F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

asianobserve

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:rolleyes:



Facts speak for itself. RAMJET is successful when you use it in an operational capacity.
Why do you have to keep on repeating this. The Americans have used Ramjet earlier than the Soviets. While the Americans have already phased out their 50s Ramjet powered missiles in favor of solid fueled rocket engined missiles, the Russians are stuck with their analogous Ramjet systems.


SAMs are the easy way out. Heck Akash SAM is also a RAMJET and we designed it in the 80s.
The analogous American systems were designed by them 40 years earlier than you. As a matter of fact hey already phased it out way back in the 70s.


The Americans hit a bottleneck in the technology. That's the reason they did not pursue the design.
No. The Americans and the British developed more efficient solid fueled rockets for missile application. Notice how the rest of the World including Russia have fielded state of the art solid fueled missiles for all kind of applications.

The reason Ramjet was favored in the late 40s and early 50s for SAM duties was because they provided a longer range than early solid fueled rockets. But this advantage is no longer true now.


American SCRAMJET attempts started after Russia transferred technology for their designs in the 1993-97 period. Before that, there were technological bottlenecks that they could not surpass at the time.
Point out the technology from Russia in X-43 and other American Scramjet programs?


They are already a step ahead of the world. Do I need to repeat this again? Both Russia and India (through a JV with Russia) are designing and bench testing missiles for operational use. The rest of the world is still designing experimentals. That alone is a massive difference in capability.
They are still in the design phase and you are already proclaiming their supremacy? Hahaha! My apologies for laughing at your claim but they're really laughable.



Talos and Sea Dart are not equivalents to the Brahmos. Heck, they are SAMs, not sea skimming missiles.


The Americans made IRST operational on aircraft first, but these were not employed in air to air.
Thank you for at least admitting this fact (I thought even this you will contest). We were only discussing about who was the first to operationally employ IR tech on aircrafts and missiles.


High offbore sight missiles, IR sensors, super maneuverability, these are all stuff the Russians developed and brought it to operational capacity.
I told you the Americans developed it first but did not implement. It's the same reasoning that delayed the fielding of their Pershing tanks in WW2 as the top brass thought that the M4 was a safer and proven tech.


So, are you still trying to impress me with stuff that we already have?
The Americans developed and fielded it first, you even admitted it remember?
 

asianobserve

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Haha. Now you are talking.

You were comparing experimentals with operational systems all this while.

When I said Russians have actual operational systems, you were trying to back American technology with experimentals.

Now when I pointed out the Russians already have experimental capability and bringing it to operational capacity on PAKFA, you are asking for the system to be designed first.

Now do you see how this works. You compare operational systems with other operational systems. You don't bring in experimentals into the domain of operational systems.

Anyway, how about letting pictures speak for themselves?



Zoom in on the tail and look at the radiation symbol on the cone. What do you think that is for?



No it is not. PAKFA will be the first aircraft to have direct access to satellites. Link 16 has nothing to do with it. It is a datalink between other assets.

F-22 don't use Link 16s, they currently use MADL which links 4 F-22s together. A more refined datalink is in development.

Due to the extreme range of Flankers and now the PAKFA, the aircraft tend to operate well within enemy territory and most of the times are cut off from land based communication systems. AWACS help remove that obstacle, but even AWACS cannot operate inside enemy territory. Hence they will use a submarine type of link with satellites to maintain communications even when deep inside enemy territory. This is the communications aspect. Navigation will also be linked to satellites due to the higher capability the PAKFA will bring in through its stealthy design. These links are directional and are nearly impossible to jam.

Communications capability already exists in other aircraft, but navigation does not. Meaning current aircraft, including F-35, don't get images from satellites in real time for navigation.

The Pentagon says the F-35 will possess a satellite communications capability that integrates beyond-line-of-sight communications and will lead the defense community in the migration to the Net-centric war-fighting force of the future.

Satellite communications - The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program (pictures) - CNET News

Think about it. If the US invaded Malaysia today, what will the 18 MKMs do to the Americans.

Or is it that with just 18 MKMs, you will fight off the entire horde of American teen fighters?
If the MKKs are what the Russians advertised them to be then I expect that we will shoot down at least the same number of invading aircrafts as our own. Or if we cannot make a 1-to-1 kill then maybe 2 of their aircrafts? But definitely we will not be 0 kill at the end of the day.

