HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

NoobWannaLearn

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They won't ever do a direct invasion.

They'll use Pakistan, Indian Muslims and a remote possibility of Christians in North-East to fuel separatist movements.
Their recent announcement about sending money to ne churches in name of tribe preservation is just that gonna sponser lots of missionaries I hope some visit to sentinel Island again
 

Indx TechStyle

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I am sorry if i ask too much, can we ever compete with US in defence, think about worst situation when US wants to attack India, is we able to defend ourselves ? down the line in next 30-40 years this might situation arrive. Are we thinking in this line also ?
This is not joke, mark my word in 10-20 years this going to be true.
US won't ever directly attack North Korea or Iran. Leave alone India or China.
 

DumbPilot

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1664964756043.png


LCH Prachand right over my house. Fearsome sight.. I could hear them only when they were about 7-8 seconds away from visual sight. Flying probably at 300-400ft.

Picture from 3rd pass. I swear there were actually 4 helis in the first pass, though(wasn't able to picture them).
 

Chinmoy

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You are talking totally unrelated topic. I don’t care bout the politics here but care of proper weaponisation of the fleet we have. We have 70 Rudra in service. It does not have in service Mistral or ATGM missiles. Have been tested yes but not ordered.
So do not put words in my mouth please

Have you read the article or made your conclusion just by going through the headline?
 

prateikf

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The below article mentions that a new Air to Air Missile and not the Mistral will be procured for the LCH. Any idea which that would be ? Also, since Mistral specific launchers have already been purchased and integrated by HAL on LCH would the new missile be compatible with it or the launchers would require to be changed at an enormous cost ??
 

Rajaraja Chola

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HAL ordered it, Without consulating MOD.
HAL ordered what army/IAF wants. French company won based on tender issued in 2004.Even if HAL has ordered it, much time has been spent onit’s development and integration. It’s already poor optics that Rudras are I equipped for nearly a decade now , these birds are not ready for war yet.Just order Mistral and keep the armed forces on ready state till an local missile is developed
 

Chinmoy

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I did. Why don’t you enlighten me why MoD ordered Mistral missile launchers and not the actual mistral missiles itself
Then lets read the article again for once...

What article did start with :

Well, here’s the truth. The HAL Rudra doesn’t have most of its weapons despite an arming effort that technically began 17 years ago in 2002. Bear with us as we start at the beginning.
Reality:
Rudra took off its first flight in 2008. In 1998 when the project was sanctioned, it was planned for "Anti-Tank, Anti-Submarine warfare, Combat air support and unarmed role". In 2005 it was revised to include additional system like Air to Air and Shakti engine.

But as per Livefist, it all started in 2002 and tender has been floated for an ATAM which is to be integrated on a system which has not yet taken off. In standing committee of defence report 2007, it was clearly mentioned as the additional role for Rudra was sanctioned only on 2005. The stage gets set here.

Now comes the interesting part.

What the article says :

In 2014, the government issued a request for proposal (RfP) for the actual Mistral missiles, a requirement of over 400 missiles to arm at least 50 Rudra helicopters. This was necessarily a single vendor RfP since the 2006 ATAM contract award was based on the Mistral being competitively chosen — the two go together, and the ATAM cannot launch a different weapon (The LCH airframes began getting their ATAM launchers in 2015-16).
Reality:
Rudra fired its first Mistral back in 2011. Which effectively means that even before issuing the RFP in 2014, missiles were procured for ALHs. Please keep this point in mind.

Now lets come to the gem of reporting here. This report is of February 2019 which is presenting a situation according to which, Rudras are flying without any ATAM. But in same breadth, they have written this too.
Meanwhile, in August 2018, HAL ordered a second batch of an unspecified number of Mistral-specific ATAM launchers for the Rudras it was continuing to build for the Indian Army. The Army currently has nearly 40 Rudras across three operational squadrons, with plans to raise four more squadrons for a total fleet of 78 helicopters.
HAL ordered unspecified numbers of Mistral back in 2018. But they are concerned in 2019 that Rudra is flying without any ATAM.

WHY? Lets have a look at that too.

In 2014, the government issued a request for proposal (RfP) for the actual Mistral missiles, a requirement of over 400 missiles to arm at least 50 Rudra helicopters.
Now here is the real pain. Although the report has not cited the amount, it is of 3000 Crore. Livefist has made the 3k crore deal stuck up looks like a dire cause for IAF and IA when it comes to ATAM. Although they have smartly left aside the emergency purchase power under which user can directly order the missiles.

Now lets have a look at another gem in the article here.

In August 2016, while negotiations continued between the Indian MoD and MBDA, HAL floated a new tender to select a new air-to-air missile for the Rudra and LCH — obviously this would also involve a new launcher. While interest was shown from Russia’s Igla once again and the U.S. Stinger (a weapon system on the Boeing AH-64E Apaches for the IAF), this didn’t move forward given that the Rudra and LCH, as mentioned above, had already been integrated with the Mistral-specific ATAM launchers — and reversing the situation by dismantling and removing the said launchers would involve signficant cost, quite apart from what was spent in the integration already.
Now Russkies are crazy as per many here, but do tell me, from when on Stinger became an ATAM?
In their quest to defend Mistral for VSHORAD deal, in which Igla got selected by sidelining MBDA in same year, they have mixed up a great deal.

