HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[Bhadra]

Get used to it this guy has 0 sources for idiotic claims. When said his info is inaccurate all he does is abuse people. No rational debate can be had with this guy he lives in his own delusional world.
NAG has been in Army trials for nearly 12 years. Spike with its faulty seeker was ordered after maybe 6 months at best of trials.

Shub this reference somewhere ...

DRDO Anti Tank Missile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

*****************************

Introduction[edit]
In 1959, India started a feasibility study on a First Generation Anti Tank Missile (ATM). New General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) were issued and the task of preliminary study and wind testing was assigned to Department of Aeronautics and Institute of Science, Bangalore.[1]

Development[edit]
In 1962, DRDO was granted ₹6 lakh (equivalent to ₹4.1 crore or US$580,000 in 2019) to begin work on developing an Anti-Tank missile due to conflict with China in Ladakh. It has a range of 500 meters to about 2 km.[2][3]

After the first aerodynamic design was completed, a full-scale model of the complete configuration was tested in a wind tunnel at IISc Bangalore. At Bangalore, this model was tested for the force and momentum tests which were completed in 1961. Vibrating spoilers were used during these tests to determine control effectiveness. The ATM was designed to have a subsonic flight speed of about 90 m/s (300 ft/s).[1] In 1963, the entire design was reworked for accommodating 106 mm HEAT warheads in the ATM.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you wish to go by specific Name - NAG.. the NAG project commenced in 1988.... good 32years ago... but it is an ATGM only and one can say the ATGM project started in 1962...

 

[HariPrasad-1]

True, compare the LCH with the Turkish attack heli and the cChinese one.
Which is better in what respect, we know the Turkish one is heavily dependent on foreign imports including American engines. The Chinese ones, not so sure.

As far as the IAF is concerned, they’re pleased with the lch so far. I still feel The production line be outsourced to a private player for quality’s sake. When the spike ER is integrated, this thing will complement the Apache so well. Like I said before, for the first time, Indian armed forces will be CAS heavy. And I’ve said this for a long time. The LCH does not need a bigger gun, it needs more countermeasure systems for MANPADS.

Z 10 is a sh**. It can not carry 500 kG above the height of 10000 feet. It weighs more than double the weight of LCH yet has a lower power engine. Its power to weight ratio is less than half of LCH. So compare Turkish and Indian choppers only. Chinese one is ruled out. It can not fly in Himalaya.

 

[Bhadra]

Do you even read what you post?
Quote from article :first generation wire-guided missile
What is the missile we have now ? Is NAG wire guided first gen missile?
Was only the name changed in NAG or the whole thing changed.

ATGM .. developed genration wise and shall keep developing... but the fact reamins that DRDO was working on ATGM since 1962.
ATGM includes many technologies including propulsion, control, guidance, seeker, fuzing, safety, Warhead, and aerodynamics... changes are natural but where the damn learning curve ??

Now I ask you counter-question / Did they make any ATGM even if wire-guided.. ?? What did they make ??

 

[samsaptaka]

@Bhadra some one in this thread pointed out that IA is happy operating Mi35 attack helo which also does not fire missiles.
Now IF this is true can you please answer, why is it that army is ok to operate Mi35 without missiles but not LCH ?

 

[VIP]

Was the platform primarily meant for IAF or AAC? IAF has shown interest for acquiring 65 but the IA wants 114. The platform designed for high altitude areas was primarily to prived a ground support platform.

Today in Ladakh who needs it more? The Army or the IAF (I mean the role) ??

And who told you who was happy with it who is unhappy? Even orders do not reflect that even if there were some.



Combat where > Combat in air or combat on the ground? What ground combat can it perform with four AAMs ? No ATGM ??



Ah, like it has been done for Rudra WSI ?? That was accepted by the Army on such fake and trecherious promise but after so many years Rudra Remains without weapon.
Who is the system integrator and who is responsible for providing ATGM on it ? Did Army insist that only Helina or Sant will be integrated and nothing else..



IAF and Army have not given the project to DRDO. It is between DRDO and HAL. So far Services are concerned they want a complete platform with ATGM as per given specification. Specifications do not mention- Nag or Helina.

