HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[patriots]

Well, yes. But it has to spend all its ammo on one target & go home... If it was only observing & guiding 155mm artillery shells from 50km away, there would be much more damage than a bunch of 70mm rockets.
That was my point.

For laser-guided rockets it'd would need to launch not a full spray, but only few pairs & continue on. Here i counted 24 volleys, meaning it had to launch all 48 rockets. View attachment 56225

Bro that Thales fz 70mm luncher can fire guided rockets...with little or no modification
It's upto mod whether they will buy or not...
For precise attack ,laser guided to rockets are good.....
But for larger target area...salvo of non guided rockets ,will be a cheapest option....
I have seen Apache carrying both guided and unguided rockets with same luncher.....but if we will able to that with our Thales luncher ...then it will be great...

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Z 10 is a sh**. It can not carry 500 kG above the height of 10000 feet. It weighs more than double the weight of LCH yet has a lower power engine. Its power to weight ratio is less than half of LCH. So compare Turkish and Indian choppers only. Chinese one is ruled out. It can not fly in Himalaya.

Which is what I was thinking. No wonder the Pakis wanted nothing to with it.

 

[johnq]

Yes. Some so called army professuonal will still claim it’s top of the line lol

The anonymity of the internet means that anyone can can pretend to be anything, while in reality they could be the exact opposite, such as someone who doesn't want Indian weapons industry to succeed. Anyhow, speaking of American turkey jets, here is what the designer of the F-16 and the A-10, Pierre Sprey, thinks about the F-35: AAA THE F-35 IS A LEMON PIERRE SPREY (RUNAWAY FIGHTER) FIFTH ESTATE EXTENDED INTERVW

 

[Sridhar_TN]

MI35 MI23 HIND operated by IAF is a gunship platform and not an anti-tank attack helicopter. Conceptually and doctrinally Gunships have been developed on the Huey Model of Vietnam operations of 1970 vintage against enemy Infantry and carriage of troop to the battle on a small arms protected platform. Call it a flying BMP. Attack helicopters on the contrary are basically an Anti-tank killer flying tank of later vintage developed for Nato theatre.

MI35 is also capable of limited CAS in a forward dash mode. insertion of troops especially the SOF like Spetznaz, CAR, Casualty evacuation and bombing. It is a large helicopter and can carry many bombs as internal load. Attack helicopters are packed firepower platform essentially against tanks and are operated in hunter-killer modes with or without scouts. Beside s it is capable of being for air warfare tasks.

MI35 are operated by IAF and except for Sri Lanka has no operational history with IA. I do not know about someone's happiness or unhappiness with these platforms. These could not be used in Kargil because of their height ceilings.

I don’t think that’s an accurate description of a gun ship. A gunship essentially means a heavily armed helicopter. Even the AH-1 Cobra is also considered a gunship. There is no requirement for a chopper to be able to carry troops in addition to being armed for it to be called a gunship.

When it comes to the Hind, yes, troop transports was also a priority. But, an equivalent amount of priority was also given to ground support firepower. It was meant, and designed to be an attack chopper. Also, yes, anti tank operations was not it’s focus when being developed, and that capability was only added later as an afterthought.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Much of the negativity being spread about the LCH reminds me of how the LCA was treated in its development years. And now the LCA has developed into a platform with superior handling and maneuvering at high altitude; it has been praised by no less than 4 (Indian and foreign) air chiefs for its handling at altitude.
The LCH will be the same way. It takes time to develop a product as complex as the LCH, but once it gets there it will have superior high altitude handling combined with superior engagement capability (especially once coupled with its UAV escort). The problem with some of the naysayers is that they have a fixed older way of thinking, so they don't easily accept that a newer better way is possible. The development of a military industrial base in any country (Including US) has gone through its trials by fire, but that is necessary. The American military industrial base took decades to develop, with countless mistakes, and here the naysayers want it to stop at the first stage. It's just easier to pick and choose whatever you want from a foreign country, but that also means the lack of military development within India as you waste more money in profits for the foreign companies and arms dealers. Of course the foreign vendors don't want you to develop your own products, as it means loss of future business profits for them. But in spite of all the opposition from various vested interests, I have a feeling that India will get there.

What I'm thinking is that lcs and some projects got lucky and in the case had some powerful backers at critical points that helped it see the light of day.

I always get the feeling that all indian big military indeginous procurements have a spectre of death before it even takes off like a new born baby in front of kansa.

I feel there still needs to be a push,more along more pro desi lines rather than private lines even though I'm fine with it.The issue won't be completely solved by only concentrating on private ownership as private parties are doing a mess in the US too if you investigate it.

