HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

prateikf

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Stupid logic

they’ve already demonstrated they can deliver~30 ALH/year and that’s from their existing (maxxed out) production line in BLR, Tumkur is a massive greenfield facility that they can scale up as required and is designated purely for helicopter manufacturing

the only thing missing are ORDERS, production capacity is the by product

until March 2021 HAL only had orders for 40 LCA, what kind of production rate were you hoping for? 30/year?
Yes this policy of ordering in piecemeal will not help in achieving economies of scale for the OEM. Look at the army too planning to just order a mere 307 ATAGS with 2 firms. Would any pvt manufacturer set up a production line for such a minuscule order and then they would complain that they have no indigenous options and have to import from the Israeli’s. Ridiculous really.
 

johnj

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Yes this policy of ordering in piecemeal will not help in achieving economies of scale for the OEM. Look at the army too planning to just order a mere 307 ATAGS with 2 firms. Would any pvt manufacturer set up a production line for such a minuscule order and then they would complain that they have no indigenous options and have to import from the Israeli’s. Ridiculous really.
Then who is going to order Low Rate Initial Production / LSP ?????
307 ATAGS is huge huge order, if you consider the manufacturing capability, big order only happen after setting up big manufacturing capability in the first place.
Just imagine US ordering 2500 F35 in first place, it will cause huge issues with US military moderation plan and that is Ridiculous
Before writing. consider googling p75i, namica, mmrca etc etc first
FYI- HAL already completed LSP and delivered those to Armed forces, DRDO completed development of helicopter launched atgm, both IAF and IA satisficed with the results, now they are ready to order, the nos depends on funds and MoD, not armed forces. GoI need to increase defense budget around 3~3.5% GDP.
 

prateikf

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Then who is going to order Low Rate Initial Production / LSP ?????
307 ATAGS is huge huge order, if you consider the manufacturing capability, big order only happen after setting up big manufacturing capability in the first place.
Just imagine US ordering 2500 F35 in first place, it will cause huge issues with US military moderation plan and that is Ridiculous
Before writing. consider googling p75i, namica, mmrca etc etc first
FYI- HAL already completed LSP and delivered those to Armed forces, DRDO completed development of helicopter launched atgm, both IAF and IA satisficed with the results, now they are ready to order, the nos depends on funds and MoD, not armed forces. GoI need to increase defense budget around 3~3.5% GDP.
The armed forces are unable to spend their capex and returning it back to the Finance Ministry unspent. So why do you seek an increase ?
P-7i, Namica and MMRCA are all too little and too late.
F-35 has thousands of orders both from USA and it’s partner nations and not like any Indian OEM.
Manufacturing capacity exists at Bharat Forge with a capacity to produce a gun per day and is currently executing the order of 90 ATAGS for Armenia. Moreover, the order of 307 will be split between Bharat Forge and TATA. Just 150 howitzers wouldn’t help both break even.
 

johnj

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The armed forces are unable to spend their capex and returning it back to the Finance Ministry unspent. So why do you seek an increase ?
lol, becz MoD unable to clear orders
P-7i, Namica and MMRCA are all too little and too late.
Due to MOD
F-35 has thousands of orders both from USA and it’s partner nations and not like any Indian OEM.
lol, not even close to their actual requirement, and facing engine issue, upgrading issue etc
Manufacturing capacity exists at Bharat Forge with a capacity to produce a gun per day and is currently executing the order of 90 ATAGS for Armenia. Moreover, the order of 307 will be split between Bharat Forge and TATA. Just 150 howitzers wouldn’t help both break even.
lol
All Guns delved already, to Armenia
And when Bharat Forge deliver all guns[to IA], in 6 months ??
Even if Bharat Forge make & deliver 1500 guns in a day, IA need at least half decade to effectively use them in battle
Also those F35 nos not given in a day, but took a decade and more
IA and IAF already ordered and operating a large no.of alh, rudhra, akash, pinaka etc and all these not ordered in a day, but in many batches and took more than a decade

FYI- Manufacturers & Supporting are two different things. Developing logistics, ammo & its storage, training HRM, transportation etc also need time and money

Also IA need money to buy dhanush package, lch, atgm, ak, drones, mbt, etc etc with warfighting capabilities

Also TATA is new to this business, if GoI give all orders at once, TATA find hard to match Gov org. and end up a disaster GoI knows exactly what they are doing, unlike you.

Further order of ATAGS happen in batches, both ATAGS and dhanush becomes major part of IA artillery
In the case of LCH, IA & IAF order as much as possible in the first place, same goes with LUH[after LSP], and more order for dhanush in 25~26.
ATMOS don't case any major issue to ATAGS or dhanush, but spike may cause issue, if IAF demand spike nlos in LCH. EW, Maws, dircm etc may delay LCH delivery
 

prateikf

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lol, becz MoD unable to clear orders

Due to MOD

lol, not even close to their actual requirement, and facing engine issue, upgrading issue etc

lol
All Guns delved already, to Armenia
And when Bharat Forge deliver all guns[to IA], in 6 months ??
Even if Bharat Forge make & deliver 1500 guns in a day, IA need at least half decade to effectively use them in battle
Also those F35 nos not given in a day, but took a decade and more
IA and IAF already ordered and operating a large no.of alh, rudhra, akash, pinaka etc and all these not ordered in a day, but in many batches and took more than a decade

FYI- Manufacturers & Supporting are two different things. Developing logistics, ammo & its storage, training HRM, transportation etc also need time and money

Also IA need money to buy dhanush package, lch, atgm, ak, drones, mbt, etc etc with warfighting capabilities

Also TATA is new to this business, if GoI give all orders at once, TATA find hard to match Gov org. and end up a disaster GoI knows exactly what they are doing, unlike you.