BTW, NATO did not conduct air ops over Kosovo with the entire horde of American Teen series jets.
 

Yusuf

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@p2prada, what's the meaning of the radiation symbol on the tail end?
 
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asianobserve

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I missed this out.

Talos and Sea Dart are not equivalents to the Brahmos. Heck, they are SAMs, not sea skimming missiles.
The design is more or less the same, especially the propulsion systems. There's not much difference in aerodynamic features between these missiles. The difference is on flight profile and mode of targeting (of course targets) which more internal features of the missiles, more particularly on their navigational, targeting systems, maybe warheads.
 

p2prada

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Why do you have to keep on repeating this. The Americans have used Ramjet earlier than the Soviets. While the Americans have already phased out their 50s Ramjet powered missiles in favor of solid fueled rocket engined missiles, the Russians are stuck with their analogous Ramjet systems.
:facepalm:

The Americans don't have RAMJETs equivalent to Russian systems. That's because they didn't believe they needed RAMJET technology.

They were developing new Brahmos equivalent RAMJET cruise missiles for anti ship needs. However the LRASM-B was cancelled last year for unknown reasons. They haven't yet told why they cancelled it but considering they cancelled just before flight tests, they will only blame it on certain "technical difficulties." :laugh:

Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM)

The British are planning a Brahmos equivalent by 2040.

Gee, they cannot yet build a 80s base Brahmos and you expect them to be at par with the Russians.

The analogous American systems were designed by them 40 years earlier than you. As a matter of fact hey already phased it out way back in the 70s.
The first RAMJET powered flight was in Russia. The first SCRAMJET powered flight was in Russia. Even today, the west is behind the Russians in developing and fielding SCRAMJETS.

No. The Americans and the British developed more efficient solid fueled rockets for missile application. Notice how the rest of the World including Russia have fielded state of the art solid fueled missiles for all kind of applications.
Notice how the west is still trying to develop a Brahmos equivalent system.

The reason Ramjet was favored in the late 40s and early 50s for SAM duties was because they provided a longer range than early solid fueled rockets. But this advantage is no longer true now.
Not exactly. RAMJETS were bulky. Solid rocket motor was cheap. That's about it. In terms of powered flight and speed, the RAMJET topped the list. Why do you think Meteor is getting so much attention. Powered flight, something solid motor isn't capable of.

Point out the technology from Russia in X-43 and other American Scramjet programs?
Current and past SCRAMJET programs are mired in secrecy. It is yet unknown what Russian technology is being used in western programs, however it all started from Russia.

I already posted the links.

The fact is X-43 directly started right after Russia transferred technology to NASA between 1994-98.

Холод
Although scramjet combustion chamber design and production technology continuously developed from flight to flight, further development of hydrogen scramjet research program is closely linked with the development of the second generation of GLL. It is intended for basic research problems of hypersonic flight relating to the development of aerospace planes. It will be a small hypersonic glider, clocked a ballistic missile or space. This GLL ( X-43A Hiper-X) is created in the United States. Prior to its flight test Americans were forced to buy our results: experiment with GLL "Cold" in 1998, was conducted under a contract with NASA.
The X-43A directly took technology from Russia and implemented it thanks to a larger budget.

However, Russians programs are still a step ahead, to the point of making operational systems.

They are still in the design phase and you are already proclaiming their supremacy? Hahaha! My apologies for laughing at your claim but they're really laughable.
Brahmos 2 is in the design stage, but we don't know at what stage the LRCM is at.

The Americans are finding it difficult to build a Brahmos equivalent while Russia is already in the hypersonic realm and you say the Americans are ahead. :rolleyes:

Thank you for at least admitting this fact (I thought even this you will contest). We were only discussing about who was the first to operationally employ IR tech on aircrafts and missiles.
OMG, why don't you understand simple facts. IR systems employed during those times were rudimentary. IR systems are vast in their uses and the techniques used are also different. Your TV remote control is an IR system while your TV has an IR detector so you can go around proclaiming you have technology equivalent to the F-35 in the palm of your hands.

The first IR detector was made in 1835.

The British made the first IRST in 1917, during WW1.

Infrared is that old. The first actual combat capable "advanced" system that has a link to the F-35's EO-DASS is the Russian OLS. Meaning the Russians started it all. The others followed suit.

