HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[johnq]

Some points from that reportView attachment 56040View attachment 56041

View attachment 56043

Looks like the Indian Army's 6 Apaches don't work so well at high altitude. Meanwhile the LCH, which would've worked better at this altitude, is still awaiting orders since 2016. Instead of arming LCH and Rudra with another ATGM while Helina is being developed, the MoD/army blames its usual punching bag, the DRDO, for delays with Helina as an excuse for not ordering LCH. Not to mention their moving the goal-posts on Helina requirements during development, leading to delays. But if they had armed the LCH and Rudra with another ATGM, then there would've been no reason left for the 930 million dollar deal for a measly 6 Apache (comes to 155 million per Apache!).

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Much of the negativity being spread about the LCH reminds me of how the LCA was treated in its development years. And now the LCA has developed into a platform with superior handling and maneuvering at high altitude; it has been praised by no less than 4 (Indian and foreign) air chiefs for its handling at altitude.
The LCH will be the same way. It takes time to develop a product as complex as the LCH, but once it gets there it will have superior high altitude handling combined with superior engagement capability (especially once coupled with its UAV escort). The problem with some of the naysayers is that they have a fixed older way of thinking, so they don't easily accept that a newer better way is possible. The development of a military industrial base in any country (Including US) has gone through its trials by fire, but that is necessary. The American military industrial base took decades to develop, with countless mistakes, and here the naysayers want it to stop at the first stage. It's just easier to pick and choose whatever you want from a foreign country, but that also means the lack of military development within India as you waste more money in profits for the foreign companies and arms dealers. Of course the foreign vendors don't want you to develop your own products, as it means loss of future business profits for them. But in spite of all the opposition from various vested interests, I have a feeling that India will get there.

This is what people don’t understand. The amount of cover ups of faulty American military equipment Stretches by decades. But they constantly improve upon them.
One needs to start somewhere.

I still feel, finding private companies is the way to go forward now.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

Looks like the Indian Army's 6 Apaches don't work so well at high altitude. Meanwhile the LCH, which would've worked better at this altitude, is still awaiting orders since 2016. Instead of arming LCH and Rudra with another ATGM while Helina is being developed, the MoD/army blames its usual punching bag, the DRDO, for delays with Helina as an excuse for not ordering LCH. Not to mention their moving the goal-posts on Helina requirements during development, leading to delays. But if they had armed the LCH and Rudra with another ATGM, then there would've been no reason left for the 930 million dollar deal for a measly 6 Apache (comes to 155 million per Apache!).

Bottom line- lch or Rudra don't have there atgm . Without them they are very less effective and can only provide support to the infantrymen . Attack helicopters main job is to provide support against armoured formations. Besides everything is not upto the army. MOD IS RULED BY CIVILIANS (BABUS). If it were upto the army they would have gotten a lot of things forget about just atgm. An example is Pakistan military. They managed there defence budget exceptionally well because there army takes the decision. The only way to solve this problem is to get new procurement policy for capital acquisition which is anyways not going to happen.

 

[vishnugupt]

Where are those ??



It was 26 August 2017, when limited series production of the LCH was formally inaugurated and this idiot wanted orders in 2016. Bap ka raj hai.. DAC cleared acquisition for 15LCH for IAF in Dec 2016 but where are the helicopters ??



Here, you have to do the following..

Put up GSQR of Helina and Nag and tell who did what. Whether both were abject failures of it was shifting the gaol post.?
Kindly tell us who blocked IA proposals to acquire ATGM so far ??
Is it for IA to integrate an ATGM or that of HAL ?? Who is system integrater.

You would not do that but shout louder that your sour aft is in pain.

Moderator, please give some Electric sock to this A-Bhadra's head so his brain can restart/reset again. Now he is increasingly becoming unbearable with his ton of bullshit. Dvai kha le Abhadra, davai khaaleeeeee

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Where are those ??



It was 26 August 2017, when limited series production of the LCH was formally inaugurated and this idiot wanted orders in 2016. Bap ka raj hai.. DAC cleared acquisition for 15LCH for IAF in Dec 2016 but where are the helicopters ??



Here, you have to do the following..

Put up GSQR of Helina and Nag and tell who did what. Whether both were abject failures of it was shifting the gaol post.?
Kindly tell us who blocked IA proposals to acquire ATGM so far ??
Is it for IA to integrate an ATGM or that of HAL ?? Who is system integrater.

You would not do that but shout louder that your sour aft is in pain.

Tsk tsk. Why such language ji? Thoda tameez se Baath Karo ji. Tsk tsk.

It’s very important to thand maar. Cool down. Take a deep breath. Let the vaayu cool down your brain cells.