The basic weaponry which is used in mountain warfare is already there. This platform will be inducted in large numbers as the interest shown by IAF here is remarkable.

What the basic weaponry for mountain warfare? AAM ? Mountains jump and fight in the air ?? Who taught you that ?? Better discard him..
A gun without bullets is called Dunda. LCH without armaments is called a toy... HAL imported toy.. It is better to learn basics before commenting on military matters..

Primarily meant for both IA and IAF, both operate combat helis, here IAF has invited LCH sorties which shows that they are interested more than enough to see how this platform performs in real time situation unlike trials.

Whi says here that forces are responsible for delaying the weapon integration? Does anyone clain such things? Forces are meant to combat, not integrate the weapons, they have options to choose, nobody's taunting forces in this particular LCH case. So, spare us with your rants regarding the imaginary claims against forces.

It's well known fact that DRDO couldn't complete HELINA project in time which was meant for Rudra at 1st place, they have vetoed moves of HAL to integrate foreign systems time to time. A stopgap measure must be there for both the platforms, no denying in that. There's a reason why only 15 LCH will be ordered 1st, then a large order will be on table.

Mountain warfare on steep height like in Kargil doesn't involve tanks, it requires ground troop support which marches towards the heights, it's well known we couldn't have good heli air support during kargil which led to cultivation of these 2 projects. I don't want to go in details but 1st 15 LCH order is in sight and will be used to train pilots for headstart and then large order with integrated weaponry.

 

[Bleh]

Now IF this is true can you please answer, why is it that army is ok to operate Mi35 without missiles but not LCH ?

Dude, Mi-35 is an outdated vintage!.. LCH is the future replacement. Indeed itcan't engage any armoured nor mobile target, just infantry & bunkers to peform in another Kargil like scenario, but not LAC... as of now.
The rockets are unguided too, so range is limited while the helo has to remain static during the volley.

Helina has been trialed on 1m×4m raised target at max range...
...& will be up for user trials once integration with LCH is complete (October-November).

There are no pre-orders because India doesn't have money. Plain & simple.

 

[johnq]

They paid 155 million per Apache! No wonder they have no money left.

 

[kavita]

Primarily meant for both IA and IAF, both operate combat helis, here IAF has invited LCH sorties which shows that they are interested more than enough to see how this platform performs in real time situation unlike trials.

Whi says here that forces are responsible for delaying the weapon integration? Does anyone clain such things? Forces are meant to combat, not integrate the weapons, they have options to choose, nobody's taunting forces in this particular LCH case. So, spare us with your rants regarding the imaginary claims against forces.

It's well known fact that DRDO couldn't complete HELINA project in time which was meant for Rudra at 1st place, they have vetoed moves of HAL to integrate foreign systems time to time. A stopgap measure must be there for both the platforms, no denying in that. There's a reason why only 15 LCH will be ordered 1st, then a large order will be on table.

Mountain warfare on steep height like in Kargil doesn't involve tanks, it requires ground troop support which marches towards the heights, it's well known we couldn't have good heli air support during kargil which led to cultivation of these 2 projects. I don't want to go in details but 1st 15 LCH order is in sight and will be used to train pilots for headstart and then large order with integrated weaponry.

right

 

[Bleh]

They paid 155 million per Apache! No wonder they have no money left.

Only 36 Rafales & 22 Apaches, that should tell you how bad India's condition is!.. LCH may cost less than 1/2 of Apache, but the order is 5 times larger.

 

[jackhammer2]

The rockets are unguided too, so range is limited while the helo has to remain static during the volley.

Correct me if i'm wrong , guided rockets have lesser range in comparison to unguided ones as rockets bleeds some energy during the corrective maneuvers . Considering the burn time of motor in rockets is just 1-2 secs then depending on the deflection rocket takes from straight path the final drop in total achievable range can be in couple of kms.

 

[arkos]

@Bhadra some one in this thread pointed out that IA is happy operating Mi35 attack helo which also does not fire missiles.
Now IF this is true can you please answer, why is it that army is ok to operate Mi35 without missiles but not LCH ?

Aren't Hinds operated by IAF ?