Why don't you understand this instead of going into the 200 year history of IR to prove your baseless points!!!

Don't try to reinvent the wheel when we are discussing modern cars. Or else we will have to go back to 3000 BC in order to prove which car is the better one.

I told you the Americans developed it first but did not implement. It's the same reasoning that delayed the fielding of their Pershing tanks in WW2 as the top brass thought that the M4 was a safer and proven tech.
No, the British did it first in an operational capacity. The Soviets, Americans, French etc, all worked on IR systems since the early 19th century.

The Americans developed and fielded it first, you even admitted it remember?
It wasn't meant for air combat. Only acted as a detector. Its like comparing your TV to the EO-DASS or OLS.

The point being, what the Russians began in the 80s, the Americans did today.
 

p2prada

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If the MKKs are what the Russians advertised them to be then I expect that we will shoot down at least the same number of invading aircrafts as our own. Or if we cannot make a 1-to-1 kill then maybe 2 of their aircrafts? But definitely we will not be 0 kill at the end of the day.
Not a chance. Shows you don't know anything about how air warfare works.

1:1 kill happens when you have equal numbers for aircraft in the 4th gen and lower.

With lower numbers the kill ratio is always lopsided due to a number of reasons.

When the F-15 was first created, in a 1 on 1 fight, it had a kill ratio of over 7:1 against the F-4. Even when small number of F-4s fought a similar number of F-15s, the kill ratio was in favor of the F-15. But when massive numbers fought, the kill ratio nearly equalized.

So, expecting 18 MKMs, of which some are expected to be grounded due to serviceability issues, won't give much of a fight against a superior force.

Even if IAF places 3 or 4 squadrons of MKIs in the Andamans for a fight against the 18 MKMs, the MKMs won't be able to put up a fight. Meaning a 1:1 kill ratio is impossible. Rather the MKMs may be lucky to even get one kill.

BTW, NATO did not conduct air ops over Kosovo with the entire horde of American Teen series jets.
Over 1000 fighter jets, F-117 and B-2 excluded, against 14 Mig-29 (which did not even have properly serviceable radars) and 2 squadrons of old 2nd generation Mig-21s.

Also, the MKMs are very advanced fighters, of the 4.5th gen category. The Serbian Mig-29s did not even know they were painted and shot at. They did not have sensors to warn them let alone engage, those were flying targets.

The design is more or less the same, especially the propulsion systems. There's not much difference in aerodynamic features between these missiles. The difference is on flight profile and mode of targeting (of course targets) which more internal features of the missiles, more particularly on their navigational, targeting systems, maybe warheads.
So, there is no difference between a SAM and an AShM. Interesting hypothesis.

Shoot a mail out to DARPA. Tell them you can solve their LRASM-B issues.
 
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SajeevJino

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"F-35 super stealth plane will get pilots shot down in aerial combat" new leaked report says


According to an article published by the Washington Times New Pentagon super fighter will get pilots shot down, warns report - Washington Times, the F-35A, the Conventional Take Off and Landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter, would be defeated in aerial combat because of his current shortcomings.

Mentioning a leaked Pentagon report made available by POGO,The Air Force's F-35A: Not Ready for Combat, Not Even Ready for Combat Training the article explains that "out-of-cockpit visibility in the F-35A is less than other Air Force fighter aircraft" thus limiting a pilot's ability to see aerial threats surrounding him.

The problem is in the large head rest that impede rear visibility and the ability of the pilot to check the aircraft's 6 o'clock for incoming aerial or surface threats.

Another shortcoming is the aircraft adveniristic helmet mounted display system (HMDS Gen. II), that has not yet solved focal problems, blurry and double vision in the display and misalignment of the virtual horizon display with the actual horizon.

The HMDS Gen. II integrates FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) and DAS (Distributed Aperture System) imaging, and night vision (without somehow uncomfortable NVGs – Night Vision Goggles) into a single helmet in which essential flight and weapon aiming information are project onto a virtual HUD (Head Up Display) on the visor.

Few weeks ago in a Flight Global piece by Dave Majumdar, Bill Flynn, Lockheed test pilot responsible for flight envelope expansion activities for the F-35 had claimed that all three variants of the Joint Strike Fighter will have better kinematic performance than any fourth-generation fighter plane with combat payload, including the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Such claims were strongly disputed by a Eurofighter Typhoon industry test pilot, who tried to debunk all Flynn's "theories" about the alleged superior F-35 performance.

Considered the above mentioned F-35"²s flaws (and all the shortcomings highlighted by the report"¦), the kinematic performance of the (recently, once again, grounded) stealth fighter, is the least problem.

Aviation journalist David Axe has published an insightful piece about Lockheed Martin's marketing efforts to keep up "the much-delayed, over-budget" F-35 Joint Strike Fighter reputation.


The Aviationist » “F-35 super stealth plane will get pilots shot down in aerial combat” new leaked report says
 

asianobserve

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:facepalm:

The Americans don't have RAMJETs equivalent to Russian systems. That's because they didn't believe they needed RAMJET technology.
Again, not true. The Americans had the engine tech for a long time.

LRASM-B leverages prior ramjet development activities and a suite of supporting sensors and avionics to achieve a supersonic cruise missile with balanced speed and stealth for robust performance.

Lockheed Martin · pr_missiles_LMReceives218MillionforLo
The LRASM-B is a markedly different design: a high-altitude supersonic cruise missile with a ramjet engine, multimode seeker and a 500 pound blast fragmentation warhead. LRASM-B is based on the Air Force ramjet missile program, the Advanced Strategic Air Lunched Missile, which was cancelled for budget reasons in 1980 after seven successful test flights.

LRASM-B "offers speed over stealthty penetration," McHenry said. "[It]is built on a heritage flight tested ramjet that have been adopted to optimise its capabilities for the LRASM mission."


Seapower - December 2011
The LRASM-B design did not follow the design template in the Indo-Russian Bhramos, as said above it is based on the cancelled 1970s ASALM which was a solid fueled ramjet. Most prominent of the design carry-over if the chin inlet (Bhramos has a traditional circular wrap around inlet):

"LRASM-B features a chin [air] inlet," said Glenn Kuller, director for advanced programs for Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. "The beauty of that design is that it lets us get nice clean air into the ramjet, yet still have an unobstructed view with a robust sensor package."

Seapower - December 2011
Here's an article on the ASLAM project:

Martin Marietta ASALM





The biggest hurdle is clearly not the propulsion technology but the American strategy (which focuses on stealth and precision), and of course budget (this might be the overriding as it is hard to defend 2 variants of missiles developments that does the fulfills practically the same mission). Notice also that that the tip of the American strategic bomber force against the Soviets in the latter part of the Cold War wasn't supersonic, it was a subsonic but stealthy plane. And practically most new American weapons systems focuses on stealth over other considerations like speed.


The first RAMJET powered flight was in Russia. The first SCRAMJET powered flight was in Russia. Even today, the west is behind the Russians in developing and fielding SCRAMJETS.
Now this is too much bench carrying. You don't skew history just to prove your biases. Again, have you really read the article on ramjets and scramjets I hotlinked above?


Notice how the west is still trying to develop a Brahmos equivalent system.
The West and India and Russia have different strategies.


Not exactly. RAMJETS were bulky. Solid rocket motor was cheap. That's about it. In terms of powered flight and speed, the RAMJET topped the list. Why do you think Meteor is getting so much attention. Powered flight, something solid motor isn't capable of.
Well the ancient liquid fueled ramjets are bulky not the new solid fueled ramjets. Meteor if you noticed is not liquid fueled, it is solid fueled ramjet. This is the trend now in ramjet propulsion. Even the new Russian R-77 is solid fueled ramjet. Bhramos on the other hand is still in the generation of the liquid fueled Talos missile at least in terms of propulsion technology (you got short-changed if you ask me). That's why it's a behemoth.


Current and past SCRAMJET programs are mired in secrecy. It is yet unknown what Russian technology is being used in western programs, however it all started from Russia.
In your secret World of scramjet developments Russia is ahead. But in the real World of compiled developments the US trumps Russia convincingly. But to you you would rather claim that Russia is secretly ahead... Please just keep the claim also secret, well you?


The fact is X-43 directly started right after Russia transferred technology to NASA between 1994-98.

Холод
There's nothing here.


The Americans are finding it difficult to build a Brahmos equivalent while Russia is already in the hypersonic realm and you say the Americans are ahead. :rolleyes:
They have built a new generation of solid fueled ramjet missile way back in the 70's. This kind of missile system however does not fit in their over-all strategy which emphasizes stealth.


OMG, why don't you understand simple facts. IR systems employed during those times were rudimentary. IR systems are vast in their uses and the techniques used are also different. Your TV remote control is an IR system while your TV has an IR detector so you can go around proclaiming you have technology equivalent to the F-35 in the palm of your hands.
OMG! You can't even understand what you wrote earlier. You said the Russians were the first to develop IR tech, That's what you said. And I corrected you by citing earlier American IR techs.


The first IR detector was made in 1835.

The British made the first IRST in 1917, during WW1.
Did I say the Americans invented IR tech? I merely said that the Americans were ahead in integrating IR tech to figthers and missiles than the Russians.
 
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asianobserve

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So, there is no difference between a SAM and an AShM. Interesting hypothesis.

Shoot a mail out to DARPA. Tell them you can solve their LRASM-B issues.

What were talking here is the propulsion system. Not the role of the missiles. What I said is that the Bhramos is in the league of the 1950s American Talos missiles in terms of propulsion. Here are again the pictures:

Talos



Bhramos


You know why they look the same? Because they are the old ramjet set up: Rocket motor at the base to accelerate the missile to sufficient speeds; then the second stage, liquid fueled ramjet, kicks in and drives the missile to its destination.

New ramjet tech is integrated solid fueled rocket and ramjet propulsion. In other words there are no separate solid fueled rocket motor and liquid fueled ramjet in 1 missile. The result in the new integrated solid fueled ramjet is a more compact size offering the same performance as the old separate systems.
 

asianobserve

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"F-35 super stealth plane will get pilots shot down in aerial combat" new leaked report says

Unlike the F-16, the pilot in the F-35 isn't supposed to physically look at his 6 o' clock. The design of F-35 is that the pilot using the F35's HMD is supposed to see 360 degrees around the aircraft and even through the head rest. That's why there's no need for the kind of bubble canopy you have in the F-16.

The problem with the F-35 now is that the developers of the HMD are still fine tuning it to solve the problems mentioned in the article.
 

p2prada

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Again, not true. The Americans had the engine tech for a long time.
I will say it again and again and again and again and again and again. Experimentals count for shit. Show me operational systems.

When we discuss stealth with Americans, it is the same. When we say the Russians have stealthy technology. They ask for operational systems. Where are the operational systems? Without operational systems, claims count for shit.

The LRASM-B design did not follow the design template in the Indo-Russian Bhramos, as said above it is based on the cancelled 1970s ASALM which was a solid fueled ramjet. Most prominent of the design carry-over if the chin inlet (Bhramos has a traditional circular wrap around inlet):
F-16 and Su-27 have different inlets too. But they are both 4th gen fighters. Now your arguments are crossing the line of absurdness.

The biggest hurdle is clearly not the propulsion technology but the American strategy (which focuses on stealth and precision),
Then why did they cancel the project after prototype stage?

The West and India and Russia have different strategies.
The west is trying to emulate Russian strategies. Everybody wants supersonic missiles today, but not everybody can have them.

There are SCRAMJET projects in Europe with Russian involvement.

Well the ancient liquid fueled ramjets are bulky not the new solid fueled ramjets. Meteor if you noticed is not liquid fueled, it is solid fueled ramjet. This is the trend now in ramjet propulsion. Even the new Russian R-77 is solid fueled ramjet. Bhramos on the other hand is still in the generation of the liquid fueled Talos missile at least in terms of propulsion technology (you got short-changed if you ask me). That's why it's a behemoth.
Liquid fueled RAMJET is for a different purpose. You want throttling + speed you want liquid fueled RAMJET. You want only speed then you got for solid fueled. Liquid fueled RAMJET is the superior technology. It is far more complex too. That's why not everybody can be successful at it.

An anti ship missiles is expected to change altitudes very quickly while adjusting speeds, air to air missiles and SAMs don't have to do that. Thus different requirements.

Go google liquid fuel vs solid fuel in RAMJETS and read about the complexity of liquid fueled systems. Liquid fueled systems are larger than their solid fueld counterparts due to the complexity of the design.

There is currently no known development plan for a R-77 RAMJET version. There was only one from the 90s with a PD designation. The new one is a solid motor system in the Aim-120 C7 class.

