FGFA and Super Sukhois will provide India cutting edge Air Combat Power

WolfPack86

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India is finally taking forward the negotiations with Russia on stalled mega projects to jointly develop a futuristic fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) as well as upgrade its existing Sukhoi-30MKI jets into 'Super Sukhois' with advanced avionics and weapons.

Here's a low-down to the action plan that India has prepared to bolster its air defence system -


MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s are being upgraded ::
63 MiG-29s and 51 Mirage-2000s are being upgraded with better avionics and weapons. It involves a total cost of Rs 23,000 crore.

120 Tejas aircraft to be inducted ::
India plans to induct 120 Tejas aircraft by 2026 for which the total cost is estimated around Rs 55,000 crore.
Currently, 2 jets have been inducted and it is expected that first full squadron will be ready by 2018.

36 Rafale jets to be inducted ::
36 Rafale jets will be directly inducted from France from 2019 onwards. The estimated cost of the project is Rs 59,500 crores.

272 Sukhoi-30MKI jets to be inducted by 2018-19 ::
272 Sukhoi-30MKI jets to be inducted by 2018-19. They will be upgraded to 'Super Sukhois' in 2017. For this, total cost is pegged at Rs 55,717 crore.

Fifth-generation fighter aircraft ::
127 single-seat jets are expected to be inducted from 2022 onwards, which will cost around Rs 26,800 crore for R&D phase only. Jets will cost extra
http://www.defencenews.in/article/F...vide-India-cutting-edge-Air-Combat-Power-6696
 

Mikesingh

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A lot of planes! But where the dickens are we going to get so many fully ops fighter pilots from?
 

HariPrasad-1

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India is finally taking forward the negotiations with Russia on stalled mega projects to jointly develop a futuristic fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) as well as upgrade its existing Sukhoi-30MKI jets into 'Super Sukhois' with advanced avionics and weapons.

Here's a low-down to the action plan that India has prepared to bolster its air defence system -


MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s are being upgraded ::
63 MiG-29s and 51 Mirage-2000s are being upgraded with better avionics and weapons. It involves a total cost of Rs 23,000 crore.

120 Tejas aircraft to be inducted ::
India plans to induct 120 Tejas aircraft by 2026 for which the total cost is estimated around Rs 55,000 crore.
Currently, 2 jets have been inducted and it is expected that first full squadron will be ready by 2018.

36 Rafale jets to be inducted ::
36 Rafale jets will be directly inducted from France from 2019 onwards. The estimated cost of the project is Rs 59,500 crores.

272 Sukhoi-30MKI jets to be inducted by 2018-19 ::
272 Sukhoi-30MKI jets to be inducted by 2018-19. They will be upgraded to 'Super Sukhois' in 2017. For this, total cost is pegged at Rs 55,717 crore.

Fifth-generation fighter aircraft ::
127 single-seat jets are expected to be inducted from 2022 onwards, which will cost around Rs 26,800 crore for R&D phase only. Jets will cost extra
http://www.defencenews.in/article/F...vide-India-cutting-edge-Air-Combat-Power-6696
PAKFA is a killer. You will not have any better plane in the world. It is fast, It maneuvers unparallelly. It has unmatched Radar and unmatched weapons. It is a true 5th generation fighter unlike the Chines Junk J 20 a third generation plane shaped to give an impression of a fifth generation plane.
 

smestarz

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MiG-29 upgrade makes it more potent speciall on western front, Hope it comes with AESA in later avatar and all the goodies, Mirage 2000 upgrade is disappointing, I guess Dassault will teach Indians how to use vacuum cleaer and to blow the dus away.. There is no new engine or new AESA,.. Nothing that justifies US$ 50 million a plane just for upgrades.

120 Tejas will go upto 200 - 300 in future with Navy might be eager to use them from shore bases making these planes both comfortable at land and sea.

36 Rafales.. hardly seems possible,..almost dead.

Super Sukhoi upgrades are very vital, Su-30 MKI is the best plane in South east Asia, and upgrading it with AESA and latest avionics and we are in better position to take the Chinese challenge..

PAKFA will be two versions, one directly produced in Russia will be single seat PAKFA and the twin seat FGFA will be purely made in India


India is finally taking forward the negotiations with Russia on stalled mega projects to jointly develop a futuristic fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) as well as upgrade its existing Sukhoi-30MKI jets into 'Super Sukhois' with advanced avionics and weapons.

Here's a low-down to the action plan that India has prepared to bolster its air defence system -


MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s are being upgraded ::
63 MiG-29s and 51 Mirage-2000s are being upgraded with better avionics and weapons. It involves a total cost of Rs 23,000 crore.

120 Tejas aircraft to be inducted ::
India plans to induct 120 Tejas aircraft by 2026 for which the total cost is estimated around Rs 55,000 crore.
Currently, 2 jets have been inducted and it is expected that first full squadron will be ready by 2018.

36 Rafale jets to be inducted ::
36 Rafale jets will be directly inducted from France from 2019 onwards. The estimated cost of the project is Rs 59,500 crores.

272 Sukhoi-30MKI jets to be inducted by 2018-19 ::
272 Sukhoi-30MKI jets to be inducted by 2018-19. They will be upgraded to 'Super Sukhois' in 2017. For this, total cost is pegged at Rs 55,717 crore.

Fifth-generation fighter aircraft ::
127 single-seat jets are expected to be inducted from 2022 onwards, which will cost around Rs 26,800 crore for R&D phase only. Jets will cost extra
http://www.defencenews.in/article/F...vide-India-cutting-edge-Air-Combat-Power-6696
 

Gessler

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MiG-29 upgrade makes it more potent speciall on western front,
Why especially on Western front?

Hope it comes with AESA in later avatar and all the goodies,
Not sure IAF Fulcrums will stay in service long enough to undergo yet another MLU. Far better to retire them by around 2025 and replenish their squadrons with more Super-MKIs.

Navy's MiG-29Ks, though, are another story. They're all recent-builds and they can & should incorporate the Phazotron FGA-29 GaN AESA in their first MLU. Together with a new OLS, and we would have gone for the same ELT-568 AESA-based Active jammers as on the MiG-29UPG but Elettronica S.p.A has a stake by Finmeccanica so that option is longer available. We'll have to look for alternatives elsewhere, if not develop them at home.

Mirage 2000 upgrade is disappointing,
IAF seems happy with it.

There is no new engine
What's wrong with the old one?

It has enough service life left and they have been partially refurbished as required.

Not every plane needs an AESA.

Speaking of non-AESAs, what does EL/M-2032 (that we're fitting on Tejas Mk-1 and some Jaguar upgrade variants) offer that RDY-2 does not?

,.. Nothing that justifies US$ 50 million a plane just for upgrades.
If your image of an "upgrade" was re-painting the old stuff, you have the wrong idea. The radar, avionics and EW suites are all brand new - derived from the Rafale's tech (not all of them are as capable, but fruit of the same tree nevertheless...much better than the old stuff).

The analogue systems in the cockpit are all replaced by a proper Glass cockpit with MFDs. Plus there is a new HMDS (jointly produced by Thales & SAMTEL).

Plus it includes the purchase price of nearly 500 MICA missiles (that part of the deal alone is worth around $1.2bn)....It is easy to disregard the details and just yell at everything that you don't like. It's plausible that around half of the upgrade contract went for the purchase of new missiles. And you're shouting that we're spending 50mil per plane.

What would be the point of having planes if you don't have missiles to fire off them?

120 Tejas will go upto 200 - 300 in future with Navy might be eager to use them from shore bases making these planes both comfortable at land and sea.
Up to 200-220 is very much possible. Beyond that I'm not sure.

36 Rafales.. hardly seems possible,..almost dead.
(yawn...)

Su-30 MKI is the best plane in South east Asia
That would be the Malaysian Su-30MKM. It has everything MKI has, plus on top of that it has MAWS.

PAKFA will be two versions, one directly produced in Russia will be single seat PAKFA and the twin seat FGFA will be purely made in India
There are two versions and both are FGFA, a single-seat and a twin-seat variant. Production of the former should start by around 2024 according to current plans. An initial $4bn will be spent by either side (India & Russia, total $8bn) on the R&D and setting up of production facilities.

And then the purchase of the first tranche of 60 aircraft should cost about $13bn at about $225mn per plane, and that's not including weapons.

But it's totally worth it.
 

smestarz

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Why especially on Western front?
For the north, and north east front, Chinese specific, onlyt eh Su-30 MKI are the planes that can take on the Chinese. Rafales would fail very badly, perhaps one of the reason for their failure would be MEDIUM.. They simply dont have the fuel or the warload to take the war to the chinese, unless the plane takes off and lands in China.

Not sure IAF Fulcrums will stay in service long enough to undergo yet another MLU. Far better to retire them by around 2025 and replenish their squadrons with more Super-MKIs.
Would it not be strange that IAF pushes for upgrade of Mirage the plane that was inducted before MiG-29.
Further it was MiG-29 that was the escort that ensured that Mirage 2000 were not shot down by PAF F-16
Further the upgrades that are available for MiG-29 already has possibility to have an AESA,, Mirage 2000 even after upgrade will not have an AESA.. To put the point clear,. MiG-29 at its present state is much more better than Mirage 2000 after upgrade which will continue to be the cannon fodder for the PAF and PLAAF if we send it unescorted on any mission. even A2A.
The important point is... MiG-29 has serious upgrades available, Mrage 2000 the only upgrade that was possibly given was new coat of paint. Does it have an AESA? did they come with new upgraded engines? What exactly was worth the 50 million that was put behind each upgrade? Does it bring a cutting edge tech or quality? The only thing that Mirage 2000 upgrade brought was bribes to Congress party and IAF top br ass.


Navy's MiG-29Ks, though, are another story. They're all recent-builds and they can & should incorporate the Phazotron FGA-29 GaN AESA in their first MLU. Together with a new OLS, and we would have gone for the same ELT-568 AESA-based Active jammers as on the MiG-29UPG but Elettronica S.p.A has a stake by Finmeccanica so that option is longer available. We'll have to look for alternatives elsewhere, if not develop them at home.
Some of the older MiGs may not get the upgrades that are deemed, but there was news that Israel in consultation with OEM would be able to provide the upgrades even with AESA and Active jammers.. something that might be related to Finnmeccania


IAF seems happy with it./
IAF top brass is happy with anything foreign that flies, IF you too threw a french towel from top of a building, IAF top brass would be inclined to buy it..


What's wrong with the old one?
It has enough service life left and they have been partially refurbished as required.
Then it does beg the question what really was worth 50 million of upgrade per unit?


Not every plane needs an AESA.
In todays skies, if the plane is deemed to be a fighter that is expected to fight off opposition it is needed.
At least IAF top brass felt that it was very important that they told HAL clearly that without an AESA which is need of the decade, they will not accept Tejas. But then when it comes to Mirage 2000 upgrade. they do not consider it important? Would in your world, Tejas and Mirage 2000 have different roles like two end of the spectrum where Tejas should have an AESA where as Mirage 2000 would not need it? It is not a dedicated Deep strike plane which would not need an AESA.


