hundreds of gigawatts of power for IRBM/ICBM range. That kind of power source does not exist, that too on mobile platform. An average nuclear power plant spread over many hectares produce only 1gigawatt.

So, boost phase DEW interceptor is not currently feasible, unless we can get The Empire to build us a Death Star, or at the least get Tony Stark to share his Arc Reactor with us.

Refraction won't work on LASER since it a monochromatic beam will be refracted uniformly. However scattering will. One solution could be to bypass atmosphere. Mount the defence system on satellites and target the missiles when they go out of the atmosphere.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Not spatial refraction, but atmospheric refraction. When light travels from denser (lower atmosphere) to rarer (upper atmosphere) medium, it refracts.

Satellites are woefully under powered. Only a few megawatts from Solar Panels.

Am telling you! Nothing short of a Death Star with a terrawatt nuclear core in GSO would work! Now where is that Sith when one needs them!

Refraction won't work on LASER since it a monochromatic beam will be refracted uniformly. However scattering will. One solution could be to bypass atmosphere. Mount the defence system on satellites and target the missiles when they go out of the atmosphere.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Missiles fly at Mach 25 planes fly at less than Mach 1 how much time do you get to arrive at distance to hit the Missile? How about an SLBM fired close to land? How do you get a power source on a plane?
Sometimes things don't exist and are presented as news . I have been reading about space based
Kinetic weapons for years still no country has a system or working model. As far as Kali goes why
Be critical of something we have very little info about? For all we know it maybe at a highly advanced
Stage?

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Not spatial refraction, but atmospheric refraction. When light travels from denser (lower atmosphere) to rarer (upper atmosphere) medium, it refracts.

Satellites are woefully under powered. Only a few megawatts from Solar Panels.

Am telling you! Nothing short of a Death Star with a terrawatt nuclear core in GSO would work! Now where is that Sith when one needs them!

System can be programmed to,dealt,with the refraction problem of the laser,beam easily. So refraction is no that big problem, power is the biggest problem.

By the way, low level air defence system is very promising for stationary location. Isn't it?

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Not spatial refraction, but atmospheric refraction. When light travels from denser (lower atmosphere) to rarer (upper atmosphere) medium, it refracts.

Satellites are woefully under powered. Only a few megawatts from Solar Panels.

Am telling you! Nothing short of a Death Star with a terrawatt nuclear core in GSO would work! Now where is that Sith when one needs them!

And that refraction will be uniform for the beam, i.e. every photon in the beam will be refracted equally since the beam is monochromatic. Hence the beam will not lose its intensity. The magnitude of refraction can be estimated beforehand and changes to the targeting can be made accordingly.

Satellites should be loaded with high capacity batteries to perform this job. Such a system will only be usable once, but could be recharged over time using solar panels.

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Missiles fly at Mach 25 planes fly at less than Mach 1 how much time do you get to arrive at distance to hit the Missile? How about an SLBM fired close to land? How do you get a power source on a plane?
Sometimes things don't exist and are presented as news . I have been reading about space based
Kinetic weapons for years still no country has a system or working model. As far as Kali goes why
Be critical of something we have very little info about? For all we know it maybe at a highly advanced
Stage?

Kinetic energy based weapons doesn't have any future in space. Because of the gravity of earth, all debris come back to the earth. But that situation is not available in space. If you use kinetic weapon, the debris of weapon any your enemy can be a serious problem for you. That is the main thing which is hindering generals,to put weapons in space, not the technological backwards.

So energy based weapons are the only thing which can be use in space.

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

And that refraction will be uniform for the beam, i.e. every photon in the beam will be refracted equally since the beam is monochromatic. Hence the beam will not lose its intensity. The magnitude of refraction can be estimated beforehand and changes to the targeting can be made accordingly.

Satellites should be loaded with high capacity batteries to perform this job. Such a system will only be usable once, but could be recharged over time using solar panels.

Nice idea, mogemb khus Hua. But still very much work need to do in field of batteries.

 

[blueblood]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

@blueblood
Forget ICBM, even an IRBM launched from 3000-5000km away cannot be targeted by any photonic source due to atmospheric refraction and scattering due to air suspended particles.

