HAL HJT-36 Sitara

Kunal Biswas

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Alot of people have no Idea abt what they are talking ..







They were inducted long back as LSP variant, Sitara will be getting it IOC-2 in few weeks ..

All that is history, say HAL project managers, as the Sitara is poised to enter service. It flies up to 700 kilometres per hour and up to 9,000 metres high. It can sustain gravitational forces from minus 2.5G to plus 7G (seven times the force of gravity). It has a range of 1000 kilometres, extendable to 1,500 kilometres with external drop tanks.
More information on this thread >> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/57047-sitara-trainer-poised-enter-service.html
 

bennedose

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I recall speaking to someone about the Al 55 engine. It is not as if the engine is unreliable, but Russian bureaucratic rules about engine safety demands that the Russians and only the Russians will dictate the number of hours between inspections. Only after they have certified every last thing for 100 hours will they allow the engine to be used for 300 hours between inspections. India is caught in this and there is nothing we can do - having agreed to use the new engine from Russia. It is not as if the engine is bad or is failing. If the Russians decide that some problems have cropped up after 100 hour maintenance and that modifications are needed, they will extend the period of uncertainty, as they did for the Gorshkov.

India's fault is (IMHO) being too reluctant to spend money and effort on engine development and accepting that new engines might fail after just 10 hours of use. The Chinese WS 10 used to do just that I believe - it had to be changed/inspected after just 10 hours.

We need to build an engine, fly it and not laugh and mock our engine builders if the engine requires maintenance after just 10 or 20 hours of flying. We need to invest in a flying test bed. That is the way engine experience is built up. But we Indians are inveterate admirers of phoren. We buy proven engines with 1000 hours periods between maintenance and roundly criticize any Indian who cannot do magic and come up with a similar engine.

We need a basic change in attitude and a realization that nothing will come easy and fast, unless we sell ourselves out to someone who will hold us by our balls. The latter is what we have done for 60 plus years.
 

bennedose

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Because of our "import everything" policy for the Air Force, the IAF has become extremely competent as a great fighting force using proven, reliable equipment. For example, our Su-30s that went to the US for Red Flag were operational 100% of the time and were ready for all sorties.

In a complex system such as a fighter aircraft in which sensitive equipment is subjected to great thermal and mechanical stresses some thing or the other is bound to fail. Sometimes a failed item is not vital and the plane keeps flying. At other times the plane gets grounded until the item is repaired/replaced. If that is a simple 1 hour job - fine. But if it takes 1 week, the plane is grounded for a week.

Because the IAF has had "relatively" proven system proven by phoren companies and test pilots and engineers, our Air Force has shown great competence and efficiency in handling such equipment.

Imagine if our Air Force had to deal with unproven and new equipment made in India. Then they might have to cope with engine inspections every 10 hours or so. This naturally decreases the efficiency of the air force as a fighting arm. A squadron of 12 fighters may have only 3 operational aircraft under such circumstances. The IAF has, in my view, not really faced this sort of situation as Western and Russian Air Forces have done in WW1 and WW2 and later conflicts. Those Air Forces have had to fight with untested and unreliable equipment and have experienced some real shit. The IAF too has experienced some real shit - but the IAF cannot really be stated to have experienced trouble unless they are forced to rely on totally Indian stuff. Having predominantly imported and proven maal takes a lot of pain out of maintaining an Air Force and allows the personnel to concentrate on fighting.

However this creates delays and grounding due to sanctions. And it is very very expensive. I find it interesting that the IAF and media are openly critical when Indian companies (eg HAL/OFB) cause delays but when it comes to foreign maal we are "atithi devobhava". For example 14 years after Kargil some retired officer says that India got "out of date satellite pics" during Kargil "from a friendly foreign country". It irritates me no end that we are such pathetic losers that we openly curse our own people but hide the identity of our foreign bastard friends who cheated us. Have you ever heard the media curse Russia for giving us a cryo engine that failed? We only hear about the failure of Indian cryo engines. How many know that T-72 tanks needed a huge block of ice in the cabin to keep crew cool in the desert because there was no AC? How many know that the HF 24 had a fantastic AC for Indian conditions while equipment was warping and popping out of its place from the Indian heat in foreign aircraft? How many of you know of the time when half the IAf was grounded because Russia was not supplying brake-pads for MiG 21s. They could take off, but not land and brake. We suffer this shit and call people "friends" and we curse other Indians for being incompetent. What's it with us exactly?