Speaking of non-AESAs, what does EL/M-2032 (that we're fitting on Tejas Mk-1 and some Jaguar upgrade variants) offer that RDY-2 does not?
Tejas Mk 1 is just to get things going, it is like a compromise.. but then building an entire new Tejas Mk1 is much cheaper than mere upgrade of Mirage 2000, I am asking your view on justification of such high cost for Mirage 2000 upgrade that does not bring in new engines, or AESA or anything excepts nuts and bolts produced in this decade.

If your image of an "upgrade" was re-painting the old stuff, you have the wrong idea. The radar, avionics and EW suites are all brand new - derived from the Rafale's tech (not all of them are as capable, but fruit of the same tree nevertheless...much better than the old stuff).
When the upgrade does not consist of either a new engine, or AESA radar or some avionics whose off the shelf price does not exceed 10 million then what should one ask
The EW suite, is the overhyped SPECTRA? No its not, Is this EW suite as capable as SPECTRA, possibly not else it would be bad marketing by Dassault. The point is that this upgrade was collusion between Dassault, congress and IAF top brass who take the decisions which in a way cannot justify the high cost of upgrades. Specially when MICA were purchased with a separate contract. A new Tejas comes at US$ 40 million a plane with imported GE engine, and just an upgrade of Mirage 2000 without new engine or anything cutting edge costs almost 25% more than tejas, Something is wrong, Something is very very wrong.

Further, going by this yardstick, if india takes the Rafale, the cost of upgrades over its lifetime might end up costing us almost 500 million a plane.. Imagine that.


The analogue systems in the cockpit are all replaced by a proper Glass cockpit with MFDs. Plus there is a new HMDS (jointly produced by Thales & SAMTEL).
Plus it includes the purchase price of nearly 500 MICA missiles (that part of the deal alone is worth around $1.2bn)....It is easy to disregard the details and just yell at everything that you don't like. It's plausible that around half of the upgrade contract went for the purchase of new missiles. And you're shouting that we're spending 50mil per plane.
Try not to confuse yourself, There were two separate contracts, One was for upgrade and another was MICA contract. Both were a separate contracts but linked, because MICA are to be used only by MIRAGE 2000 in IAF.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...aded-mirage-2000-fighters-115032600035_1.html

Also another point to add is that Mirage 2000 in its service in IAF has undergone overhaul twice The entire Mirage 2000 fleet underwent a first round of overhaul from 1991-94. The second overhaul round began in 2009.. so what was the fuss when Su-30 MKI were being overhauled?


What would be the point of having planes if you don't have missiles to fire off them?
Very true, then IAF and its top brass had the vision to have Mirage 2000 with laser guided smart bombs.. but they did not have the kit that would enable Mirage 2000 to use the laser guided bombs.
So it does not make sense to have a plane but no missiles, but it does make sense to have a plane for 15 years and with laser guided bombs, but not have targeting pods? I am lost for the logic, IAF top brass and yours. IAF top brass are one of the most incompetent top brass who look at the kickbacks possible with each potential purchase. In my book, IAF are slightly higher than the local police in terms of patriotism.


Up to 200-220 is very much possible. Beyond that I'm not sure.
Take your time, you will end up pushing the number to 300. Already NAVY seems eager to have Tejas not only on carrier but also on their land bases which they plan to develop for protection of the maritime coast. This will give the Naval Tejas much more versatility to be able to operate from land or carrier, The only draw back here is that usually the land version of carrier based planes can relax on many things specially the landing gear or land based plane and air frame need not be very strong and hence heavy. But then this will in a way be actually more useful than the gimmick of Mirage 2000 landing on national highway.
For a mirage 2000 to land on any highway, firstly the highway will have to be sealed, and further,, highway is not something that can be hidden, Thus an easy and stationary target, but on other hand, ability to take off from land bases, and to land on carrier, refuel, rearm and then complete is mission gives N-LCA much more versatility.


(yawn...)
My views exactly. India will be very happy to keep the discussions on. The French can be happy too keeping the discussions on, But the discussions are going nowhere and DM is not eager to close these either. In short its his way or the highway. But he is not going to shut the door, not as yet, he will let the French decide on their own if they accept his terms and conditions and of course prices. He need not push the french, the Americans are already seeing a huge potential to be big supplier to India. So without actually doing anything the screws are being tightened on the French. And perhaps by the time the French agree, it might be game set and match Americans, with the french left holding their tennis balls.



That would be the Malaysian Su-30MKM. It has everything MKI has, plus on top of that it has MAWS.
MAWS are there on most fighter planes. MKM has MAWS. Su-30 MKI uses Elta EL/M-8222 which is ESM based will be doing job of both Warning as well as jamming the incoming missile. So MKM has a system that alerts about a missile approach, Su-30 MKI has Elta EL/M-8222 which jams the approaching missile.


There are two versions and both are FGFA, a single-seat and a twin-seat variant. Production of the former should start by around 2024 according to current plans. An initial $4bn will be spent by either side (India & Russia, total $8bn) on the R&D and setting up of production facilities.

And then the purchase of the first tranche of 60 aircraft should cost about $13bn at about $225mn per plane, and that's not including weapons.
But it's totally worth it.
I doubt there would be two versions to produce, by the way FGFA is still being discussed, The FGFA will be twin engine plane which will be produced by HAL (very similar to how Su-30 MKI is being produced by HAL now) and PAKFA will be single seat, planes. Some of which will be produced directly from Russia I doubt HAL will produce single seat as well as twin seat versions, If they do, well and good. We already have some of the missiles that can be used with PAKFA just to start, The other weapons designed specifically for PAKFA can be purchased at a later date considering the threats that India will face.
 

Gessler

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For the north, and north east front, Chinese specific, onlyt eh Su-30 MKI are the planes that can take on the Chinese. Rafales would fail very badly, perhaps one of the reason for their failure would be MEDIUM.. They simply dont have the fuel or the warload to take the war to the chinese, unless the plane takes off and lands in China.
Maybe you haven't studied your maps...but China is right next door. Only TAR and Xinjiang provinces can put up airpower against India (mostly TAR), and it TAR there are only 3 covered approaches that Chinese can actively deploy against us.

You need to study how a CAP is conducted. If you think by "strike", it means IAF aircraft will go and bomb Lhasa with GP bombs or some deeper territory, you have a skewed image of war that is built on fantasies.

Rafale has more than enough fuel capacity & warload to handle any air or ground target, without depending on escorts. And it's low-altitude terrain-following flight capabilities are of great use in the Himalayas, far better than any Flanker. It's the perfect replacement for the Jaguar and the MiG-27M strike bombers - it can carry out any role they can, but unlike them it's not hopeless in A2A combat with Flankers or J-10s.

If you think otherwise, next time please try and prove your allegations instead of blabbering.

Would it not be strange that IAF pushes for upgrade of Mirage the plane that was inducted before MiG-29.
Further it was MiG-29 that was the escort that ensured that Mirage 2000 were not shot down by PAF F-16
Lol...protect Mirage from F-16...boy here seems to have forgotten that M2K had made a confirmed kill of Turkish F-16D over the Aegean...whereas the number of times Fulcrum was shot down by F-16 is..well,...countless.

Fulcrums were conducting a general CAP of the sector, air-policing to make sure PAF planes do not cross over. They were not escorting any Mirage on it's strike mission. You don't do that when there is no presence of enemy aircraft in that sector.

Further the upgrades that are available for MiG-29 already has possibility to have an AESA,
No. At the time of the upgrade, the Zhuk-AE was only available on the MiG-35 and Russians had made no offer to put it on MiG-29, for fear that it would destroy the 35's export prospects.

It was only recently that Phazotron came out with a family of new-gen AESA radars that can be utilized on both MiG-29 and 35, the FGA series. But till date, only prototype models of the FGA were shown at MAKS airshow. No operational model exists onboard an aircraft, although it's likely most of the development work is done.

Only the Navy 29Ks have scope for an MLU incorporating FGA-29. The IAF's Fulcrums aren't getting any better than what they are now, ever.

Mirage 2000 even after upgrade will not have an AESA.
Lol, man...what is your obsession with AESAs?? Sure active phased array has it's advantages over slotted-array types but anyone who believes slotted-array is useless is misinformed. If that were true, the E-3 Sentry would have been long discarded.

RDY-2 enables everything IAF wanted the Mirage-2000 to do. End of story.

No PAF aircraft has AESA either, and even PLAAF hasn't upgraded any of it's strike-focused aircraft with AESA. Only J-10B (which is a brand-new plane btw) is operational with AESA, and even that is heavily disputed.

To put the point clear,. MiG-29 at its present state is much more better than Mirage 2000 after upgrade which will continue to be the cannon fodder for the PAF and PLAAF if we send it unescorted on any mission. even A2A.
...yeah, just like Tejas, Jaguar (DARIN-3 upgrade), MiG-27 and MiG-21, right?

Any of those planes, on their own, is cannon fodder against PAF and PLAAF. You still seem to have difficultly understanding how an airpower force-structure works - every aircraft & squadron has it's own duty & role. If any one piece of the puzzle doesn't do it's job, the whole game collapses.

MiG-29 has serious upgrades available,
Correction...MiG-29K has serious upgrades available. That's the only Fulcrum with a future MLU in sight in Indian service.

Some of the older MiGs may not get the upgrades that are deemed, but there was news that Israel in consultation with OEM would be able to provide the upgrades even with AESA and Active jammers.. something that might be related to Finnmeccania
Anything related is Finmeccanica is not happening.

As of IAF Fulcrum radar upgrades...dream on.
 

Gessler

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@smestarz

MAWS are there on most fighter planes. MKM has MAWS. Su-30 MKI uses Elta EL/M-8222 which is ESM based will be doing job of both Warning as well as jamming the incoming missile. So MKM has a system that alerts about a missile approach, Su-30 MKI has Elta EL/M-8222 which jams the approaching missile.
Lol...MAWS and SPJs are two different things performing different roles.

MAWS are passive sensors. They can detect the heat emission from all types of incoming AAMs/SAMs. Radar or IR-guided. The EL/L-8222 is an Active jammer - it jams the seekers onboard radar-guided missiles - and is obviously useless against missile that have IR guidance, or against any missile who's seeker is inactive at the moment.

As you can see, two different things. But I forgive your stupid mistake...was never expecting much better from wannabe expert anyway.

MKM has it's 8222 equivalent in the SAP-518 jammer system from Russia. MKI on the other hand, still has no MAWS - and it's pretty disappointing as even Pakistani JF-17 Block-1 has MAWS.
 

Yumdoot

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Lol...protect Mirage from F-16...boy here seems to have forgotten that M2K had made a confirmed kill of Turkish F-16D over the Aegean...whereas the number of times Fulcrum was shot down by F-16 is..well,...countless.

Fulcrums were conducting a general CAP of the sector, air-policing to make sure PAF planes do not cross over. They were not escorting any Mirage on it's strike mission. You don't do that when there is no presence of enemy aircraft in that sector.
1>PAF had F-16A & F-16B at the time. F-16D is a water buffalo. Anybody can hit it. To top that nearly all the flying done by IAF during Kargil war, was day time flying.

2>Happy reading:
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/st...lted-the-kargil-war-in-india-s-favour-2108237
How the Air Force tilted the Kargil War in India's favour
ANIL CHOPRA | Sun, 26 Jul 2015-02:09pm , dna webdesk

IAF immediately reviewed its strategy and brought in Mirage 2000 fighters to drop high technology laser guided bombs from high altitude so as to remain above the ground fire lethal zone. These were escorted by MiG-29 air superiority fighters.

The author is a retired Air Marshal of the Indian Air Force.


RDY-2 enables everything IAF wanted the Mirage-2000 to do. End of story.
That did not stop IAF leadership from planting completely wrong stories in favour of Mirages. Why don't they for example say something about the RDM to RDY-2 migration and why it was needed?

Answer to that question will probably tell you why the IAF deployed mostly the Mig-29s for Escort and CAP duty during Kargil.

And just to give the idea of the near complete superiority of Mig-29:
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/kargil-summary1.html/
The following is a day by day description of Operation Safedsagar ("White Sea") compiled from publicly available sources. Please note that it is no way complete; for example, if there is no mention of escort flights (which were flown with every strike package) on a particular date, it does not mean no escort missions were flown. Similarly, if there is no mention of enemy SAMs being encountered, doesnt necessarily mean that none were fired on that day.
Trivia - upwards of 100 SAMs were fired by Pakis during Kargil.

Not trying to denigrate Mirage-2000 as useless but the wah-wah was absolutely over the top with no facts to back it up.
 
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Gessler

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F-16D is a water buffalo. Anybody can hit it.
Ofcourse.

One wonders why MiG-29 never managed to shoot it down.

That did not stop IAF leadership from planting completely wrong stories in favour of Mirages. Why don't they for example say something about the RDM to RDY-2 migration and why it was needed?
RDY-2 was the most capable radar certified on the Mirage-2K at that time. It's only logical that IAF went for it.

Answer to that question will probably tell you why the IAF deployed mostly the Mig-29s for Escort and CAP duty during Kargil.

Not trying to denigrate Mirage-2000 as useless but the wah-wah was absolutely over the top with no facts to back it up.
MiG-29 could not perform a precision strike role as it did not have suitable LGBs and LDPs at the time. Mirage-2000 did. With the Mirages doing strike, what was left for the Fulcrums to do except CAP?

MiG-29 at that time had BVR armament as IAF purchased those for it. So obviously it was put to use.
 

Bahamut

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Ofcourse.

One wonders why MiG-29 never managed to shoot it down.
Sir in the case Mig 29 had inferior pilot and we not maintain properly and lack AWACS support but on a equal ground Mig 29 prove better then F 16 and F 15 on exercise by NATO countries.
 

Yumdoot

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Ofcourse.

One wonders why MiG-29 never managed to shoot it down.
From the same link of Retd. Air Marshal provided in the last post:
IAF was given the go ahead to strike enemy positions in an operation code-named 'Safed Sagar', but were not allowed to cross the LoC

RDY-2 was the most capable radar certified on the Mirage-2K at that time. It's only logical that IAF went for it.
Can you talk in specifics?


MiG-29 could not perform a precision strike role as it did not have suitable LGBs and LDPs at the time. Mirage-2000 did. With the Mirages doing strike, what was left for the Fulcrums to do except CAP?
Do you even know:
How many precision strike LGBs were dropped by Mirages in Kargil war?
And what percentage of dumb bombs dropped by Mirages it represented?
And what percentage of total strike missions did the Mirages conduct?

MiG-29 at that time had BVR armament as IAF purchased those for it. So obviously it was put to use.

Escort & CAPs are not guaranteed to be BVR compliant.
 

Gessler

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From the same link of Retd. Air Marshal provided in the last post:
Leave Kargil alone...there is no reliable record of MiG-29 shooting down any F-16 in history whereas the Viper managed to bring down several Fulcrums over the decades. F-16 and Mirage coming into contact against each other is very rare, but on that occasion the Mirage came out on top.

The other poster was making it seem as if Mirages would have been totally defenceless and hopeless against F-16s if not for the MiG-29. That is fundamentally flawed.

I agree Fulcrum was the more logical choice to use as an air-superiority aircraft (because 1) Mirages in theatre were being put to strike role & 2) only MiG-29 had BVR armament at that time, giving it a one-up on the WVR-only F-16s), but this does not mean in any way that Mirage-2K would not have been able to hold their own against the F-16s if it came to that.

Can you talk in specifics?
Regarding what?

To this day, RDY-2 remains the most capable radar on any operational variant of Mirage-2000. The RDY-3 is actually a cheaper, A2A-focused version of RDY-1, which makes it less versatile than the thoroughly multi-role RDY-2 which incorporates a wide array of A2A and A2G modes.

Do you even know:
How many precision strike LGBs were dropped by Mirages in Kargil war?
And what percentage of dumb bombs dropped by Mirages it represented?
And what percentage of total strike missions did the Mirages conduct?
What exactly is your point?

Are you just out to somehow make it seem that the operations conducted by Mirage were inconsequential? The M2K's contribution was indispensable toward the end.
 

Gessler

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Sir in the case Mig 29 had inferior pilot and we not maintain properly and lack AWACS support but on a equal ground Mig 29 prove better then F 16 and F 15 on exercise by NATO countries.
Never doubted the Fulcrum's quality as an air-superiority platform, dude. My point was against people who
are out to propagate the misconception that Mirage-2000 is a dud in air combat and that it wouldn't have been able to survive against F-16s if not for the support provided by MiG-29 - which is an extremely flawed & retarded logic.

Nothing conclusive (on a large scale) can ever come out of air-exercise results, believe me. Exercises have more to do with an aircraft's performance in very specific conditions. MiG-21s managed to thrash F-15Cs in Cope India 2004 - that doesn't mean F-15 is a crap fighter or that MiG-21 can serve for another 30 years.

