HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Observation Helicopter (LOH)

Aniruddha Mulay

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Lol, thanks for showing your true colours.

It was never about there being 2 distinct requirements that could only be fulfilled by 2 different types.

It was just about drooling over any non-HAL product. :laugh: I've been critical of DPSUs in my own right, but never so mindlessly as this.
HAL is going to have the last laugh here, whether Ka-226 or LUH are ordered or if both are ordered.
 

abingdonboy

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@Gessler need to do a back of the envelope calculation of known capital procurement pipeline of all branches. just to get a ball park number on future acquisition costs.

have you come across any such recent calculation ?
These are the kind of figures that have been used to create headlines in recent years:



Works out to $18-25bn in CAPEX for the 3 forces for the next 5-7 years, nothing breath taking, I'm pretty sure this number is in line with the modest CAPEX increases over the last 2-3 years.


Basically pure PR spin, no major spikes in spending can be expected and I'm sure that as a % of GDP defence will drop below 1.4% by the time 2024 hits.
 

ezsasa

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These are the kind of figures that have been used to create headlines in recent years:



Works out to $18-25bn in CAPEX for the 3 forces for the next 5-7 years, nothing breath taking, I'm pretty sure this number is in line with the modest CAPEX increases over the last 2-3 years.


Basically pure PR spin, no major spikes in spending can be expected and I'm sure that as a % of GDP defence will drop below 1.4% by the time 2024 hits.
Payments for S400 + MH60R + C295 + LCA alone in 5-7 years will be close to 15 billion $.
we need to have our own DFI estimate. will start a thread to arrive at an estimate for atleast the big ticket items.
 

Flying Dagger

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Lol, as of now even Ka226 is a big fat 0 whether its for LUH or NUH.

At least HAL LUH actually got order for 6 airframes.


So don't talk about "for now".



The only "dumb sh!t" here is you thinking Jag was an alternative for M2K.

FYI, the IAF had a saying for the Jag - that it only takes off because of the curvature of the Earth :laugh:

To think such an underpowered plane was somehow considered an alternative for M2K (which can go toe to toe with F16 in dogfight) is absurd.

What the SEPECAT team was trying to do was to accommodate their offer in case IAF (under pressure from GOI) decides to expand the MiG-29 fleet. As the Fulcrum was not as capable in A2G as it was in A2A, the SEPECAT's plan was to offer further Jags as a dedicated A2G CAS aircraft.

The IAF acquisition of M2K was a direct consequence of PAF plans for F-16.

Even today, when IAF wants to conduct a deep-penetration strike, their first choice remains M2K (i.e. Balakot), as the M2K is uniquely suited for a multi-role situation, it can easily defend itself in A2A in a pinch, without needing to assign a different squadron (like MKI) to provide escort support. A strike package of M2Ks from the same squadron (in this case, Battleaxes) can be configured in both A2G & A2A roles and perform the job splendidly.

No other IAF plane can perform a better multi-role job*. The MKI can't conduct low-altitude flights as well as M2K can, the Jag cannot defend itself as well as M2K can, the MiGs - forget it. Only time they can fly as low as M2K is when they're about to crash. Which is why M2K is always first choice for deep strike.

Only way you can conduct such an operation with non-M2K fleet is if you deploy twice as many squadrons with twice as many (if not more) engines & pilots. A maintenance nightmare that will result in sortie rate quickly dropping deeper you go into conflict.

The entirety of MiG-29 & Jaguar fleet could have been easily substituted by half the number of M2K if it wasn't for politics. Imagine how many billions it could have saved over the years, and how much it would have simplified logistics.

*Except Rafale ofcourse.



Lol, another made-up claim to justify a political deal.

If so then why didn't they procure a different 5.5 ton twin-engine helo to "hedge bets" against Dhruv?

And if hedging bets was the norm, where is our hedge against Su-30MKI? Are we planning on buying F-15?

:rotfl:

This is what I meant when I said "tail wagging the dog". You can't be tailoring the question to fit the answer buddy, its supposed to work the other way round.