HAL sources familiar with the procurement process tell Livefist the benchmarking of price for the Mistral missile was questionably low, considering that cost specifics had been known and predictable from at least as far back as 2007, and likely earlier. Additionally, the quotes on the Mistral missiles were comparable to missile costs stipulated in another major procurement contest, the VSHORADS missile bid. The benchmarking discrepancy, an MoD source said, was as much as 60 per cent. The HAL sources cited above said there was reason to wonder if someone was trying to ‘derail’ the procurement of missiles for the Rudra and Light Combat Helicopter, considering that the price benchmarking discrepancy was so inordinately high. The floating of a second RFI in 2016, the source suggests, was to apply routine pressure during negotiations.
With so many unnamed sources, Livefist is trying to defend the MBDA deal. But same Livefist couple of years back wrote this.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/under-pressure-from-bdl-mbda-indian/



Hope you could see the reason why this kind of article gets written. Flying without Mistral doesn't mean that it is not there. Every missile has its self life which gets down the moment you start flying with them. How many MKIs have you seen flying with Astra? Non signing of a ToT deal doesn't mean that you don't have the system. There is always the option of getting them off-the-shelf.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Then lets read the article again for once...

What article did start with :



Reality:
Rudra took off its first flight in 2008. In 1998 when the project was sanctioned, it was planned for "Anti-Tank, Anti-Submarine warfare, Combat air support and unarmed role". In 2005 it was revised to include additional system like Air to Air and Shakti engine.

But as per Livefist, it all started in 2002 and tender has been floated for an ATAM which is to be integrated on a system which has not yet taken off. In standing committee of defence report 2007, it was clearly mentioned as the additional role for Rudra was sanctioned only on 2005. The stage gets set here.

Now comes the interesting part.

What the article says :



Reality:
Rudra fired its first Mistral back in 2011. Which effectively means that even before issuing the RFP in 2014, missiles were procured for ALHs. Please keep this point in mind.

Now lets come to the gem of reporting here. This report is of February 2019 which is presenting a situation according to which, Rudras are flying without any ATAM. But in same breadth, they have written this too.


HAL ordered unspecified numbers of Mistral back in 2018. But they are concerned in 2019 that Rudra is flying without any ATAM.

WHY? Lets have a look at that too.



Now here is the real pain. Although the report has not cited the amount, it is of 3000 Crore. Livefist has made the 3k crore deal stuck up looks like a dire cause for IAF and IA when it comes to ATAM. Although they have smartly left aside the emergency purchase power under which user can directly order the missiles.

Now lets have a look at another gem in the article here.



Now Russkies are crazy as per many here, but do tell me, from when on Stinger became an ATAM?
In their quest to defend Mistral for VSHORAD deal, in which Igla got selected by sidelining MBDA in same year, they have mixed up a great deal.



With so many unnamed sources, Livefist is trying to defend the MBDA deal. But same Livefist couple of years back wrote this.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/under-pressure-from-bdl-mbda-indian/



Hope you could see the reason why this kind of article gets written. Flying without Mistral doesn't mean that it is not there. Every missile has its self life which gets down the moment you start flying with them. How many MKIs have you seen flying with Astra? Non signing of a ToT deal doesn't mean that you don't have the system. There is always the option of getting them off-the-shelf.
First it’s Livefist. It’s a reputed defence website handled by Shiv Aroor. Second, have an idea on how development and testing works.

The developer has to plan ahead to get approvals, RFP even for testing. I had said before in an previous conversation, what Army/IAF wants and what MoD wants is different on many occasions. Bureaucrat have no idea on how tech is developed and rather look only from a cost point of view.

Small order of missiles are “always” ordered for design, testing and validation of the system in development. Those units are mostly used for test firing and integration. HAL might have ordered 50 units.

After that it’s the MoD, army and IAF needs to figure out the final figure. If youa are aware, the designer of VandeT18 train faced corruption allegations and was transferred saying they did not order parts through proper RFP. He hit back saying, R&D is different and they are allowed to have single vendor in R&D scenarios. Finally he was cleared and T18 is progressing now, with the same vendor now winning 100+ traction system or something similar order.

The report is not contradicting. HAL might have ordered more Mistrals for LCH test firing too. HAL does not order on the behalf of Army or AF. Whatever emergency powers armed forces have, they were given to order to the tune of 300 crore only after Galwan. That was in 2020. This article was in 2019. After Feb 19, they used their emergency power to order A2A missiles and SDR for our fighters.

Things are not ordered after they are flown. Stuffs are designed around parts they have ordered. In this case, the launchers. HAL has done the right thing in specifying armaments even before designing. This is the way R&D works. It’s the MoD which is playing stupid by keeping our helis unarmed. Our Sukhois atleast regularly use their missiles in exercises. Our helis don’t even do that cos they don’t have the missiles rather than the ones ordered by HAL for testing. I do agree armed forces have a tiny number for emergencies. But that’s it
 

Saichand K

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Is there any comparison between HAL prachand and Apache with regards to armor protection ?
 

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