But we are not supposed to deal with the long distance launch. Pakistan at it's widest is around 1200 kms.

Directed Microwave can technically work, but would need hundreds of gigawatts of power for IRBM/ICBM range. That kind of power source does not exist, that too on mobile platform. An average nuclear power plant spread over many hectares produce only 1gigawatt.

This is exactly the reason I asked you guys to consider Yal-1 as template. Six interconnected modules weighing 3 tons each is very heavy for an aircraft especially when the laser is underpowered.

You might as well put 60 such modules on a train which according to Robert Gates should provide the optimum intensity required and still won't make a dent in the mobility. As I said approach the problem in the India-Pak centric way not the American way.

 

[blueblood]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Missiles fly at Mach 25 planes fly at less than Mach 1 how much time do you get to arrive at distance to hit the Missile? How about an SLBM fired close to land? How do you get a power source on a plane?

Missiles do not achieve Mach 25 in the boost phase and also Paki missiles are primitive tech. They don't achieve Mach 25 even in the terminal phase. Please read my post again, DEW on a plane is not as good a idea as DEW on a train which I am proposing or even staionary like "Ageis Ashore".

Sometimes things don't exist and are presented as news . I have been reading about space based Kinetic weapons for years still no country has a system or working model.

Hence a train based system with 1000s of tons payload is a much easier way.

As far as Kali goes why Be critical of something we have very little info about? For all we know it maybe at a highly advanced Stage?

Fair enough. But had this been going well DRDO would have been shouting at the top of their lungs.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

System can be programmed to,dealt,with the refraction problem of the laser,beam easily. So refraction is no that big problem, power is the biggest problem.

By the way, low level air defence system is very promising for stationary location. Isn't it?

Yes, for low level air defence. As I said, CIWS range.

No, refraction problem of the laser cannot be dealt with easily. It is the biggest challenge all scientists working with lasers face.

And that refraction will be uniform for the beam, i.e. every photon in the beam will be refracted equally since the beam is monochromatic. Hence the beam will not lose its intensity. The magnitude of refraction can be estimated beforehand and changes to the targeting can be made accordingly.

Satellites should be loaded with high capacity batteries to perform this job. Such a system will only be usable once, but could be recharged over time using solar panels.

Yes, monochromatic beam will be refracted equally, theoretically, but not practically, as even monochromatic light has upper and lower frequency bands. Am sure you know about the dual characteristics of light (particles & waves)?

No, refraction cannot be estimated beforehand as there are multiple factors effecting it.

No, batteries alone cannot do, might require massive capacitor arrays, depending on the type of laser being used. It would be bigger and heavier than the ISS.

Am telling you man, get a Death Star!

 

[arnabmit]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

But we are not supposed to deal with the long distance launch. Pakistan at it's widest is around 1200 kms.



This is exactly the reason I asked you guys to consider Yal-1 as template. Six interconnected modules weighing 3 tons each is very heavy for an aircraft especially when the laser is underpowered.

You might as well put 60 such modules on a train which according to Robert Gates should provide the optimum intensity required and still won't make a dent in the mobility. As I said approach the problem in the India-Pak centric way not the American way.

Let's not waste time on Paki crackers. Let's talk about the credible threat: China.

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Yes, monochromatic beam will be refracted equally, theoretically, but not practically, as even monochromatic light has upper and lower frequency bands. Am sure you know about the dual characteristics of light (particles & waves)?

No, refraction cannot be estimated beforehand as there are multiple factors effecting it.

No, batteries alone cannot do, might require massive capacitor arrays, depending on the type of laser being used. It would be bigger and heavier than the ISS.

Am telling you man, get a Death Star!

No, I am not talking about monochromatic light. I am talking about LASER. LASER always has a single frequency. This is because of the manner in which LASER is produced, by excitation of electrons to higher states. This method ensures that the laser is composed of only a single frequency wavelength. Please read more on Laser. Hence the laser is always true monochromatic, i.e. composed of single wavelength rather than a narrow band of wavelengths. Therefore it will be refracted uniformly and not lose its intensity. Therefore it can be used as a weapon.

