France says JF-17 avionics sale to Pakistan held up

[tarunraju]

It's "held up" and not "cancelled". Who knows, when they ink deals with India and money changes hands, they can slowly invoke these deals again. France arms both sides. They're just businessmen.

 

[sob]

Remember in a Govt to Govt deal all the money is not to be paid in cash. A substantial portion consists of credits and loans arranged through French FIs. In a typical deal only about 30% needs to be paid upfront.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

it seems to me French want to make sure that they get MMRCA deal & they are working hard for it

few months back there were reports that the deal for JF-17s will be finalized & signed within this year but from no where money issue came in, why would they be talking about signing the deal when they knew that money is the problem
as tarunraju said they are business men & they arm both sides, the deal is not "cancelled"

 

[thakur_ritesh]

Ritesh ji, Instead of wishing or trying to block these Pakistani deals, shouldn't GOI start finalising some big ticket acquisitions for the modernisation of our forces. How long can we keep on dangling MMRCA/Howitzer/Helicopter/Submarine deals to the Western countries. This Govt. has lost 6 years and does not seem to be in any hurry to make up for the lost time.

SOB,

There is not the slightest of the doubts in my mind on how badly this government has messed up the modernization process of our armed forces but then on that front I really don’t expect much to happen in the next four years as well, until and unless a more efficient team of politicians is brought at the forefront in the MoD but I guess even that wont really do the trick since congress has mostly dilly dallied on defence procurements for most part of rule this country has seen off them.

 

[Yusuf]

Anthony is a liability. I think the other guys a pretty efficient. I think it would not be a bad idea to make PC the MoD. He is an efficient and intelligent person.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

India inks Mirage deal, France says no to Pak

India last week finalised a $2.2 billion deal with France to upgrade its fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters, even as reports from Paris say the country has suspended the sale of electronics and missiles for Pakistan’s JF 17 fighters, supposedly under “Indian pressure”.

While the IAF deal for upgradation of 51 fighters had been hanging fire for the past two years, sources said the Price Negotiation Committee last week finalised the cost. The deal is likely to be signed shortly.

At $2.2 billion, the cost of the upgrade is considered to be on the higher side, given that several countries are offering new fighters for that price. However, the French argue that the upgrade, which will give the aircraft new radar systems, a new weapon suite, missiles, electronic warfare system and modern electronic warfare, will convert the combat-proven aircraft into next-generation fighters.

The final price negotiations were held even as reports from Paris, carried by French newspapers and agencies, said that its plans to sell $1.6 billion worth of military equipment for Pakistan’s JF 17 fighters had been put on hold.

The reports said that the contract was suspended under Indian pressure and doubts over Pakistan’s ability to pay for the systems.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/indiainksmiragedeal-francesaysnotopak/600042/

 

[JAISWAL]

Indian pressure hun....?
Just a bussines technique to get mmrca deal in there favour
I think India is just being pulled by french for pressurising them for mmrca deal

 

[slenke]

Why do India care about what France thinks and lets France use Pakistan as leverage? France need India more than India needs France. This just shows that France very well could sell even more things to Pakistan if India don't buy the Rafale.

 

[Daredevil]

It is difficult to trust the french when it comes to business. They will sell to everyone provided the price is right which is usually expensive. I presume that if Rafale loses the MRCA they might go ahead and sell stuff to Pakistan.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The French can sell whatever they want to Pakistan even if they win the MRCA but they have to be ready for it to be reversed engineered and sold cheaper by the chinese if they want to lose their markets then it is ok, they will be in the same boat as the Russians are with the Chinese.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

The French can sell whatever they want to Pakistan even if they win the MRCA but they have to be ready for it to be reversed engineered and sold cheaper by the chinese if they want to lose their markets then it is ok, they will be in the same boat as the Russians are with the Chinese.

lol, on that basis, we must not have been getting Block 52's & moreover i think French must have thought about it before sending signals that the deal is 'almost done'

& moreover....

China-France join hands in airplane engine making

China and France have signed a deal to make airplane engines. French Prime Minister Francois Fillon is currently in China for a 3-day visit.

According to the deal, AviChina Industrial and Technology Company Limited will work with CFM International to set up an engine assembly line. It will provide engines for the Chinese-made passenger craft C-919.

CFM International is a joint venture involving General Electric and France's Safran Group. Each holds 50 percent of the stake.

http://english.cctv.com/program/bizchina/20091222/102110.shtml

French will sell where there is money, I have no doubt that once deal is done with India they will sell to Pak without any hesitation

 

[LETHALFORCE]

US have conditions for your F-16'S even much of the maintenance wil not be allowed to be done by Pakistan so I am sure they worry about the planes being checked out by the Chinese. Link is 5 months old.

 

[Yusuf]

End user monitoring agreement will prevent pakistan from sending its US birds to China. Whatever the chinese had to learn about the 16s is already visible in one of their planes, thanks to israel.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

US have conditions for your F-16'S even much of the maintenance wil not be allowed to be done by Pakistan so I am sure they worry about the planes being checked out by the Chinese. Link is 5 months old.

I have heard a lot of people saying that PAF F-16s landed into Chinese hands & they performed RE, but till this day i don't know any 'component of F-16' that got reverse engineered & used into Chinese A/Cs, do you know of any such components ?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I have heard a lot of people saying that PAF F-16s landed into Chinese hands & they performed RE, but till this day i don't know any 'component of F-16' that got reverse engineered & used into Chinese A/Cs, do you know of any such components ?

not specifically but Chinese have a good working knowledge of F-16'S from Israeli LAVI program. Rejects from both US/Israeli and Russian aviation programs have build the Chinese aviation program.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-2545

Pakistan negotiating US controls attached to F-16 deal

Pakistan is negotiating over strict conditions attached by the United States to a proposed multi-billion dollar deal to supply the Pakistani air force with F-16 warplanes, defence officials said on Tuesday.

The Bush administration formally notified Congress on June 28 of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 new "Fighting Falcon" warplanes, and the formal sale agreement was expected to have been signed by end-August.

The proposed sale had included upgrades for Pakistan's fleet of 34 earlier model F-16s and a support package for up to 26 refurbished F-16s that Pakistan may eventually buy.

"Negotiations are on and once the details are sorted out, further progress will be made," Air Commodore Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan, spokesman of for the Pakistan Air Force, said.

Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to stop the technology of the advanced F-16s, their spare parts and munitions from falling into the hands of third countries -- notably China, which has close military ties to Pakistan.

John Hillen, the Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs, told Congress on July 20 the United States had also proposed that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, must be approved by the U.S. government in advance.

Hillen said the transfer of technology safeguards inserted in the contract were "unprecedented".

Lockheed Martin Corp builds the F-16, but Boeing Co., Raytheon Co, Northrop-Gumman Corp and General Electric Co., are other principal contractors involved in the deal.

Hillen, in his testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, also disclosed that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F-16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended".

Pakistan's Air Chief, Air Chief Marshal, Tanvir Mahmood Khan, said in an interview with The News daily last Friday: "We are quite satisfied with the current F-16 proposal."

"Notwithstanding the ongoing F-16 negotiations, every aircraft deal has preconditions. Mostly these pertain to restrictions on transfer of technology, more akin to copyright laws," he added.

Though the air force spokesperson did not specify the terms and conditions under negotiation, other officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, suggested more talking was needed on the conditions set by Washington before Pakistan is fully satisfied.

In his testimony Hillen highlighted that Pakistan's F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorised engineers could not get access to the U.S. planes.

He also said U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every six months.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...suspends-arms-supply-to-Pakistan/articleshow/

France suspends arms supply to Pakistan

NEW DELHI: India’s concerns about increasing military aid to Pakistan might not bother the Obama administration but the Sarkozy
government is apparently taking note.

A report in French newspaper Le Monde claimed that France has decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles under pressure from India and due to concerns about Pakistan’s finances and for protecting sensitive technology. The missiles, according to the report, were part of the first segment of a 6 billion euro contract.

“It’s a deal that’s not ready from the Pakistani side,” the report quoted a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy’s office. “For now, the state of the dossier doesn’t allow us to carry on with it.”

The military equipment was for Pakistan’s JF-17 combat aircraft. The Le Monde report also said that a consortium of French company ATE, arms group Thales and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the military equipment. The newspaper also noted that France was worried about the lack of protection of its technology as Pakistan wanted to put together the equipment on its soil.

Though the extent to which the Sarkozy government acted under Indian pressure is debatable, India would not be unhappy with this development.

The Obama administration, due to Afghanistan, has continued to increase military aid to Pakistan. India has continued to express concern with the spike in military aid for Pakistan. The concern is that Islamabad will divert the aid and equipment to against India. US congressional reports in the past have noted that US aid meant for taking action against terror groups has been diverted for building up Pakistani military capabilities against India.

Washington, which is keen on building up Pakistan’s military capabilities to take on the Taliban and al-Qaeda, recently promised to expedite the sale of weapons to Pakistan. Washington is planning to supply laser-guided-bomb kits, 12 American-made surveillance drones and 18 late-model F-16 fighters in a bid to upgrade Pakistan’s capabilities to strike against terror targets in tribal areas.

Sources, however, maintained that the US was sensitive to Indian concerns and had assured India that there would be tight monitoring of the military aid and equipment given to Pakistan. ``Our concerns have been expressed about large packages of assistance US has been providing to Pakistan,’’ sources said. India has told the US to ensure that the latest aid is used in fighting al-Qaeda and Taliban terrorists and not India.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

not specifically but Chinese have a good working knowledge of F-16'S from Israeli LAVI program. Rejects from both US/Israeli and Russian aviation programs have build the Chinese aviation program.

Working knowledge of F-16s through Israeli Lavi, now where are PAF F-16s in the picture, I am yet to know the F-16 components been reverse engineered by Chinese

John Hillen, the Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs, told Congress on July 20 the United States had also proposed that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, must be approved by the U.S. government in advance.

BTW PAF is going to Red Flag this year

 

[DaRk WaVe]

France’s fakement on Pakistani JF-17 Thunders​

Pakistani JF-17 Thunders are already flying without the French parts. The new parts would have enhanced the capability of the aircraft. The PAF has learned its lessons from various US embargoes and now uses a plethora of equipment from various countries for the enhancements. Islamabad does not depend on any one country. The JF-17 Thunder is built from scratch on exact Pakistani needs and most of the equipment, frame and electronics are indigenous. France like the US has never been a reliable supplier for Pakistan. In the 70s the French canceled a Nuclear processing plant that had been signed between the two countries. is there an Israeli connection to this “hold”? Some blame France’s latest chicanery on the Jewish origins of President Sarkozy who has taken all of France to the right of center–abandoning traditional French neutrality on many issues. France has vehemently opposed Turkey’s admission to the EU tying it to Israel’s admittance.

Three is a disjunction between private and public French posturing. Islamabad is used to French double-dealing, duplicity, and equivocation. This latest sleight-of-hand scurvy trick is typical of France’s subterfuge and deceitful fakement. The recent French turpitude on putting a $1.6 billion deal for Pakistan “on hold” is being seen as silly surreptitious trickery by Sarkozy and gang to secure the lucrative Bharati (aka Indian) deal first and put then pressure on Pakistan to force Islamabad to buy the Augustas rather than the German 214 Submarines.

France sells arms to anyone and everyone. This new found streak of logic-chopping insta-conscience may have been nurtured to please Delhi–secure the $2.2 billion deal with with Bharat to upgrade its aging and archaic fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters–and then approve the Pakistani parts.

In a carefully crafted tergiversation France said that it had put the Pakistan deal “It’s a deal that’s not ready from the Pakistani side,” the source said, without giving further details. “For now, the state of the dossier doesn’t allow us to carry on with it.”

A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales (TCFP.PA) and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment. Reuters

Not ready from the Pakistani side? What does that mean. There is no check attached with the dossier? What does “state of the dossier” mean? Are the kicbacks not working?–or is it a tactic to place pressure on Pakistan to deal with those that killed the French Engineers working on the Augustas in Karachi.

Analysts beleive that pettifoggery may be linked to slowing down Pakistan’s indigenous plane capability which will directly impact the sale of French Mirages to the third world. Paris may be looking to better safeguards on its technology and a better price from Pakistan.

The French ruse may also be a tickler for Delhi’s MCRC $10 billion deal. With Delhi’s relations with Washington at their lowest ebb, and souring, the French team may be working to get their foot in the door on the $10 sale of aircraft to Bharat.

New Delhi: The France government held up its 1.6 billion dollars sale of arms to Pakistan, reportedly under pressure from India.

The military hardware was to be used for Pakistan’s JF-17 combat aircraft. The sale of electronics and missiles, under the first part of a six billion euro deal, was signed with Islamabad.

Paris is said to be concerned over whether Pakistan would be able to pay-off the huge deal amount or not. And, also worried over the safety of the sophisticated technology.

However, experts are not willing to accept India would be able to exert pressue on France to hold the deal for long.

“I don’t really know how much pressure India can really exert on France because in the past we have seen that America has tremendous influence on their policies,” said Hamid Gul, former DG of ISI.

“Americans have supplied us already. They have committed to supply us 18 F-16 aircraft. Any aircraft that France can put out it can be outmatched by what the Americans can do.”

“We have very good relations in this field with China and we have developed JF-17 Thunder. We don’t see any immediate possibility of war. Therefore we have time in which we can develop technology,” he added. IBN and agencies.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy’s persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.

http://news.combataircraft.com/readnews.aspx?i=939

 

[LETHALFORCE]

1.6 billion dollars to spend on JF-17 a complete waste, Pakistan could have spent that amount on getting a completely different plane no Chinese plane is worth spending that much on.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

1.6 billion dollars to spend on JF-17 a complete waste, Pakistan could have spent that amount on getting a completely different plane no Chinese plane is worth spending that much on.

I personally think that PAF will be careful about 'where it spends money' because they don't have much of it, There's got to be a reason for why they are spending money on JF-17 & should i assume that you are underestimating Chinese Platforms?