HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Observation Helicopter (LOH)

Navnit Kundu

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The HTSE project has just started. It'll be quite a while before its ready for production. Till then it's the Shakti-1U that will drive the chopper game forward.
I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up. Can you give me a one line update on which engine will be used in which chopper and how many of them we are buying? Shakti derivatives will be used for Dhruv and LCA and the HTSE 1200 will be used for a newer model of some chopper? Do we have an Apache like heavy attack chopper in the pipeline?
 

AnantS

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I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up. Can you give me a one line update on which engine will be used in which chopper and how many of them we are buying? Shakti derivatives will be used for Dhruv and LCA and the HTSE 1200 will be used for a newer model of some chopper? Do we have an Apache like heavy attack chopper in the pipeline?
I believe HTSE would be used for future IMRH and HAL's future Naval Copter.
Shakti derivatives will never be used for LCA :) It needs different kind of Turbine
We are buying Apache. But I think once we have our own engine. You will see Apache Kind of Helicopters
 
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I believe HTSE would be used for future IMRH and HAL's future Naval Copter.
Shakti derivatives will never be used for LCA :) It needs different kind of Turbine
We are buying Apache. But I think once we have our own engine. You will see Apache Kind of Helicopters
India currently needs to get its own amphibious warfare helicopter.
Is LCH being configured for that?
 

AnantS

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India currently needs to get its own amphibious warfare helicopter.
Is LCH being configured for that?
Dont think so. LCH is not designed for that role. I think by Amphibious you mean which can land on water like Sea King and Mil Mi 14 helicopter? If HAL ever undertake such exercise, it would be with some future variant of heavy lift copter
 

Gessler

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I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up. Can you give me a one line update on which engine will be used in which chopper and how many of them we are buying? Shakti derivatives will be used for Dhruv and LCA and the HTSE 1200 will be used for a newer model of some chopper? Do we have an Apache like heavy attack chopper in the pipeline?
HAL does not have any other chopper in the pipeline other than the LCH and LUH. In the future we might see some improvements of the Dhruv (Mk.5 and so on), and possible naval versions of LUH as well as LCH.

The IMRH is only a proposal and is not being pursued by anyone at this point.

The Shakti family of engines (all based on Turbomeca Ardiden family) will be powering all of these choppers for the foreseeable future. The HTSE-1200 might come along as a replacement for Shakti-1U sometime down the line...but all the Shaktis delivered till then will stay on.

As of now there is no single chopper that's being developed with the HTSE in mind.
 

Navnit Kundu

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HAL does not have any other chopper in the pipeline other than the LCH and LUH. In the future we might see some improvements of the Dhruv (Mk.5 and so on), and possible naval versions of LUH as well as LCH.

The IMRH is only a proposal and is not being pursued by anyone at this point.

The Shakti family of engines (all based on Turbomeca Ardiden family) will be powering all of these choppers for the foreseeable future. The HTSE-1200 might come along as a replacement for Shakti-1U sometime down the line...but all the Shaktis delivered till then will stay on.

As of now there is no single chopper that's being developed with the HTSE in mind.
Thanks. One more question. Once we get the ToT for any weapons system to manufacture it under licence, say the Shakti engine, how does the foreign vendor keep tabs on how many units we are manufacturing. Apparently we even manufacture some pistol from WW2 under licence, till date. How does the vendor know that we haven't set up another factory elsewhere and bulk producing these weapons to dodge licence fees?
 

abingdonboy

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Does anyone know what will happen to Dhruv? Does it also fall under 'Light Utility Helicopter' category? And we are also buying Ka 226. Will all these 3 helicopters co-exist or are we going to scrap Dhruv?
Don't worry about the Dhruv, it is a success story and here to stay. Over 200 units are already in service, another 30 enter service every year and the services are still making further orders- the ALH's production doesn't look like it will be ceasing anytime soon. Despite it's "light" tag, it is more a medium class helo (on the lower end of the class) with 2 engines and the ability to carry 14-15 passengers.
 

abingdonboy

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and possible naval versions of LUH as well as LCH.
Hmm, I'm not so sure. The navy intentionally remained out of the LUH program and the LUH was built to IA and IAF specs not the IN's with the biggest restricton to naval service being it is single engined.

Addtionally, I can't see the LCH being navalised for a long long time (if ever). Where is the demand for such? India has no marine infantry force (although I hear rumours that the IN is looking to build one but it is a LONG way away) and furthermore the IN has intentionally pushed back the induction of the LHD/LPD and is focusing on more urgent projects (subs, carriers, destroyers etc) for the immediate future.
 

abingdonboy

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New LUH is 20% more powerful and much advanced than previous Dhruv and is planned to retire Dhruv when it gets aged. LUH will become ready by the time of retirement of Dhruv.
The LUH is not te ALH's replcement in any shape or form. The LUH is a lighter (and single engined) derivative of the ALH, it will compliment the ALH- not replace it.