Refraction can be estimated beforehand. Go through this link
Validation of improved atmospheric refraction models for Satellite Laser Ranging (SLR) - Springer

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Even dummy satellites that crash into to other satellites or explode near other satellites
Can be a cheap space weapon with today's backward technology.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Missiles do not achieve Mach 25 in the boost phase and also Paki missiles are primitive tech. They don't achieve Mach 25 even in the terminal phase. Please read my post again, DEW on a plane is not as good a idea as DEW on a train which I am proposing or even staionary like "Ageis Ashore".



Hence a train based system with 1000s of tons payload is a much easier way.



Fair enough. But had this been going well DRDO would have been shouting at the top of their lungs.[/

Most Pakistani missiles are modified scud designs from ww2

AWACS
Sukhoi radar
Aerostats
Satellite monitoring
Layered Sam system
Spyder


Are all things india has or can get easily and should be more than effective for
95 percent of Pakistani missiles. There could also be a stalemate park arihant
Near Karachi coast and see if any missiles are launched knowing what collateral
Damage awaits,

 

[arnabmit]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

No, I am not talking about monochromatic light. I am talking about LASER. LASER always has a single frequency. This is because of the manner in which LASER is produced, by excitation of electrons to higher states. This method ensures that the laser is composed of only a single frequency wavelength. Please read more on Laser. Hence the laser is always true monochromatic, i.e. composed of single wavelength rather than a narrow band of wavelengths. Therefore it will be refracted uniformly and not lose its intensity. Therefore it can be used as a weapon.

Refraction can be estimated beforehand. Go through this link
Validation of improved atmospheric refraction models for Satellite Laser Ranging (SLR) - Springer

Lasers are characterized according to their wavelength in a vacuum. Most so-called "single wavelength" lasers actually produce radiation in several modes having slightly different frequencies (wavelengths), often not in a single polarization. And although temporal coherence implies monochromaticity, there are even lasers that emit a broad spectrum of light, or emit different wavelengths of light simultaneously. There are some lasers which are not single spatial mode and consequently their light beams diverge more than required by the diffraction limit.

For Eg: Suppose if a laser operates at 1.25GHz, it means it will have a spectrum of 1.245-1.254GHz. Hence not truly monochromatic. Singularity (or '0 deviation', if you please) is a theoretical construct which does not exist in the real world.

Read more about the "Blooming", "Beam absorption" effect on high-power long range laser.

For a more technical read, refer to this: http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/SRDC/Docs/SPIE-2010-7814.pdf

 

[p2prada]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

They are developing one, it will take 15 years.

They are also developing a ABM system for boost phase interception, that's more important today.

 

[blueblood]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Missiles do not achieve Mach 25 in the boost phase and also Paki missiles are primitive tech. They don't achieve Mach 25 even in the terminal phase. Please read my post again, DEW on a plane is not as good a idea as DEW on a train which I am proposing or even staionary like "Ageis Ashore".



Hence a train based system with 1000s of tons payload is a much easier way.



Fair enough. But had this been going well DRDO would have been shouting at the top of their lungs.[/

Most Pakistani missiles are modified scud designs from ww2

AWACS
Sukhoi radar
Aerostats
Satellite monitoring
Layered Sam system
Spyder


Are all things india has or can get easily and should be more than effective for
95 percent of Pakistani missiles. There could also be a stalemate park arihant
Near Karachi coast and see if any missiles are launched knowing what collateral
Damage awaits,

Scuds are too primitive, pakis now use improved and enlarged versions of M-11 which are solid fulled. Things you mentioned above are useless for BMD.

 

[blueblood]

Re: How about a directed energy based boost phase missile defence syst

Let's not waste time on Paki crackers. Let's talk about the credible threat: China.

The reason I started this thread because under nuclear umbrella Paki provocation increases day by day. Also it blunted the edge of earlier doctrine of 3 strike corps cutting across Pakistan replaced by a timid CSD. If we can achieve the boost phase interception of Paki MRBM's like shaheen 2 etc we can pretty much neuter them and kick their asses when we want how we want.:cool2: