Has DRDO never been given a proper chance?

SPIEZ

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There is a recent news that the IA is changing nearly 60,000 assault rifles. This at a time when there are 60,000 INSAS rifles or even more in active service.

INSAS was believed to be tailored around the needs of front line forces. INSAS also had some foreign exports including Nepal and Oman. Given it might be diplomatic pressure that forced the purchase, why not exert the same on IA?

INSAS on it's part has also had some problems, but nothing that wasn't fixed. Given rifles like M4 and M16 have had a host of problems, however the soldiers are still fighting wars. Take for instance the British rifle SA80, it too came with a host of problems. However an external consultant H&K was chosen to resolve the issue.

Why isn't the INSAS been given the same chance?

The highly successful ARJUN has also not seen any enthusiasm from it's end users.

All this forces the question, is DRDO really a failure?
Do Indian forces not want indigenous weapons?
Is there a pupose more than meeting the eye in the purchase of weapons?
 

SPIEZ

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Failure of the M16 and it's carbine.

Few issues are more personal to soldiers than the question of whether they can trust their rifles. And few rifles in history have generated more controversy over their reliability than the American M-16 assault rifle and its carbine version, the M-4.

In recent weeks, a fresh round of complaints about weapon malfunctions in Afghanistan, mentioned in an Army historian's report that documented small-arms jamming during the fierce battle in Wanat last year, has rekindled the discussion. Are the M-16 and M-4 the best rifles available for American troops? Or are they fussy and punchless and less than ideal for war?

Don't expect a clear answer any time soon. Expect several clear answers at once – many of them contradictory. This is because when talk turns to the M-16 and the M-4, it enters emotionally charged territory. The conversation is burdened by history, cluttered with conflicting anecdotes, and argued over by passionate camps.

This much is indisputable: Since the mid-1960s, when at Gen. William C. Westmoreland's request an earlier version of the M-16 became the primary American rifle in Vietnam, the reputation of the M-16 family has been checkered.

This is in part because the rifle had a painfully flawed roll-out. Beginning intensely in 1966, soldiers and Marines complained of the weapon's terrifying tendency to jam mid-fight. What's more, the jamming was often one of the worst sorts: a phenomenon known as "failure to extract," which meant that a spent cartridge case remained lodged in the chamber after a bullet flew out the muzzle.

The only sure way to dislodge the case was to push a metal rod down the muzzle and pop it out. The modern American assault rifle, in other words, often resembled a single-shot musket. One Army record, classified at the time but available in archives now, showed that 80 percent of 1,585 troops queried in 1967 had experienced a stoppage while firing. The Army, meanwhile, publicly insisted that the weapon was the best rifle available for fighting in Vietnam.

The problems were so extensive that in 1967 a Congressional subcommittee investigated, and issued a blistering rebuke to the Army for, among other things, failing to ensure the weapon and its ammunition worked well together, for failing to train troops on the new weapon, and for neglecting to issue enough cleaning equipment – including the cleaning rod essential for clearing jammed rifles.

A series of technical changes sharply reduced (but never eliminated) the incidence of problems. Intensive weapons-cleaning training helped, too. But the M-16 has struggled over the decades for universal and cheerful acceptance. Some soldiers and Marines have always loathed it, and its offspring, too.

To their critics, the M-16 and M-4 are ill-suited for Afghanistan and Iraq. Unlike the Kalashnikov rifles carried by insurgents, they are too sensitive to sand and fine dust, they say. They overheat quickly and in the worst battles are prone to fail.

Critics also complain about the weapons' relative lethality. Their lightweight bullets lack knock-down power, they say, especially when fired by the M-4, because the reduced barrel length of the carbine results in a reduced muzzle velocity, which lessens the severity of many wounds.

A discussion about the mechanisms of wounding could be a full post. One day I'll take that on. But any discussion about M-4 and M-16 lethality would be incomplete without mentioning an essential variable: bullet composition.

The most commonly used round today, the M855, has a steel penetrator core and was designed to pass through Soviet body armor; some soldiers complain that when it strikes a man wearing only a shirt it can travel through him like an ice pick. Unless it strikes bone squarely, they say, it tends not to dump adequate kinetic energy inside a victim.

Moreover, unlike the former round, the M193, the metal jacket of the M855's bullet tends not to fragment. This reduces the wound channels and energy transfer into a victim, too.

First translation: the M855 is not the best cartridge for shooting lightly clad insurgents; it is a cartridge designed for a different war. Second translation: some complaints about M-4 and M-16 lethality are likely related to the ammunition, not the rifles.

If all of this seems complex, it's only the background. Tomorrow we'll discuss the performance data from surveys of veterans and from reliability tests, and share the Army's position.