 

[Coalmine]

Isnt Helina already fired successfully. And that too a number of times. Then what for army is waiting for.
If they want Dhruvastra why not order Helina in limited quantities. Nothing wrong for.time being

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Where are those ??

This is what Johnq is asking. Where are those??? Why don’t we see them deployed if they’re working so well. Lol

 

[Vilander]

pranam

apparently 2 LCH deployed in ladhak along with Apache.

Light Combat Helicopter Deployed With IAF In Ladakh

In a massive show of faith ahead of first orders for the type later this year, a pair of HAL Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) has been operating with the Indian Air Force in Ladakh for a week now. Two LCH airframes flew into Ladakh from Bengaluru last weekend and have…

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[charlie]

A lot of lies about LCH are being spread by the import lobby, because they don't want to lose the money made by expensive imports like Apache. But the fact remains that you cannot make up the required numbers with imports, as a billion dollars just gets you six Apaches. The only thing imports do is line the pockets of the dealers who are not interested in defending India, only making the money.
Real research and development costs money, and if you give DRDO 1/10th the money it took to develop an advanced platform like the Apache, then don't expect overnight results. Along with that, the import lobby is well-known for constantly moving goal-posts to kill indigenous projects; they did it to Arjun tank and now they are doing it to LCH.
But even against all odds, the DRDO has made the LCH into a superb product, in spite of the lies being spread against it by some foreign product worshippers here.
I think it's finally dawning on some in the Indian government that you cannot fight a war against China without having a military industrial base. If you try to fight a war with imports, you will simply run out of money, as much of the price paid for foreign products goes to their profits. The LCH should be ordered in large numbers, and eventually fitted with the Dhruvastra, it will be a deadly platform.

I don’t know how much you know about the American defence equipment sale, but there is no middle man or dealer in between, when India buys from US it’s through FMS route, there is no import lobbies or dealers involved in the deals and nobody from the Indians side benefits from this deal.

Now when your import from Europe or Israel now that’s a different thing and what you said might be true.

The only thing that might have influenced in Apache deal (I don’t know the timeline of the contract) is trump forcing modi to address trade imbalance between the countries. But not a dime went to anyone pocket for brokering the deal.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

I don’t know how much you know about the American defence equipment sale, but there is no middle man or dealer in between, when India buys from US it’s through FMS route, there is no import lobbies or dealers involved in the deals and nobody from the Indians side benefits from this deal.

Now when your import from Europe or Israel now that’s a different thing and what you said might be true.

The only thing that might have influenced in Apache deal (I don’t know the timeline of the contract) is trump forcing modi to address trade imbalance between the countries. But not a dime went to anyone pocket for brokering the deal.

Well, the apaches are worth it. I would still say, to have a count close to 60 apaches for the IAF supported by dozens of LCH’s.

 

[Indrajit]

The only thing that might have influenced in Apache deal (I don’t know the timeline of the contract) is trump forcing modi to address trade imbalance between the countries. But not a dime went to anyone pocket for brokering the deal.

2015 I think. Before Trump definitely.

 

[Indrajit]

Looks like the Indian Army's 6 Apaches don't work so well at high altitude. Meanwhile the LCH, which would've worked better at this altitude, is still awaiting orders since 2016. Instead of arming LCH and Rudra with another ATGM while Helina is being developed, the MoD/army blames its usual punching bag, the DRDO, for delays with Helina as an excuse for not ordering LCH. Not to mention their moving the goal-posts on Helina requirements during development, leading to delays. But if they had armed the LCH and Rudra with another ATGM, then there would've been no reason left for the 930 million dollar deal for a measly 6 Apache (comes to 155 million per Apache!).

Different machines. Can’t compare directly. Bit like comparing a F15 with an F16. Different classes.

 

[noobmaster69]

 

[johnq]

I don’t know how much you know about the American defence equipment sale, but there is no middle man or dealer in between, when India buys from US it’s through FMS route, there is no import lobbies or dealers involved in the deals and nobody from the Indians side benefits from this deal.

Now when your import from Europe or Israel now that’s a different thing and what you said might be true.

The only thing that might have influenced in Apache deal (I don’t know the timeline of the contract) is trump forcing modi to address trade imbalance between the countries. But not a dime went to anyone pocket for brokering the deal.