So in conclusion you need constant vigilance of a system of normal people,leaders,researchers and the military all acting in national interest to promote Indeginous solutions to military procurement problems.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

The anonymity of the internet means that anyone can can pretend to be anything, while in reality they could be the exact opposite, such as someone who doesn't want Indian weapons industry to succeed. Anyhow, speaking of American turkey jets, here is what the designer of the F-16 and the A-10, Pierre Sprey, thinks about the F-35: AAA THE F-35 IS A LEMON PIERRE SPREY (RUNAWAY FIGHTER) FIFTH ESTATE EXTENDED INTERVW

I know because I read the in depth stuff about the us military and all European militaries and believe me the Indian military procurement and other issues seem trivial to fine compared to their issues.The latest generation of us surface warfare is shot except for the submarines.but u won't get that feel when you read some of the pro private procurment fans here.

Yes private procurment will some problems and will reduce our problems in others but it is not a panacea as some are making out to be as some of these countries have notable private companies who used to make relevant cost effective machines which now make expensive white elephants for their countries and their governments and military don't help in the procurement process and don't know when to say no to a private player when they offer a product.Seriously the us navy is a much more hollow force compared to their depiction and the other European milotaries are jokes except for some special units and probably some of them having nukes.

The saving grace in Europe might be France and even that is kind of meh.i swear look into internal issues of these militaries u would understand u need a whole patriotic system constantly working to bring Indeginous to the for front and let go of major dependencies rather than simply privatize them all.however some like ofb do need it ,most are fine and some are good and some need both private and public partnership.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Z 10 is a sh**. It can not carry 500 kG above the height of 10000 feet. It weighs more than double the weight of LCH yet has a lower power engine. Its power to weight ratio is less than half of LCH. So compare Turkish and Indian choppers only. Chinese one is ruled out. It can not fly in Himalaya.

If it flies then the pilot will have to fly next to the opposing forces chopper and shoot the other guy with a 9mm himself from the cockpit becuz he won't be able to carry any weight on the chopper.

 

[Rohan Naik]

Bro that Thales fz 70mm luncher can fire guided rockets...with little or no modification
It's upto mod whether they will buy or not...
For precise attack ,laser guided to rockets are good.....
But for larger target area...salvo of non guided rockets ,will be a cheapest option....
I have seen Apache carrying both guided and unguided rockets with same luncher.....but if we will able to that with our Thales luncher ...then it will be great...

A wild thought. How about adding one more slot of rocket launcher under the belly of the chopper? I know it will increase the overall weight, but if can be materialised then it will increase the forepower

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The anonymity of the internet means that anyone can can pretend to be anything, while in reality they could be the exact opposite, such as someone who doesn't want Indian weapons industry to succeed. Anyhow, speaking of American turkey jets, here is what the designer of the F-16 and the A-10, Pierre Sprey, thinks about the F-35: AAA THE F-35 IS A LEMON PIERRE SPREY (RUNAWAY FIGHTER) FIFTH ESTATE EXTENDED INTERVW

Yes. And the vehement attacks on all local players, not just the public/govt ones, but also companies up and coming like tonbo, L&T, TATA, is extremely suspicious.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Looks like the Indian Army's 6 Apaches don't work so well at high altitude. Meanwhile the LCH, which would've worked better at this altitude, is still awaiting orders since 2016. Instead of arming LCH and Rudra with another ATGM while Helina is being developed, the MoD/army blames its usual punching bag, the DRDO, for delays with Helina as an excuse for not ordering LCH. Not to mention their moving the goal-posts on Helina requirements during development, leading to delays. But if they had armed the LCH and Rudra with another ATGM, then there would've been no reason left for the 930 million dollar deal for a measly 6 Apache (comes to 155 million per Apache!).

Apaches are a welcome addition though I do think either IAF or IA should have control of all of them else we will require a greater number to effectively use them.

LCH on the other hand should be ordered as it is with Hellfire or Spike ER whichever is cheaper to obtain and effective at the same time.

Guided rockets instead of unguided ones.

A radar and ecm measure next to follow. But to train pilots on this and exploit the potential over 2-3 years must be the priority.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I don’t know how much you know about the American defence equipment sale, but there is no middle man or dealer in between, when India buys from US it’s through FMS route, there is no import lobbies or dealers involved in the deals and nobody from the Indians side benefits from this deal.

Now when your import from Europe or Israel now that’s a different thing and what you said might be true.