 

[Bleh]

Correct me if i'm wrong , guided rockets have lesser range in comparison to unguided ones as rockets bleeds some energy during the corrective maneuvers . Considering the burn time of motor in rockets is just 1-2 secs then depending on the deflection rocket takes from straight path the final drop in total achievable range can be in couple of kms.

You're right. However at ranges longer than 3km these spray & pray rockets have really shit accuracy.

This video got famous recently & got shared a lot. If you watch it carefully (i timestamped it)... ...total ram-ke-bharose firing in the general direction of a pretty large target as the crosshair wobbles up & down.
And LCH apparently has much more accurate firing capability compared to Mi-17 or Mi-35!

Like LGBs the laser-guided rockets have pinpoint accuracy compared to that. They're costlier but you'd only need to fire 2-4 per one target.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra some one in this thread pointed out that IA is happy operating Mi35 attack helo which also does not fire missiles.
Now IF this is true can you please answer, why is it that army is ok to operate Mi35 without missiles but not LCH ?

MI35 MI23 HIND operated by IAF is a gunship platform and not an anti-tank attack helicopter. Conceptually and doctrinally Gunships have been developed on the Huey Model of Vietnam operations of 1970 vintage against enemy Infantry and carriage of troop to the battle on a small arms protected platform. Call it a flying BMP. Attack helicopters on the contrary are basically an Anti-tank killer flying tank of later vintage developed for Nato theatre.

MI35 is also capable of limited CAS in a forward dash mode. insertion of troops especially the SOF like Spetznaz, CAR, Casualty evacuation and bombing. It is a large helicopter and can carry many bombs as internal load. Attack helicopters are packed firepower platform essentially against tanks and are operated in hunter-killer modes with or without scouts. Beside s it is capable of being for air warfare tasks.

MI35 are operated by IAF and except for Sri Lanka has no operational history with IA. I do not know about someone's happiness or unhappiness with these platforms. These could not be used in Kargil because of their height ceilings.

 

[Bhadra]

Dude, Mi-35 is an outdated vintage!.. LCH is the future replacement. Indeed itcan't engage any armoured nor mobile target, just infantry & bunkers to peform in another Kargil like scenario, but not LAC... as of now.
The rockets are unguided too, so range is limited while the helo has to remain static during the volley.

Helina has been trialed on 1m×4m raised target at max range...
...& will be up for user trials once integration with LCH is complete (October-November).

There are no pre-orders because India doesn't have money. Plain & simple.

You may be right except that it fires in a forward dash and not being static. It is not as light and agile as modern attack helicopter... It is basically an MI8 platform..

 

[BangaliBabu]

Stunning demonstration.... that is awesome .. no missile hitting.. no path yet it is stunning..

Thank God the missile hit a big tall building-like structure...

what will it hit then, sir?

 

[Bleh]

Children, this is where you report for flamebait & trolling... And FUCKING WAIT FOR MODS TO REACT!!!

what will it hit then, sir?

To those who are interested in it, this is how the targets are arranged.
......... Front view.............................. Side view

In the video, camera lost the missile & by the time it fixed on the target at 0:45, it has already hit. At 1:15 you can see the ATGM hitting one of the 0.5m×1m blocks.

 

[vishnugupt]

LCH was to primarily equip Army Aviation Corps as an ant tank and CAS platform. IAF tasks are in addition.



Read some previous posts specially posted by Tattoo Shridhar and one more guy who has left no full stop in abusing everyone of the Armeed forces calling them Chor, dishonest, morally fallen, foreign mal, Import army.. etc.. Is not that enough that you are now joining the gang.



Indian Forces has no trust on their words and MoD has failed to keep all words and prmises to the Forces. Rudra WSI without ATGM has no meaning but so many have been thrust down the throat of IAF and Army with the promise that soon Helina will be integrated.. But whee is it..

Committing money on one project means stopping another important project. Why should the Army place orders on unarmed LCH at the cost of scrapping their Gun procurement or at the cost of stopping procurements of ground launched spokes.. Indian Forces have limited budgets and that is not for useless HAL who will deliver unarmed LCH after five years.