The only justification a political deal requires is that its political (i.e. my original claim), it does not require any capability bias.



FYI, Navy already ordered over a dozen Dhruv and buying more to perform a multitude of roles.

The version of ALH tailored for NUH requirement is being worked on (the tail-folding is demonstrated to that end). But a lease is just that - a lease, a temporary measure for short-term. IN is nowhere close to placing definitive orders for NUH, and when they do, ALH will be in a very good position - a far better position than Ka226 which so far won 0 orders from any branch of Indian military, for which no Indian production line exists, and for which the political compulsion to order will end with the 197 helo deal.



The same for you, Mr. I-can't-decide-what-my-argument-is.



It's typical when you lose any ground for a good argument but decide to keep going on so as not to lose face, the BS comes tumbling out of the mouth.

When I make a mistake, I admit it and learn from it (like on the nuclear submarine thread), but unkul ji here cannot.

Again half baked shit... With nothing to do with topic... In b/w 50+ Ka 226 are ordered and in production apart from the 200 .


Regarding Jags bs Mirage 2k...



Everyone but you knows it was Anglo French vs French... Jet in the mix.

Where Mirage wasn't even shown to IAF first but as I said before it was bought because our royal prince of that time liked it in an airshow.

Mirage was a multirole means it could be configured for different role ( not swing role )

Mig 27 was already going to enter soon.

One fighter jet which was absolutely different out of these was Mig 29 which IAF tested and gave a go ahead for air-superiority.

Regarding Jags only fly because of curvature of earth joke... well that wasn't 80s but later when the thrust of engine reduced by over 30% and new avionics made their way in with Darin 1/2 upgrades. So thats another lie that you heard and tried to push into somewhere it doesn't stand .


Don't just throw something anywhere and hope that it will stick...


1. We may buy Tejas buy that doesn't make it better than Rafale because they are purchased in smaller number. It only means we are doing it due to cost factor and to support our industry .

Now instead of beating around the bush.... Just do yoga or something and find your sanity.


You think Ka 226 T is just for politics . I disagree

I said it's a better one which it is

In budget... And we were going to purchase another type anyway.

You can disagree as much as you want without throwing made up stuff abt things you don't know. Period.
 

Covfefe

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Again half baked shit... With nothing to do with topic... In b/w 50+ Ka 226 are ordered and in production apart from the 200 .


Regarding Jags bs Mirage 2k...



Everyone but you knows it was Anglo French vs French... Jet in the mix.

Where Mirage wasn't even shown to IAF first but as I said before it was bought because our royal prince of that time liked it in an airshow.

Mirage was a multirole means it could be configured for different role ( not swing role )

Mig 27 was already going to enter soon.

One fighter jet which was absolutely different out of these was Mig 29 which IAF tested and gave a go ahead for air-superiority.

Regarding Jags only fly because of curvature of earth joke... well that wasn't 80s but later when the thrust of engine reduced by over 30% and new avionics made their way in with Darin 1/2 upgrades. So thats another lie that you heard and tried to push into somewhere it doesn't stand .


Don't just throw something anywhere and hope that it will stick...


1. We may buy Tejas buy that doesn't make it better than Rafale because they are purchased in smaller number. It only means we are doing it due to cost factor and to support our industry .

Now instead of beating around the bush.... Just do yoga or something and find your sanity.


You think Ka 226 T is just for politics . I disagree

I said it's a better one which it is

In budget... And we were going to purchase another type anyway.

You can disagree as much as you want without throwing made up stuff abt things you don't know. Period.
In case they go for Ka226, it's better not to push for Make in India or ToT drama. It increases the cost significantly, at times downgrades the quality, and nothing great comes out of the ToT premium.
 

Gessler

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Again half baked shit... With nothing to do with topic... In b/w 50+ Ka 226 are ordered and in production apart from the 200 .
Lol, by who. Nobody give a damn about what some other country order. Their requirements are different & their politics are different.

Regarding Jags bs Mirage 2k...



Everyone but you knows it was Anglo French vs French... Jet in the mix.

Where Mirage wasn't even shown to IAF first but as I said before it was bought because our royal prince of that time liked it in an airshow.

Mirage was a multirole means it could be configured for different role ( not swing role )

Mig 27 was already going to enter soon.

One fighter jet which was absolutely different out of these was Mig 29 which IAF tested and gave a go ahead for air-superiority.

Regarding Jags only fly because of curvature of earth joke... well that wasn't 80s but later when the thrust of engine reduced by over 30% and new avionics made their way in with Darin 1/2 upgrades. So thats another lie that you heard and tried to push into somewhere it doesn't stand .


Don't just throw something anywhere and hope that it will stick...
Already explained in detail what was the dynamic here. If you can't be bothered to understand the real story, that's your problem.

1. We may buy Tejas buy that doesn't make it better than Rafale because they are purchased in smaller number. It only means we are doing it due to cost factor and to support our industry .

Now instead of beating around the bush.... Just do yoga or something and find your sanity.

You think Ka 226 T is just for politics . I disagree
Lol, ok then. Show me in which ASQR it says twin-engine will be preferred.

I said it's a better one which it is

In budget... And we were going to purchase another type anyway.
Which is just as ridiculous an assertion now as it was the first time you said it.
 

Flying Dagger

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Lol, by who. Nobody give a damn about what some other country order. Their requirements are different & their politics are different.



Already explained in detail what was the dynamic here. If you can't be bothered to understand the real story, that's your problem.



Lol, ok then. Show me in which ASQR it says twin-engine will be preferred.



Which is just as ridiculous an assertion now as it was the first time you said it.
Lol by who ? Yeah lfmao to the degree of burnt you got... The num is certainly more than 6 , not to forget LUH is ordered because it's a HAL product .


the story.... ? Well the one you made up with false e.g. <removed by mod>

All have been exposed and dumped to ground with facts. You can still be a crybaby about it doesn't matter.

And did mmrca mentioned twin engine ?

Nope but they picked twin engine typhoon and Rafale and eventually went for Rafale.

LUH didn't had to go through a competition to be selected.

There is nothing as ridiculous as a parrot parroting the dumb lies... Where you have the mastery and can continue to do so.
 
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Gessler

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Lol by who ? Yeah lfmao to the degree of burnt you got... The num is certainly more than 6 , not to forget LUH is ordered because it's a HAL product .
Lol, so its possible to buy this because of politics but not Ka226. Yea right :crazy:

the story.... ? Well the one you made up with false e.g. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚ atleast own your shit dude.
Own my sh!t?

Dude, I owned you !!

:rotfl:

All have been exposed and dumped to ground with facts.
Yeah in your dreams. Whatever helps you sleep at night unkul.

This is getting funny now.

And did mmrca mentioned twin engine ?

Nope but they picked twin engine typhoon and Rafale and eventually went for Rafale.
That's where the difference is! They actually selected Rafale as L1 and ultimately went with them in G2G.

But when did we select Ka226 ?? The tender was canceled without any L1 declared, Ka226 was never selected. The Eurocopter Fennec was believed to be the frontrunner - and in a previous tender, the Fennec was actually selected as L1.

We canceled a tender without choosing anything, then pulled the Ka226 out of a$$ for political reasons. Heck, that was the reason why tender had to be cancelled in first place - cuz otherwise Fennec would have won again! And if they waited till L1 declaration happens, then cancel & go with L2, the L1 company would have dragged Govt to court.

Otherwise why cancel the tender, could have just stay put and saw it through to the end? The number of helos to be purchased did not change (same 197), the method of purchase (few off the shelf buy, then license production) did not change, the local assembly agency (HAL) did not change - so why cancel & go for G2G for the same contract? Unless afraid that Ka226 was going to lose?

In Rafale we had to do it because license-production clause was scrapped, and number of planes to be bought reduced from 126 to 36, and local offset contractor changed from HAL to Reliance, requiring whole new math.

Not the case with Ka226 deal - so stop trying to draw a false equivalence, there is none.

LUH didn't had to go through a competition to be selected.
LOL - talking as if Ka226 was selected in a competition.

breaking news: it wasn't

Secondly, there is no need to compete because the purpose of competition was to see which foreign helicopter (which were all built to very different specifications) suits our needs best. When HAL was developing LUH, it was tailor-made for Armed Forces' requirements from the start.

And it achieved these requirements fair & square, IOC has been given to both Army & Air Force version, and LSP orders already placed, and now moving toward FOC. All this after a first flight conducted only in September 2016!

Meanwhile, the Ka-226T inter-governmental agreement was signed in 2015 (a year before LUH even made first flight), and till now nothing happened 6 years later.

ROFL.

πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

There is nothing as ridiculous as a parrot parroting the dumb lies... Where you have the mastery and can continue to do so.
I think people reading this thread are quite clear on who the dumb parrot is.
 

Covfefe

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@Gessler @Flying Dagger you both contribute good stuff. Just let this heli discussion beπŸ˜… For all we know nothing will be selected till the next military build-up near the borders
 

Flying Dagger

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Lol, so its possible to buy this because of politics but not Ka226. Yea right :crazy:



Own my sh!t?

Dude, I owned you !!

:rotfl:



Yeah in your dreams. Whatever helps you sleep at night unkul.

This is getting funny now.



That's where the difference is! They actually selected Rafale as L1 and ultimately went with them in G2G.

But when did we select Ka226 ?? The tender was canceled without any L1 declared, Ka226 was never selected. The Eurocopter Fennec was believed to be the frontrunner - and in a previous tender, the Fennec was actually selected as L1.

We canceled a tender without choosing anything, then pulled the Ka226 out of a$$ for political reasons. Heck, that was the reason why tender had to be cancelled in first place - cuz otherwise Fennec would have won again! And if they waited till L1 declaration happens, then cancel & go with L2, the L1 company would have dragged Govt to court.

Otherwise why cancel the tender, could have just stay put and saw it through to the end? The number of helos to be purchased did not change (same 197), the method of purchase (few off the shelf buy, then license production) did not change, the local assembly agency (HAL) did not change - so why cancel & go for G2G for the same contract? Unless afraid that Ka226 was going to lose?

In Rafale we had to do it because license-production clause was scrapped, and number of planes to be bought reduced from 126 to 36, and local offset contractor changed from HAL to Reliance, requiring whole new math.

Not the case with Ka226 deal - so stop trying to draw a false equivalence, there is none.



LOL - talking as if Ka226 was selected in a competition.

breaking news: it wasn't

Secondly, there is no need to compete because the purpose of competition was to see which foreign helicopter (which were all built to very different specifications) suits our needs best. When HAL was developing LUH, it was tailor-made for Armed Forces' requirements from the start.

And it achieved these requirements fair & square, IOC has been given to both Army & Air Force version, and LSP orders already placed, and now moving toward FOC. All this after a first flight conducted only in September 2016!

Meanwhile, the Ka-226T inter-governmental agreement was signed in 2015 (a year before LUH even made first flight), and till now nothing happened 6 years later.

ROFL.

πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚



I think people reading this thread are quite clear on who the dumb parrot is.

Even primary class student got more brain , class and argument than your repetitive rhetoric.

Buying HAL product.... To be equated with buying Ka 226 T as part of same political compulsion is literal stupid.

Russia doesn't own us and can't certainly force us to not use our own product specially in current political environment

Kamov isn't an Indian company like HAL to be preferred over domestic product if they were of same quality /capability.

And... Beta ji
Everything is tailor made by HAL etc for defense requirement doesn't mean it's best for us... for e.g. they build Tejas for us... But we still bought Rafale etc.

And Mirage 2k crash, Sukhoi crash Dhruva rotor breaking down.. etc are some of the shining e.g. of its shoddy quality and maintenance job.


Ka 226 T was definitely tested for the job before being picked up and not to forget their commendable history. Such decisions aren't just made out of nowhere unlike what you think.