Do American troops deserve a better rifle-cartridge combination? If yes, how to define better? More lethal? Greater range? More reliable? What rifle and what cartridge combination would work best?
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/how-reliable-is-the-m-16-rifle/
 

Ray

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Not confint to this thread alone.

DRDO has been given more than a fair share of money, political patronage to including saddling the defence with not satisfactory weapon systems.

What more is to be done?

Who does not want an indigenous weapon?

War means lives lost.

No one would want to lose out because weapons and ammunition were not available because it was from foreign sources and there was a sanction.

India faced that issue during Kargil over Bofor ammunition.

No one wants to die and let that not be doubted, and what they sure don't want is that they were left high and dry because the weapon and ammunition were imported and imports were not feasible for whatever reason.

A soldier's life is important and if soldiers know that they have to die for no fault of theirs, then people will not join the armed forces.
 
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venkat

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spiez!!! The problem is "Made in India " label stinks as our mind set is thoroughly sodomized with phoren maal is always good!!! We don't anymore have the greats like Walchand hiranchand,Homi bhabha,Vikram sarabhai etc...one of my friends wanted to replace a 1$ part with an alternate part as the phoren manufactrer was demanding a fortune for the same. The sarkari babu baboons who are empowered with authorization of such replacements ,threatened my friend to desist from such activities, if the phoren company comes to know about it , you will be sued.... There are rascals among us who are protecting the interests of phoreners.!!! We lack the will and self confidence to ferociously defend our desi products.
 

Ray

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Made in India label does not stink.

The wireless set are all Made in India and are damn good.

There are many things which are Made In India which are good and are used with great gusto.

But if someone want junk to be accepted because of the label Made in India, then that is a wee bit scary since in war, flaunting duds because it is Made in India and dying thereof is a bit too much of patriotism to be expected from the rank and file of armed forces.

Have the ships which are Made in India been rejected?

What is okay and what are not mere duds will always be welcomed and even embraced.
 

sayareakd

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Yeah it is true that DRDO has given its chance, but it is also true that cost of INSAS compare to the modern assault rifle needs to be compared. Plus no foreigner will make weapons which will be as per our conditions without doing day light robbery. I dont need to mention what is going on in tank department and how Russians are robbing us with T90.
 

SPIEZ

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We lack the will and self confidence to ferociously defend our desi products.
We do not get to choose what weapons our soldiers carry.

I believe even the soldiers do not get the chance to choose what weapons they carry.

It all rests on the hands of a few, very few.

Maybe, the marketing arm of the DRDO, if any exists in the first place, does not work so good. Maybe they NEED TO DO THE NEEDFUL to get their products to sell.

Overall our babus make sure DRDO is such a waste of public money
 

sesha_maruthi27

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Shame on the DRDO for not able to develop a good gun for such a long time and are still allowing the defence forces to buy a gun from foreign countries and also trying to get TOT for other big guns. Can't they develop their own equipment rather than trying for TOT...........
 

SPIEZ

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Shame on the DRDO for not able to develop a good gun for such a long time and are still allowing the defence forces to buy a gun from foreign countries and also trying to get TOT for other big guns. Can't they develop their own equipment rather than trying for TOT...........
They did develop a gun. I wouldn't say it was good.

It managed 60,000 orders in it's home army.

It found buyers abroad. If it wasn't good how an it be bought abroad?
 

sesha_maruthi27

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They did develop a gun. I wouldn't say it was good.

It managed 60,000 orders in it's home army.

It found buyers abroad. If it wasn't good how an it be bought abroad?
Then why reject it now saying that it is of no use............
 

SPIEZ

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60,000 Guns is not a huge order for Indian armed forces.
Guns depend on threat analysis, ammunition availablity etc.
The guns, INSAS, were AFAIK purchased as replacement of FN FAL.

However, this 60,000 is the same amount of guns that I believe IA will be purchasing.
 

sayareakd

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Singh

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Compared with that the INSAS costs just 35,00 a piece.

Were any reasons stated on why the rifles are being phased out?
Dual - calibre rifles. Maybe we have huge reserves of ammo.
 

Kunal Biswas

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INSAS in Army alone is more than a Million then we have TA /IAF / IN too, Then comes the police, Paramilitary ...

Rest is on one`s calculation and imagination about the quantity we are talking about..
 

Kunal Biswas

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INSAS is a one good Rifle ( 1B1 ) that do not need replacement rather up-gradation as per need..

What ever Rifles we will get are in many ways degraded than INSAS except Galil ACE which is more or less same as INSAS but Israeli Updated it and we didn't..
 

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