But in real combat, the results are absolute reverse. As I said, one cannot make a blanket statement (either way) about an aircraft based on the results of a particular air-exercise.
 

Yumdoot

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Leave Kargil alone...there is no reliable record of MiG-29 shooting down any F-16 in history whereas the Viper managed to bring down several Fulcrums over the decades. F-16 and Mirage coming into contact against each other is very rare, but on that occasion the Mirage came out on top.

The other poster was making it seem as if Mirages would have been totally defenceless and hopeless against F-16s if not for the MiG-29. That is fundamentally flawed.
Mirages vs F-16 is certainly fundamentally flawed. The first look first shoot is more then enough facility for a well trained fighter pilot.

But Mirage vs. Mig-29 matches are not that rare either. IAF TACDE has as one of its main task the conduct of DACT trainings. And all the condensed knowledge by these highly trained pilots have made sure that Mig-29 continue on its 'Air superiority' role while Mirages be brought in line for similar capabilities.

Essentially a Mig-29 = "F-16 without any debilitations induced by American theoretical overshoot". F-16 too could have improved itself had the Americans not tried to make it a jack of all.

Tangentially a Mig-29 = smaller Flanker.

There is a lot of organizational memory dictating these development paths.


I agree Fulcrum was the more logical choice to use as an air-superiority aircraft (because 1) Mirages in theatre were being put to strike role & 2) only MiG-29 had BVR armament at that time, giving it a one-up on the WVR-only F-16s), but this does not mean in any way that Mirage-2K would not have been able to hold their own against the F-16s if it came to that.

Regarding what?

To this day, RDY-2 remains the most capable radar on any operational variant of Mirage-2000. The RDY-3 is actually a cheaper, A2A-focused version of RDY-1, which makes it less versatile than the thoroughly multi-role RDY-2 which incorporates a wide array of A2A and A2G modes.
If its any consolation then there were mutual Mirage vs. F-16 lock-on also reported during Kargil, admitted to be very senior Pakistani Air Force officers.

And even Mirages did escort duty for other types of planes. In fact IAF Mirages had played escort duty as early as 1987 Jaffna food-drops.

But that still does not make it a good enough plane for air defence or air superiority.

And Mig-29 superiority during kargil was not only on account of BVR capabilitiy.

Mig-29 since beginning could lock onto to multiple targets, something that the Mirage will be able to do only now. And the WVR maneuvering is legendary.


What exactly is your point?

Are you just out to somehow make it seem that the operations conducted by Mirage were inconsequential? The M2K's contribution was indispensable toward the end.
Actually Exactly that. Mirage was a half-ass dressed up as lion.

And here's why:
How many precision strike LGBs were dropped by Mirages in Kargil war?
Answer - 8 (1 was dropped by a Jaguar). All 8 dropped in just one mission of 2/3 Mirages. And only because of a horny chief's wishes.

And what percentage of dumb bombs dropped by Mirages it represented?
Answer - Don't remember by numbers but Mirages dropped 55 tons of ord. So most liberal figure would be ~20% presuming only 1 ton LGBs were dropped.

And what percentage of total strike missions did the Mirages conduct?
Answer - Again don't remember exactly but Mirages flew ~475 missions (not all were strike missions). Kargil overall involved ~575 strike sorties. So clearly the IAF put it into service far more often compared to Mig-27.

But this is half the answer because this would leave you with an impression that Mirages were somehow special. Well they were in some ways but not to the extent that Mig-27s would be abused to this degree.

For fuller answer, you need to further consider that the number of strike missions represented only 25% of the total strike capability at the disposal of just the Western Air Command. This extra ordinary degree of strike capability with IAF is one of the reasons why Mig-29 is special. That is why there is a difference between an FCL and FSL training.

And what was the Mig-27 capable of with laser queing but with dumb bombs: 15 meter accuracy from 7.5 km. So the KLENS could have been upgraded but were not. Instead somebody specifically decided that Mig-27 upgrade must be Indigenous which obviously would have to wait till 2007-2010 period.
Without upgrades the Soviets were getting 30 meter without even using KLENS, from similar distance in Afghanistan during 1989 war.

And even with LDP what was the average release distance (including from Mirages) during Kargil :
Answer: 6 to 7 km.

And what was the average bombing run like, during kargil, by Mirages and others:
Answer: Salvo mode.

So yes Mirages were highly over-rated during kargil. A story build up overtime for fanboys but with ulterior motives to line up the upgrades in a fashion that only some kind of equipment can be made to look good when in fact it was merely an exercise in hiding prior costly mistakes in acquisitions.
 
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smestarz

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Your biggest problem is that you are a blabbering idiot who sometimes misses the whole elephant.
Missions and CAPs (Combat air patrols) are different, Do try and learn those basics please

I know the Chinese map, unfortunately you seem to know them only in 2 dimensions, how about other dimensions? Tibet is a plateau but it is not at sea level it is at height, and its worlds highesh plateau. Thus any plane that goes on to tibet, is at a serious disavantage, where the enemy SAMs are few thousand feet closer to the aircraft ceiling than normal. What targets are IAF going to hit in tibet or Xingjiang province? The only things that Rafale can hit would be some Chinese military installations, and then since China is just across the border, even Tejas can hit, so why the need of Rafale? In fact Su-30 MKI has much better range than Rafale and hence would not need to sacrifice warload for Range. And just for your info, there is another area where Chinese will strike, that will be our Eastern sector, their Yunnan province that will target Arunachal pradesh, Do try to get your facts please.
I have studied a lot of strategies, and the only time when IAF can have an upper hand that is only when the Chinese planes are over India,. Indian planes over China, not really good for IAF. Rafale will be just cannon fodder.