While HAL has a bad record to its name.

Regarding delay in ka 226 T production schedule.. well that's how bureaucracy cost negotiation works here...

The current mess IAF is in for training aircraft is due to the similar reason where HAL couldn't do the job but delayed and blocked the import with its pretty sweet lies.

Note : Reliance is not the only Indian party for Offset nor Dassault is sole company responsible for offset but have Safran MBDA etc involved in this.



But yeahh continue parroting πŸ™‚
 

Gessler

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Even primary class student got more brain , class and argument than your repetitive rhetoric.
Ah, you're back for more kicking.

Good, I was getting bored.

Buying HAL product.... To be equated with buying Ka 226 T as part of same political compulsion is literal stupid.
Keep telling yourself that.

Russia doesn't own us and can't certainly force us to not use our own product specially in current political environment
There's a difference between owning & having leverage. Russia doesn't own us, but it sure has a LOT of leverage.

Enough leverage that they can sell us a rustbucket of a ship for over $2 billion.

And... Beta ji
Everything is tailor made by HAL etc for defense requirement doesn't mean it's best for us... for e.g. they build Tejas for us... But we still bought Rafale etc.
Tejas = LIGHT combat aircraft (LCA)

Rafale = MEDIUM multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA)

For [email protected]'s sake...its in the name !! :rofl:

Meanwhile, both HAL LUH & Ka226 are being procured under the same requirement = LIGHT utility helicopter (LUH).

I have stated repeatedly that this is like buying both Rafale & Typhoon. Or like buying both Tejas & JF-17.

For some reason you fail to understand & keep repeating same old defeated arguments...probably because you can't think of anything new to say.

And Mirage 2k crash, Sukhoi crash Dhruva rotor breaking down.. etc are some of the shining e.g. of its shoddy quality and maintenance job.
I don't see you complaining when MiG-29K crashes every other time it takes off and how IN having to restrict flight hours because of poor airframe quality unsuitable for high-tempo carrier operations.
 

Flying Dagger

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Ah, you're back for more kicking.

Good, I was getting bored.



Keep telling yourself that.



There's a difference between owning & having leverage. Russia doesn't own us, but it sure has a LOT of leverage.

Enough leverage that they can sell us a rustbucket of a ship for over $2 billion.



Tejas = LIGHT combat aircraft (LCA)

Rafale = MEDIUM multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA)

For [email protected]'s sake...its in the name !! :rofl:

Meanwhile, both HAL LUH & Ka226 are being procured under the same requirement = LIGHT utility helicopter (LUH).

I have stated repeatedly that this is like buying both Rafale & Typhoon. Or like buying both Tejas & JF-17.

For some reason you fail to understand & keep repeating same old defeated arguments...probably because you can't think of anything new to say.



I don't see you complaining when MiG-29K crashes every other time it takes off and how IN having to restrict flight hours because of poor airframe quality unsuitable for high-tempo carrier operations.
Kicking ? Ohh you poor kid must have been bullied hard in school so trying to be an internet warrior πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Since you don't know shit abt anything... Here you go...


Mig 29 k weren't meant for sea operation nor its frame was designed for that Not to forget it's not russia fault if HAL get cheap Ukrainian knockoffs for spare.. having said that Mig 29 isn't the reason for HAL's poor record.

For fcuk sake... In the same mmrca we had gripen too IAF didn't rejected it saying single engine or light aircraft... πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Infact it is saab which is responsible for providing major avionics /ew suite for HAL LCH too. Why don't you complain on that 🀣

Continue kicking your own A with such dumb shit.
 

Gessler

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Since you don't know shit abt anything... Here you go...
I know very well who doesn't know sh!t and constantly tries to divert the topic because of that :laugh:

Mig 29 k weren't meant for sea operation nor its frame was designed for that Not to forget it's not russia fault if HAL get cheap Ukrainian knockoffs for spare.. having said that Mig 29 isn't the reason for HAL's poor record.