We have to suffer our own stuff. We have to be self reliant. That will definitely make the IAF less fighting fit in the short term, but India will be stronger in the long term

China handled this well. They used to manufacture total crap, but promise to nuke anyone who thought they could win a war. We should do that. If our armed forces stand to lose a war because the equipment is faulty, we should resolve to nuke anyone who wants to take advantage of our weakness. I hope a new generation of politicians can understand these basic requirements of power play.
 
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CuriousBen

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Any news about the spin test and stall test ?
If one were to believe Mr Ajai Shukla then Sitara is few weeks away from IOC.
I wish to know how much work is pending and I hope that few weeks does not mean 20 or 30 weeks or indefinite delay .
 

rugved

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looks interesting but just remember

HAL is a pathological liar,so before we celebrate we need to make sure it gets inducted.

call me anything but i don't trust these guys at all
Actually the problem lies with our defence ministry. HAL is the only Indian aeronautical company which manufactures military aircraft; and to add to that, the Indian government does not want to lose its monopoly over the aeronautical market by introducing in private players.
 

p2prada

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A gratuitous remark on its face. A Project Manager should know better.
You seem to have misunderstood his remark.

He meant to say the design is so good that people will find it hard to believe it was actually designed in India.
 

W.G.Ewald

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You seem to have misunderstood his remark.

He meant to say the design is so good that people will find it hard to believe it was actually designed in India.
I understood what he meant and I meant what I said. To me, his remark displays a lack of pride in the ability of Indians. That is what I don't understand.
 

ersakthivel

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Not a very credible article, especially the IJT has come close to IOC.

If IAF plumbs for Russian YAK, the russians have a lot to explain why when their Yak has an engine that meets the IAF lifetime requirements , how come the AL engine they contracted for HAL has such low life time requirements?

Like the Pliatus Vs HTT-40 saga, it has the making of another long running fued with all the three sides , IAF, HAL and the russians accusing each other for a long time.
 
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makmohan

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Yea not sure how far this news is true,, there was news few weeks back saying IJT is going to get IOC soon after Tejas IOC-2 . Now all of sudden IAF is trying to dump IJT is totally weird.

Not a very credible article, especially the IJT has come close to IOC.

If IAF plumbs for Russian YAK, the russians have a lot to explain why when their Yak has an engine that meets the IAF lifetime requirements , how come the AL engine they contracted for HAL has such low life time requirements?

Like the Pliatus Vs HTT-40 saga, it has the making of another long running fued with all the three sides , IAF, HAL and the russians accusing each other for a long time.
 

kseeker

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IAF all set to dump HAL’s IJT and will go for Imported Trainer | idrw.org

After waiting for 14 years , IAF has decided not to wait more for HAL HJT-36 Sitara , after it failed to meet deadline for IOC ( Initial operational clearance ) last month . with Kiran Mk I and Mk II trainers which currently trains pilots at stage-II have completed their operational airframe life and continuing using them for training younger pilots possess danger to newbie pilots and their Instructors .

IAF now has asked MOD to let it purchase 24 jets from foreign vendor , since in next two years IAF will start running out of Kiran trainers , IAF had requirements of 74 HJT-36 Sitara but HAL failed to fix design issues which is cropping up with IJT and un- reliability of Russian engine has already lead to crash of one of the prototypes few years back which derailed the program .

MOD have not responded to IAF's Request yet but Russian have been promoting Yak-130 to IAF for some time now and British BAE who have supplied Hawk AJT are ready to provide downgraded version of Hawk for Indian air force requirements , HAL are yet to comment on this issue and IAF now are planning to built Pilatus PC-7 Mk II in house after HAL refused to build them .