Maybe you haven't studied your maps...but China is right next door. Only TAR and Xinjiang provinces can put up airpower against India (mostly TAR), and it TAR there are only 3 covered approaches that Chinese can actively deploy against us.

You need to study how a CAP is conducted. If you think by "strike", it means IAF aircraft will go and bomb Lhasa with GP bombs or some deeper territory, you have a skewed image of war that is built on fantasies.

Rafale has more than enough fuel capacity & warload to handle any air or ground target, without depending on escorts. And it's low-altitude terrain-following flight capabilities are of great use in the Himalayas, far better than any Flanker. It's the perfect replacement for the Jaguar and the MiG-27M strike bombers - it can carry out any role they can, but unlike them it's not hopeless in A2A combat with Flankers or J-10s.

If you think otherwise, next time please try and prove your allegations instead of blabbering.

Its monsoon and you already getting humped by amphibians? Or you are Bon plans indians sweetheat? I guess you just read the header and were very proud that a french plane brought down American plane,,just try to get some facts and then post

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=755&sid=b7f030585c3498ed845204d5d264c0cd&start=15

Lol...protect Mirage from F-16...boy here seems to have forgotten that M2K had made a confirmed kill of Turkish F-16D over the Aegean...whereas the number of times Fulcrum was shot down by F-16 is..well,...countless.
What I have heard and seen from different sources indicates 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112. Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage-2000s took off from their forward base, turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, Turkish 2 F-16s (one C, one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time.

Turkish ground controller directed 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage-2000s to intercept them before Mirage-2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement.

F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with Lt Grivas. Back seater in Turkish F-16D was Lt Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Erdogan.

After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. it caused an explosion, put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col. Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly.

The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios and Col Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program.

This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that Grivas visited him in the hospital and apologized for his mistake which is "forgetting Arm Switch is ON". Rest is history...

Some Greeks argued that Grivas got orders from GCI and fired that missile but it is unlikely considering that that kind of order in peace time, and against a NATO ally. Also, there were rumors that Grivas thought he is under attack since F-16D locked its radar, then in self defense he fired a magic. This could not be true either. A NATO pilot should know a radar lock does not mean you are fired at (considering that there was no war but simulated dogfight). In addition F-16D was not armed considering it was a usual training flight.

After this incident Turkish side did not go to Aegean without weapons. In thousands of engagements in Aegean, each side locked radars on other side. It is not a scary thing to fire a missile to save yourself?

Only, good explanation to this whole incident is really Grivas forgot his Arm switch was on and fired it by mistake (I don?t also ignore the possibility that during the engagement, he could have lost his temper little bit, and went too far).

I should also add this, sometimes ROE mentioned by Greeks or some other people, claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and Grivas have had right to fire. But they forget that air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past, and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire...but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home...

Next time, please dong give BS on this forum, you can show this attitude where they have made you the MoD, do try to read before you post.

When you pit the F-16s against the first MiG-29A then F-16 will do better, unfortunately for PAF, India does not have MiG-29A in its arsenal.. tsk tsk
 
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Gessler

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Your biggest problem is that you are a blabbering idiot who sometimes misses the whole elephant.
Missions and CAPs (Combat air patrols) are different, Do try and learn those basics please
First get off your drug-induced high that you get from saste nashe purchased with your Boeing paycheck.

I know the Chinese map, unfortunately you seem to know them only in 2 dimensions, how about other dimensions? Tibet is a plateau but it is not at sea level it is at height, and its worlds highesh plateau. Thus any plane that goes on to tibet, is at a serious disavantage,
No, rather, any plane that takes off from Tibet is at a serious disadvantage. As it puts a great deal of payload restrictions during take-off. On the other hand, if you operate from the Indian side, such payload-restrictions are minimal.

"The IAF’s air bases in Jammu & Kashmir, Uttarakhand and western Uttar Pradesh enable its Su-30MKIs and MiG-29UPGs (plus the Mirage 2000UPGs, Tejas Mk1s and re-engined Jaguar IS/DARIN-3 in future) to takeoff with their maximum permissible weapons payloads and enter Chinese airspace by stealth by utilizing their terrain-masking capabilities—something not possible to be achieved by the PLAAF due to the flat terrain at much higher altitudes prevailing within TAR."
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2013/05/what-china-really-wants.html

And those three valley approaches in TAR I mentioned above are the logical paths any IAF/PLAAF aircraft will choose if it doesn't want to be detected by long-wavelength airspace surveillance radars.

where the enemy SAMs are few thousand feet closer to the aircraft ceiling than normal.
...making survivability factors like low RCS, all-round passive awareness and lower visual signature, and the ability to conduct terrain-masking flight all the more important. Unfortunately for you, Rafale does better than MKI in all of those.

What targets are IAF going to hit in tibet or Xingjiang province?
Targets that are combat-effective against India, basically anything that supports their Air/Ground campaign.

The only things that Rafale can hit would be some Chinese military installations,
Yeah...while MKI goes and attacks Beijing with gravity bombs.

and then since China is just across the border, even Tejas can hit, so why the need of Rafale?
At their maximum payloads, you need 3 LCAs to drop as much ordnance as a single Rafale. Being twin-engined Rafale has better survivability even if hit or in face of technical issues mid-flight. And finally because Tejas would get chewed up by J-10s and J-11s unless supported by Rafale/MKI as air-cover.

So technically you'll need atleast 5 aircraft on station (3 LCAs, atleast 2 escorts) to equate the effect of a single Rafale doing that role.