It's never that straightforward. The way it works is: Company A wants to sell its wares to IAF. So they hire a lobbying firm. Now this firm also employs retired Indian army-men and retired MoD personnel who still have "connections." So they get their pay from the firm, while putting in a good word for the weapons system. Ultimately a price is quoted, but that price includes the fees paid to the lobbying firm, along with the profits to the manufacturer. That is why the cost of each Apache helicopter comes to 155 million. The actual manufacturing cost is far less.
I have nothing against the Apache; it's a fine machine. But when you deploy a heavy chopper like the Apache at high altitude, its weapons-load becomes very less, because its engines lose power at high altitude. THAT is the current problem with the Apache deployment in Ladakh. Sure you can deploy it, but it will only carry 1 rocket pod and 2 missiles, because it was not designed from scratch for operating in high altitudes.
The LCH can actually carry more than the Apache when operating at higher altitudes, because it was designed to do that. And yet even the LSP order for the LCH has not been finalized yet. They ordered an imported air-to-air missile for the Rudra and LCH, why couldn't the MoD/army also order a foreign ATGM as a stopgap?

About the Helina/Dhruvastra: The Helina would've worked fine in Ladakh but was rejected after a trial in Jaisalmer in which its first iteration seeker missed 1 out 3 targets. And that was in the hottest month in Rajasthan where they tested it against a camouflaged target with its engines off and sitting out in the desert sun for a long time so that the target was the exact same temperature as the desert around it. All foreign ATGM with IIR seekers of that generation would also have had trouble against such a target, because IIR seekers do not do well in such a high heat situation. Instead of rejecting it outright, the MoD/army could've accepted it in a limited role for high altitude areas, while the DRDO worked to improve the seeker for the desert. The Dhruvastra, the follow-up to the Helina, has an improved higher resolution seeker which works fine in the desert camouflaged situation.

 

[Bleh]

Instead of rejecting it outright, the MoD/army could've accepted it in a limited role for high altitude areas, while the DRDO worked to improve the seeker for the desert.

That's how it went with Spike & frankly Helina too. It's being integrated to LCH (Rudra done) which will be followed by Dhruvastra as an upgrade.

 

[Bhadra]

It's never that straightforward. The way it works is: Company A wants to sell its wares to IAF. So they hire a lobbying firm. Now this firm also employs retired Indian army-men and retired MoD personnel who still have "connections." So they get their pay from the firm, while putting in a good word for the weapons system. Ultimately a price is quoted, but that price includes the fees paid to the lobbying firm, along with the profits to the manufacturer. That is why the cost of each Apache helicopter comes to 155 million. The actual manufacturing cost is far less.
I have nothing against the Apache; it's a fine machine. But when you deploy a heavy chopper like the Apache at high altitude, its weapons-load becomes very less, because its engines lose power at high altitude. THAT is the current problem with the Apache deployment in Ladakh. Sure you can deploy it, but it will only carry 1 rocket pod and 2 missiles, because it was not designed from scratch for operating in high altitudes.
The LCH can actually carry more than the Apache when operating at higher altitudes, because it was designed to do that. And yet even the LSP order for the LCH has not been finalized yet. They ordered an imported air-to-air missile for the Rudra and LCH, why couldn't the MoD/army also order a foreign ATGM as a stopgap?

About the Helina/Dhruvastra: The Helina would've worked fine in Ladakh but was rejected after a trial in Jaisalmer in which its first iteration seeker missed 1 out 3 targets. And that was in the hottest month in Rajasthan where they tested it against a camouflaged target with its engines off and sitting out in the desert sun for a long time so that the target was the exact same temperature as the desert around it. All foreign ATGM with IIR seekers of that generation would also have had trouble against such a target, because IIR seekers do not do well in such a high heat situation. Instead of rejecting it outright, the MoD/army could've accepted it in a limited role for high altitude areas, while the DRDO worked to improve the seeker for the desert. The Dhruvastra, the follow-up to the Helina, has an improved higher resolution seeker which works fine in the desert camouflaged situation.

If an apache carries an armament load equivalent to LCH only ... will then work ? What is available on ground has to be used and LCH is not there. The two Namuna LCH which were flown by vice admiral other day was not over combat area and were unarmed.. not fired nor fired at... that was just a propaganda cat and I really do not know who is impressed with that...

LCH was conceived as as ground forces machines.. I do not know who turned it into a UAV hunter machine... and let them only use it ... why make such a nullable of it.. Jabardasti hai kyaa ??

 

[scatterStorm]

View attachment 56109

At what current weapon configuration.
I hope it has some ATGM and rockets.

 

[patriots]

So official confirmation came...........
...

 

[Bhadra]

So official confirmation came...........
...

yes.. air mission not ground missions..
yes... with those two IAF will win the air war...

 

[patriots]

yes.. air mission not ground missions..
yes... with those two IAF will win the air war...

Bro .....
Will 5 rafale s can win the air war ... though they are best
Now each single platform counts .....as China has more equipment s........

.......sir helicopters primary role is close air support,not air superiority
Hal lch and rudra will do that .....
Your only concern is atgm .....
Hope iaf and army would have done something ...with this issue....
Sir please don't scold lch....