For fcuk sake... In the same mmrca we had gripen too IAF didn't rejected it saying single engine or light aircraft...
LOL, so what about the ship itself? Or what about the Kuznetsov that constantly keeps breaking down every other month? Another example of superb Russian engineering?

Do you know why we decided against purchasing MiG-35s?

I've said this before, and I say this again:

The ONLY reason we purchase Russian equipment is either because its a political deal, OR because they're the only option i.e. single-vendor situation. You will not find a Russian offer succeeding in ANY other circumstance. Go ahead and see for yourself.

Infact it is saab which is responsible for providing major avionics /ew suite for HAL LCH too. Why don't you complain on that
So? When did I say we are better than SAAB/Western companies?

LOL, unable to show Russians as competitive, so bring in the West out of your a$$ - typical. :pound:

Continue kicking your own A with such dumb shit.
Meh, I've been seeing the thread since your last 4-5 posts...nobody is buying what you're selling buddy. Give it up and save face while you still can.
 

Flying Dagger

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I know very well who doesn't know sh!t and constantly tries to divert the topic because of that :laugh:



LOL, so what about the ship itself? Or what about the Kuznetsov that constantly keeps breaking down every other month? Another example of superb Russian engineering?

Do you know why we decided against purchasing MiG-35s?

I've said this before, and I say this again:

The ONLY reason we purchase Russian equipment is either because its a political deal, OR because they're the only option i.e. single-vendor situation. You will not find a Russian offer succeeding in ANY other circumstance. Go ahead and see for yourself.



So? When did I say we are better than SAAB/Western companies?

LOL, unable to show Russians as competitive, so bring in the West out of your a$$ - typical. :pound:



Meh, I've been seeing the thread since your last 4-5 posts...nobody is buying what you're selling buddy. Give it up and save face while you still can.
You know something ?

That's why your half baked stuff were exposed? πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

And again trying to divert what ? It was abt LUH not good enough alone... And Ka 226 T a better option that we need .

It is you throwing stuff from here and there when unable to counter.

I have multiple times mentioned abt Panther too and its derivative and at the same time said it's abt balance of cost politics and req too specially in current situation when we have option . And in no way Russia can stop production of HAL's own products if they were superior.

It is you who said it's just politics and the heli is trash . That was the beginning of your dumb jibes.

Coming back to you have seen last few post and no one is buying what ?

Here is a fact for you.... It doesn't matter

If there are 100 stupids who think the procurement process today is such that it buys 200 helis which are inferior to ours but make Russia happy well I am not buying such shit.

See kiddo bullying doesn't work with me so you can go on and carry out your dumb wishes as much you want doesn't matter to me.
 

Gessler

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You know something ?

That's why your half baked stuff were exposed?
I know who's stuff is half-baked that you feel the need to change argument at every turn.

My initial argument: The Ka-226 deal is political. And you begin your baseless argument like this:

> "There is unique requirement for twin engine helo", and when unable to prove that...
> "It's for hedging bets", and when unable to prove that...
> "Deals always political, nothing wrong in that" - in other words, you basically admit that I was right. πŸ˜‚

And again trying to divert what ? It was abt LUH not good enough alone... And Ka 226 T a better option that we need .
Again, according to who? You ? LOL.

Show me where IAF or IA have stated that single-engine helos are not good enough and need twin-engine in same category.

And if your argument is about HAL products not being good enough, then show me what are the "hedged bets" against 5.5 ton Dhruv and LCA Tejas? Why did we not buy something like Airbus H175 and KAI FA-50 to hedge bets against these HAL products?

And these products are actually older than LUH, if anything quality & reliability showed increase over time.

See the logical fallacy of your ridiculous arguments?

Coming back to you have seen last few post and no one is buying what ?
Your trash arguments...you're basically just arguing for sake of arguing now. :laugh:

Your comments are devoid of any logical points and you've been consistently failing to answer the logical question I raised against your stupid arguments.

But you're welcome to keep up the charade, if you think you can salvage anything from this discussion by posting sh!t post after sh!t post you're welcome to try.

:yo:
 

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