In fact Su-30 MKI has much better range than Rafale and hence would not need to sacrifice warload for Range.
Yes, you get better range with MKI...at the expense of being far easier to detect & shoot down, being completely unaware of approaching heat-seeking missiles (or RF-guided before they activate the seekers) from sides/rear, being forced to stay at high(er) altitudes, therefore more vulnerable to SAMs as the Flanker's terrain-masking performance is next to nothing compared to the likes of Rafale or even Jaguar.

You have quite the trade-off there....and far less likelihood that any MKI that sets off on such a mission will ever return alive.

Rafale will be just cannon fodder.
BS. Rafale can handle any present & foreseeable PLAAF fighter. A fighting chance against J-20 is also possible (though, if you want dominance, you need to get the FGFA).

Feel free to prove otherwise.

Its monsoon and you already getting humped by amphibians? Or you are Bon plans indians sweetheat? I guess you just read the header and were very proud that a french plane brought down American plane,,just try to get some facts and then post

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=755&sid=b7f030585c3498ed845204d5d264c0cd&start=15



What I have heard and seen from different sources indicates 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112. Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage-2000s took off from their forward base, turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, Turkish 2 F-16s (one C, one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time.

Turkish ground controller directed 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage-2000s to intercept them before Mirage-2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement.

F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with Lt Grivas. Back seater in Turkish F-16D was Lt Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Erdogan.

After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. it caused an explosion, put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col. Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly.

The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios and Col Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program.

This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that Grivas visited him in the hospital and apologized for his mistake which is "forgetting Arm Switch is ON". Rest is history...

Some Greeks argued that Grivas got orders from GCI and fired that missile but it is unlikely considering that that kind of order in peace time, and against a NATO ally. Also, there were rumors that Grivas thought he is under attack since F-16D locked its radar, then in self defense he fired a magic. This could not be true either. A NATO pilot should know a radar lock does not mean you are fired at (considering that there was no war but simulated dogfight). In addition F-16D was not armed considering it was a usual training flight.

After this incident Turkish side did not go to Aegean without weapons. In thousands of engagements in Aegean, each side locked radars on other side. It is not a scary thing to fire a missile to save yourself?

Only, good explanation to this whole incident is really Grivas forgot his Arm switch was on and fired it by mistake (I don?t also ignore the possibility that during the engagement, he could have lost his temper little bit, and went too far).

I should also add this, sometimes ROE mentioned by Greeks or some other people, claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and Grivas have had right to fire. But they forget that air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past, and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire...but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home...

Next time, please dong give BS on this forum, you can show this attitude where they have made you the MoD, do try to read before you post.

Lol...F-16.net, the hub of F16 fanboys. Great source you have there mate, I'm sure you spent all morning searching for it, didn't you?

When you pit the F-16s against the first MiG-29A then F-16 will do better, unfortunately for PAF, India does not have MiG-29A in its arsenal.. tsk tsk
Neither does PAF have only F-16A in it's arsenal.
 

Yumdoot

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Sorry bhailog about my own acerbic comments, but you two also need to go a little slower on the trigger.

Just remember, we all may be geniuses but the decision making is not with us. Having a favourite aircraft is not the same thing as India buying it.

@Gessler, a few more inputs.

Taking off from Tibetan air bases is not impossible even with MTOW. It is only difficult. Requires a long long take off role. Once in air at a certain altitude, there are playoffs for low-wing loaded vs. high speed dash planes.

LCA will have its advantages against J-10s and even J-20s. IAF pilots have already started using LCA and they will develop tactics for their needs and to their strengths.

Yes at MTOW you will require 3 LCA to carry as much as 1 Rafale. But these 3 LCAs will be able to attack from 3 different directions and will have 1/3rd the chance of getting killed and force the enemy thrice as hard to look for them and shoot them.

Detecting AAM even in sustain phase is not difficult. Given that even heated pitot tubes can be tracked for aircrafts there is no reason why appropriate warning cannot be given for a rapidly approaching high velocity AAM. Agreed there are difficulties that IAF has faced on this one count but then somehow PLAAF and Malaysian Air Forces have not reported any such difficulties with their versions of Sukhois. IAF has had a sautela relationship with Su-30MKI is well known for example till date there is no External fuel pod for Su-30MKI. There is no buddy refueling pod either. Metal turnings/chippings get found in the fuel supply. Crazy pilots get their hands on the Sukhoi. Spares agreements remain pending or a decade and a half. A DC-MAWS is a small thing to go wrong.

BTW PLAAF is retrofitting its J-11s and MKMs came with a MAWS already. The Russians have their own DC-MAWS by now for both Mig and Su series. During this time IAF most likely did not feel it urgent to have a Dual Colour MAWS and even till date they have not said much about it to have it imported from its favourite vendors. BTW the Dual Colour MAWS that was having difficulties was also a half import, so much for importing from foreigners.

Phew! it really is difficult to be civil these days. I did try my best here :). Best of luck.

Aside - PAF till 2010 had mostly F-16As with it:
http://www.f16.net/f16_users_article14.html
 
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StealthFlanker

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Lol, man...what is your obsession with AESAs?? Sure active phased array has it's advantages over slotted-array types but anyone who believes slotted-array is useless is misinformed. If that were true, the E-3 Sentry would have been long discarded.

RDY-2 enables everything IAF wanted the Mirage-2000 to do. End of story.

No PAF aircraft has AESA either, and even PLAAF hasn't upgraded any of it's strike-focused aircraft with AESA. Only J-10B (which is a brand-new plane btw) is operational with AESA, and even that is heavily disputed.
.
But AESA is still much better than PESA though
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/08/11/radar-fundamentals-part-ii/
 

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