Further order of ATAGS happen in batches, both ATAGS and dhanush becomes major part of IA artillery
In the case of LCH, IA & IAF order as much as possible in the first place, same goes with LUH[after LSP], and more order for dhanush in 25~26.
ATMOS don't case any major issue to ATAGS or dhanush, but spike may cause issue, if IAF demand spike nlos in LCH. EW, Maws, dircm etc may delay LCH delivery
Ok. But why blame MOD only? Is our Army infallible? The previous Defence Minister the late Parrikar had blamed Army’s penchant for “Marvel comics” weaponry for the failed acquisition mess. The army’s RFI/RFP often contain unrealistic requirements which no OEM can match and that’s what Parrikar was pointing out.
 

HariPrasad-1

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156 LCH to be bought by IAF alone, taking total orders to 181.
I think that Tejas MK1 is a compulsion. Had MWF been ready in time, IAF would have got a next level of capability like air raid, deep penetration strike etc at a fractionally higher cost. Our issue is that nothing comes in time. Had MWF been ready by 2025, we would not be thinking to buy additional 114 MMRCA.
 

HariPrasad-1

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This is a great machine. We need to work on cost cutting and adding new features is key to make it a standard chopper across the world for this category. In terms of payload and performance, it can easily surpass Chinese Z10 like medium category chopper. Even 1200 KN engine is undertrial. Putting 1200 KN engine will further improve the performance in terms of Payload, altitude etc. and will make it compete it with other choppers one stage above its category.
 

johnj

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Ok. But why blame MOD only? Is our Army infallible? The previous Defence Minister the late Parrikar had blamed Army’s penchant for “Marvel comics” weaponry for the failed acquisition mess. The army’s RFI/RFP often contain unrealistic requirements which no OEM can match and that’s what Parrikar was pointing out.
This type of situation arise when some one try to add a new type of future equipment
Its like a common person who ask to a shopkeeper for a improved smart phone with all features of iphone, android, blakeberry & feature phone, after getting a lottery
Its common with all armed forces - asking for “Marvel comics” weaponry - to meet their requirement & to understand similar weapons used by others including enemy
Best ex. IN and Aus RFI/RFP for next gen sub.
 

patriots

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I wonder why this is news. 3-4 yrs back when HAL Tumkur was being set up exclusively for hptr mfg, it was stated in a press release that at peak capacity HAL Tumkur had the ability to churn out 75-100 hptrs of various classes per annum PROVIDED orders aren't split into piece meal ones.
Already 15 of lch lsp s are delivered
And order of lch still not cleared by mod
Hal is good in helicopter production
We have seen dhruv helicopter s in hal shelter due non availability of shelter with iaf , because hal had produced them before time
 

patriots

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As per my knowledge we have acquired the mistral launcher for the LCH but not the missile itself owing to high costs. The Mistral missile can be easily integrated when and if acquired by our MOD or a foreign partner. At present our LCH lacks an Air to Air missile.
Mistral can be ordered from bdl , could know in defence expo or from bdl annual brochure
Again once mpdms systems is ready,one of its variant will be integrated with lch ,might be
 

Kumaoni

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This type of situation arise when some one try to add a new type of future equipment
Its like a common person who ask to a shopkeeper for a improved smart phone with all features of iphone, android, blakeberry & feature phone, after getting a lottery
Its common with all armed forces - asking for “Marvel comics” weaponry - to meet their requirement & to understand similar weapons used by others including enemy
Best ex. IN and Aus RFI/RFP for next gen sub.
So funny.
Army requests for thousands of things yearly
And the MoD believes Jetpacks are more important
Very telling of whose ruining what.
 

prateikf

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This type of situation arise when some one try to add a new type of future equipment
Its like a common person who ask to a shopkeeper for a improved smart phone with all features of iphone, android, blakeberry & feature phone, after getting a lottery
Its common with all armed forces - asking for “Marvel comics” weaponry - to meet their requirement & to understand similar weapons used by others including enemy
Best ex. IN and Aus RFI/RFP for next gen sub.
The Navy’s RFI/RFP is a joke among international defence vendors with several vendors including the Russians stating that such a sub simply does not exist and will take a long time to design and manufacture. What’s the point in becoming a laughing stock internationally and issuing meaningless RFI/RFP that will lead nowhere? Even major defence vendors like H&K, FN Fal etc did not even bother to reply to army’s RFI. Pity our RFI’s have ended up as a joke these days.
 

Blademaster

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The Navy’s RFI/RFP is a joke among international defence vendors with several vendors including the Russians stating that such a sub simply does not exist and will take a long time to design and manufacture. What’s the point in becoming a laughing stock internationally and issuing meaningless RFI/RFP that will lead nowhere? Even major defence vendors like H&K, FN Fal etc did not even bother to reply to army’s RFI. Pity our RFI’s have ended up as a joke these days.
wrong thread
 

Azaad

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“No need to import attack helicopters…” IAF Chief highlights power of Made-in-India LCH Prachand
I wonder if the IA shares the same sentiments. There's already an internal war brewing between IA & IAF on imports of the Apache with the IA quite peeved on being looked over in favour of the IAF which got 22 nos .

Since then they've been moving heaven & earth seeking parity only managing 6 nos for their pains. IIRC the total nos to be procured were between 38-44 nos of which we have 28 nos.
 

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