There are no two projects but a single one.
In the mountains, the primary targets of air platforms is to deliver precision. pinpointed munitions for bunker bursting, tank hunting, attacking Gun positions, enemy HQ, support special ops, and provide CAS. Rocket are not accurate support and 20mm cannons have a limited role. Without ATGM such tasks will impossible.

Dear Abhadra, that one more guy is probably me. You are running place to place and corner to corner like a Maniac and such behavior hindering all of us to understand your point ? Kindly summarize your stand under following points.
1) There is lots of tussle between MOD, DRDO HAL Vs Armed forces so how you see a way forward?? What we should do about projects which are undergoing into development, scrape or wait??
2) how you see Armed force role to develop indigenous industry/product ( vision ) ?? Including your opinion of being self sufficient in near future.
3) Where you see DRDO, PSUs, HAL in near future, Like shut down them immediately or modernize them or now on contract should be given private players only?
4) Given the low budget ( As per you say, Armed force often back stabbed by MOD ) what is you opinion on peace-meal import like 5 Apaches, Don't you thing just 5 Apaches is waste of money?? should be import more or seek in house solution??
5) As China India conflict is unfolding and we caught napping ( due to any reason ) and Now doing emergency procurement so what will be your strategy for future so we don't have to go for begging in future??
6) You always rant that DRDO oppose Armed force but HTT 40 vehemently opposed by then IAF chief in favor of Platus deal ( now there is corruption charge ). Could you please explain why IAF was opposing HTT40 project which was a HAL project ??
7) Why negotiation for import run very fast while indigenous run with snail pace? (Tejas Mk1a vs Rafale )
8) Why indigenous products trials run for decades but few trials for imported weapons?? (Barak-8 vs Nag or Astra)
9) Why GSQR keep changing for every six month for indigenous project while static or relaxed GSQR for imported one ( Arjun vs T-90 )?? cant Armed forces see what they need in next 20 years and give long term GSQR?
10) You often question indigenous product is costly but Armed forces also have ambition of becoming formidable forces so to balance this conflict, would you favor cheep import may be 10 % more capable product or long sustainable option with 10% less capable product?
11) what is the reason that Government has to make a import ban list ??

 

[Rohan Naik]

You're right. However at ranges longer than 3km these spray & pray rockets have really shit accuracy.

This video got famous recently & got shared a lot. If you watch it carefully (i timestamped it)... ...total ram-ke-bharose firing in the general direction of a pretty large target as the crosshair wobbles up & down.
And LCH apparently has much more accurate firing capability compared to Mi-17 or Mi-35!

Like LGBs the laser-guided rockets have pinpoint accuracy compared to that. They're costlier but you'd only need to fire 2-4 per one target.

LCH kammbal pitai karta hua. Dhamadham

 

[Bleh]

LCH kammbal pitai karta hua. Dhamadham

Well, yes. But it has to spend all its ammo on one target & go home... If it was only observing & guiding 155mm artillery shells from 50km away, there would be much more damage than a bunch of 70mm rockets.
That was my point.

For laser-guided rockets it'd would need to launch not a full spray, but only few pairs & continue on. Here i counted 24 volleys, meaning it had to launch all 48 rockets.

 

[johnq]

Army and IAF fought over Apache choppers, costing us Rs 2,500 crore more. Blame their silos

Do this math: 22 AH-64E Apache helicopters in 2015 cost $2.1 billion, or Rs 14,910 crore, and six of these in 2020 cost Rs 6,600 crore.
In just five years, the cost of one helicopter jumped by 62 per cent.
Yes, about Rs 1,100 crore each is what the Army will pay for six iconic pure attack helicopters that come armed with the state-of-the-art weapon system and are a big boost to the military’s firepower.
If one does a basic calculation, then each IAF helicopter in 2015 cost approximately Rs 678 crore while the Army ones in 2020 cost about Rs 1,100 crore. This means that the six new helicopters cost about Rs 2,500 crore more.

More palm grease means higher price. One hand washes the other.

The fact is that 28 Apache helicopters are not enough for a country like India, which has multiple theatres of threats. India needs more attack helicopters.
The six Apaches to the Army is a joke because they do not fulfil even a fraction of the requirements, except bringing a feel-good factor of having the iconic choppers.
The talk is that India will eventually buy more and will depend on the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) being manufactured by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).