 

Kyubi

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I Still don't get it :mad:!!! why can't HAL rectify the problems faced by HJT sitara??? When Tejas could be built why is it that they are delaying HJT ?? Personally i feel it defies all logic:frusty:... How hard is to rectify structural damage, or replace the NPO saturn engine... Seriously HAL's aircraft building competence is at stake and clearly IAF is using this opportunity to rely on aircrafts of foreign make.
 

kseeker

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I Still don't get it :mad:!!! why can't HAL rectify the problems faced by HJT sitara???
Lethargic approach of HAL and too much of babu bureaucracy which is prevalent at all levels.
 

Kyubi

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Seriously i hate this character, isn't he from Gladiator..
On more serious note i see the character focused here is Commodus which in reality is very much akin to IAF ..plz note i dont mean to character assassinate IAF but merely in retrospect to the "GIF ". Here we find Commodus aka IAF showing a thumbs down sign to HAL with a cynicism that really threatens HAL's competence......
 

kseeker

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Seriously i hate this character, isn't he from Gladiator..
You are right!

On more serious note i see the character focused here is Commodus which in reality is very much akin to IAF ..plz note i dont mean to character assassinate IAF but merely in retrospect to the "GIF ". Here we find Commodus aka IAF showing a thumbs down sign to HAL with a cynicism that really threatens HAL's competence......
Perfectly executed post martam! :thumb: Are you a doctor by any chance? :)
 

bennedose

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I understood what he meant and I meant what I said. To me, his remark displays a lack of pride in the ability of Indians. That is what I don't understand.
Your viewpoint is perfectly justified, but there is a history behind such comments, and I agree with others that this man did not mean to be demeaning or gratuitous.

This may sound silly (or incredible) to you but Indians are brought up with a culture of derision for anything Indian. If you really want to get into a deep analysis of the roots of these attitudes - I could probably fill up an entire thread or write an article - but let me keep off that. Suffice it to say that in India if something is imported or manufactured abroad it is automatically considered superior to Indian made stuff. Advertisers take pride in pointing out that some component is "imported" - like "xyz medicine has high standards of purity because the key ingredient is imported"

Going back to the statement, Indian entities like the DRDO and HAL have been at the receiving end of so many jibes, criticism and mockery that spokespersons either react by ignoring or by pointing out that criticism is unnecessary because the item/equipment matches or exceed standards of imported equipment that Indians automatically score higher than locally made things. The latter has happened in this instance.

Sorry if it still makes no sense, but will be happy to explain..
 

ladder

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Indigenous jet trainer may operate by year-end: Antony

India's indigenous jet trainer aircraft 'Sitara' is likely to be operational by the end of this year, Defence Minister A.K. Antony informed parliament Monday.

"Jet Trainer, Sitara, is likely to be operational by the year-end. Production of the aircraft will begin soon thereafter," Antony told the Lok Sabha in response to a question.

He added that the aircraft's development is in "advanced stages of certification".

"Over 800 test flights have so far been completed," Antony said.

Sitara is a subsonic intermediate jet trainer aircraft developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy. HAL started design work on an intermediate jet trainer in 1997 to replace the Kiran aircraft.

HAL was sanctioned Rs.180 crore in July 1999 to develop the aircraft and build two flying prototypes. The first prototype flew in 2003. In 2005, the budget was raised to Rs.467 crore to order a more powerful engine from Russia and to build an all-glass cockpit.

Eventually, development has cost Rs 634.23 crore.

These aircraft are likely to be based at the IAF flying school coming up in Deesa, in Gujarat and in Tambaram, where the IAF trains flying instructors.

Sitara will replace old aircraft like HPT-32 and Kiran.

Pilots are trained in three stages - on a basic trainer aircraft (BTA), on an IJT and finally on an advanced jet trainer (AJT).
Indigenous jet trainer may operate by year-end: Antony | Business Standard
 

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