The LUH is to replace the Cheetaks and Cheetahs primarily in the North where the IA/IAF needs a small light helo to support foreward bases- the ALH is still too large and heavy to get to the most remote bases.
 

abingdonboy

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I guess ALHs will be replaced in next 10-15 years. Will there be used something else for their replacement?
10-15 years? I don't think so. There's NOTHING wrong with the ALHs, they are doing a fine job in the IA and IAF, gradual upgrades to the engines and avionics (as HAL is doing) will keep these beasts around for a lot longer than that.

Already HAL is onto the MK.4 (already in service since 2012).
 

abingdonboy

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Good one HAL!!!

simple design and I love simplicity, looks like this can also used as a police observation chopper...
I think the LUH will have a huge market inside India outside of the armed forces. The CAPFs are surely going to be interested in it and many state police forces also.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Yaar, phir tb toh DRDO ki dash :censored:
They promised both LUH and LCA SP2 in February and March of last year. Now, they are saying by end of this year.
Seriously,
Our Navy is lucky who actually started build up with private Cos.
Army is also wise moving towards them.
Wish IAF also realizes it soon. :D

In the interview you read

They meant Dex - 2015

Read the date if article

Also read that operational clearance for basic model of luh in 2016
 

PaliwalWarrior

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I think the LUH will have a huge market inside India outside of the armed forces. The CAPFs are surely going to be interested in it and many state police forces also.
I don't think so

I think dhruv will be more suitable for the market segment you mentioned
 

PaliwalWarrior

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In wants dhruv with auto folding rotors

HAL has recently come up with folding rotors for dhruv ( or for all helps for that matter )

But still they need to be folded manually

They are working on auto folding rotors
 

Gessler

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Thanks. One more question. Once we get the ToT for any weapons system to manufacture it under licence, say the Shakti engine, how does the foreign vendor keep tabs on how many units we are manufacturing. Apparently we even manufacture some pistol from WW2 under licence, till date. How does the vendor know that we haven't set up another factory elsewhere and bulk producing these weapons to dodge licence fees?
Well, doing such would be against the law in the first place. And will be dealt with accordingly.

As of how they know...well, it basically depends on the nature of ToT involved. Most of the time, a lot of equipment comes in from abroad and is only assembled here. In most aircraft production deals, no matter how much ToT there is, still some component has to be delivered directly from the vendor country - so yeah through export control they can keep tabs on everything. Not including foreign officials from the supplier companies posted here.

Replicating a production line is not easy, borderline impossible if talking about aircraft. Unless the production takes place through third-party channels...even then if found plagiarizing an IP without written consent, sooner or later the entities carrying out that illegal production will have to pay up.
 

Gessler

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Hmm, I'm not so sure. The navy intentionally remained out of the LUH program and the LUH was built to IA and IAF specs not the IN's with the biggest restricton to naval service being it is single engined.
That's correct...but there is a scope for LUH-like helos in Coast Guard as well. Although it's likely ICG would choose to go with additional numbers of whatever IN buys.

Addtionally, I can't see the LCH being navalised for a long long time (if ever). Where is the demand for such? India has no marine infantry force (although I hear rumours that the IN is looking to build one but it is a LONG way away) and furthermore the IN has intentionally pushed back the induction of the LHD/LPD and is focusing on more urgent projects (subs, carriers, destroyers etc) for the immediate future.
Agreed again. It is a strict "may be"...didn't want to leave out any possibilities so I included it. Yes I did have the Naval Infantry forces in mind...but even then it's likely they could even go with the heavier Apache AH-64Es when they come to that point. No guarantee they'll buy N-LCH even then.

 

Gessler

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I don't think so

I think dhruv will be more suitable for the market segment you mentioned
No...for civil-type operators, purchase cost + operating cost is the most important factor and they will obviously prefer a lighter single-engine helo like LUH over a twin-engine one like Dhruv.

Even if you look internationally, most choppers operated by police divisions are always single-engined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPD_Air_Support_Division#Fleet
 

aditya g

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There is a Chetak replacement market across IN and ICG. At this time I think there is a good chance that Ka-226 will fulfill that role given Kamov's traditional presence in this space. Arguably Ka-226 is a better choice than LUH:

1. Twin engines

2. No tail rotor - better for deck safety

3. Wheels - prerequisite for ship based operation

LCH: No naval requirement but I do hope to see it in service with at least small numbers. For example, operate a couple of INS Vikramaditya for:

- sanitization and force protection in littorals
- Assist with small scale special ops by MARCOS.
- protect against drones

Hmm, I'm not so sure. The navy intentionally remained out of the LUH program and the LUH was built to IA and IAF specs not the IN's with the biggest restricton to naval service being it is single engined.

Addtionally, I can't see the LCH being navalised for a long long time (if ever). Where is the demand for such? India has no marine infantry force (although I hear rumours that the IN is looking to build one but it is a LONG way away) and furthermore the IN has intentionally pushed back the induction of the LHD/LPD and is focusing on more urgent projects (subs, carriers, destroyers etc) for the immediate future.
 

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