The only thing that might have influenced in Apache deal (I don’t know the timeline of the contract) is trump forcing modi to address trade imbalance between the countries. But not a dime went to anyone pocket for brokering the deal.

There are middlemen hired by companies like Boeing etc and arms dealer for the purpose. For e.g. Sig had an Indian arms dealer with a foreign wife working for them. In 2011 they were arrested.

Why do you think Army played around with different barrels etc for so long .. in rifle procurement ?

Sig was way ahead in race.

A wild thought. How about adding one more slot of rocket launcher under the belly of the chopper? I know it will increase the overall weight, but if can be materialised then it will increase the forepower

1. No

 

[Bleh]

1. No

Why not though?

 

[patriots]

Why Jurry rigged Helina? Is Helina ready? What about command and control, perhaps slaving with helmet sight etc. These all will need time and Helina being indigenous should be pursued vigorously to completion. But it is some months/years away from completion. The current govt will make sure that once it is completed, it will be acquired in number.
BUT,
We are at war right now, or if not this year, perhaps next. Chicoms have decided to mount a mechanized attack on us (almost all their divisions facing us are mechanized). With plenty of mountain and hills around, a helicopter borne anti-armor will do wonders. In recognition of that fact we have placed Apaches there (of which we have meager 22 of them). LCH will do wonders and we can get 15 (in advance stage of production, supposedly built already by HAL? +2 (already made) =17 of these fairly quickly (of course pilots have to be trained etc). 17 numbers in Depsang will be a good number to blunt chinese mechanized thrust.
These 17 LCH already have Elbit Compass (which btw we license produce at BEL, along with local maintenance agreement).
https://www.business-standard.com/conte ... 244_1.html

These are the same system on Rudras. Not sure if fire control, mission computer et al are integrated. But the fastest integration that can be done is Spike (which is better and cheaper than Hellfire). IA operates spike, if recent reports are to be believed the ground forces acquired Spike ER. So we operate in house all the pieces. The only non-trivial part remaining is to integrate all of these on LCH. If can be done in few months, then like 1962 in china decides to launch in October/November, we will have something. The other 150 LCH can have any missile it wants (Helina). The only caveat is that integration should not cost us arm and leg, not under the guise of emergency. It is within our power to get some 17 LCH fighting ready in Ladhak.

Excepts from the link -
https://www.business-standard.com/conte ... 244_1.html
The CoMPASS is a day-and-night surveillance system that includes a colour TV daylight camera, third generation 3-5 micrometer forward looking infrared (FLIR) sensor, laser target designator and range finder (LTDRF) and automatic tracking capabilities, as well as command and control capabilities. It is distinguished by a wide variety of interfaces, enabling integration with various aircraft / helicopter systems, such as mission computer, fire control, radar, GPS, data downlink and helmet-mounted tracking systems. Its small dimensions, low weight, high level of stabilisation and coverage angles make it an optimal choice for long-range, day-and night surveillance, target tracking, fire control applications and search and rescue.


Copied from brf.......as I agreed with the poster

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Which is what I was thinking. No wonder the Pakis wanted nothing to with it.

Climb rate of LCH is so high that a ceiling on the same is put to control it to prevent Air frame to be damaged.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

If it flies then the pilot will have to fly next to the opposing forces chopper and shoot the other guy with a 9mm himself from the cockpit becuz he won't be able to carry any weight on the chopper.

Chinkis are idiots. When they did not have missile technology, they made missiles out of their rockets weighing more that 150 tons which were logistics nightmare. They made Z 10 with russian help but couldn't make a suitable engine. Simulation study revealed that Z 10 can not carry more that 500 kg beyond 10000 ft height.

 

[Pash]

Who said LCH is toothless

 

[HariPrasad-1]

LCH and ALH are all set to become more powerful with 1200 KM HTSE engine. This is a bloody 33% additional power from 1200 HP to 1200 KW. There is no engine suitable for high altitude than ALH family chopper. This additional power will provide many more configuration options.

 

[Pash]

According to Wikipedia, flight test of HAL HTSE-1200 by end of 2019. Any update on this......

 

[patriots]

 

[Flying Dagger]

LCH and ALH are all set to become more powerful with 1200 KM HTSE engine. This is a bloody 33% additional power from 1200 HP to 1200 KW. There is no engine suitable for high altitude than ALH family chopper. This additional power will provide many more configuration options.

They are getting 1400hp+ engine that is around 1000kw+ Infact there are already engine available through snecma with upto 2000 hp.

HAL HTSE is 1200 kw/1600 hp and it has more to do with indigenisation.