In your secret World of scramjet developments Russia is ahead. But in the real World of compiled developments the US trumps Russia convincingly. But to you you would rather claim that Russia is secretly ahead... Please just keep the claim also secret, well you?
Russia is already developing operational systems. Which part don't you get? Go back to the first paragraph.

They have built a new generation of solid fueled ramjet missile way back in the 70's. This kind of missile system however does not fit in their over-all strategy which emphasizes stealth.
The Russians have both stealth emphasized missiles as well as supersonic missiles.

Try and explain why the Americans tried developing a LRASM-B and canceled it during prototype building stage. If they had emphasized only stealth then they wouldn't have even bothered about designing LRASM-B.

OMG! You can't even understand what you wrote earlier. You said the Russians were the first to develop IR tech, That's what you said. And I corrected you by citing earlier American IR techs.
OMG. That's because they did. What the Americans are doing now is what the Russians did in the 80s. Like I said, if you are still hung up on comparing your TV to the OLS, then the discussion will go nowhere. You are still trying to prove the Americans put a IRST on their aircraft while I am saying the Russians put IRST on their aircraft and used it in direct combat, unlike the Americans who used IRST only to detect aircraft and then point the aircraft's radar at the aircraft, nothing else. There are huge differences in employment.

Today, the EO-DASS will use the same tactics.

I merely said that the Americans were ahead in integrating IR tech to figthers and missiles than the Russians.
Counts for nothing when you compare the OLS series to 1st generation IRST.

In that sense even the French and British made combat enabled IRST systems a decade before the Americans.
 

p2prada

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What were talking here is the propulsion system. Not the role of the missiles. What I said is that the Bhramos is in the league of the 1950s American Talos missiles in terms of propulsion. Here are again the pictures:

Talos

Bhramos
And what am I supposed to be looking at?

Meteor


SA-6 gainful


Both look alike, both are solid fueled systems, hence both are the same. Hence the Russians achieved similar capability on SA-6 back in the 70s.

That's your nonsensical logic.

New ramjet tech is integrated solid fueled rocket and ramjet propulsion. In other words there are no separate solid fueled rocket motor and liquid fueled ramjet in 1 missile. The result in the new integrated solid fueled ramjet is a more compact size offering the same performance as the old separate systems.
New RAMJET tech, old RAMJET tech. They are all the same. Both require a solid or liquid rocket booster and a solid or liquid fueled RAMJET.

Brahmos has a solid rocket booster and a liquid fueled RAMJET. No, the west has not yet been able to develop something similar.

There is a target missile called Coyote, but that is merely a target missile that is supposed to help the US conduct anti-missiles tests. It is the only functioning RAMJET technology from the US and guess what... it was designed in a JV between Boeing and the Russian company Zvezda-Strela which combines an Americans solid rocket motor with a Russian RAMJET engine. Funny that. Heck it is simply a license production version of the KH-31.

Boeing/Zvezda-Strela MA-31
After the Navy had cancelled the AQM-127 SLAT (Supersonic Low-Altitude Target) program in 1991, it used residual funding to continue low-key studies for alternative supersonic expendable low-altitude targets. In May 1995, McDonnell Douglas received a contract for an FCT (Foreign Comparative Testing) program, which would evaluate a version of the Russian Zveda-Strela Kh-31A missile as a target drone.
Btw, all that you posted about SLAT, it was canceled due to "technical difficulties." They had to settle for the Russian systems after that.

It is simple really. The Americans cancel their SCRAMJET program and buy off Russian technology. The Americans cancel their RAMJET programs and buy off Russian technology again. That's where the Americans are. They are still trying to duplicate the Brahmos and they still aren't able to do it. While the Russians are already developing operational systems for both RAMJET and SCRAMJET. Brahmos is indeed based on tech from the 70s and 80s. But I don't seen any operational RAMJET system that was specifically designed by the US at the same level as a Yakhont or Oniks.

Only the French have ASMP and ASMP-A.
 

asianobserve

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Supersonic combustion ramjet research activities in Russia have been pursued since the late 1950s. These activities began to accelerate in the 1980s and 1990s. In 1991, a decision was made to use SAMs to flight test the hypersonic ramjets for the first time. Kholod (Fig. 34) was developed as a first generation Dedicated hypersonic flying laboratory, derived from the SA-5 (S-200 family) SAM, due to its trajectory being congenial to the hypersonic flight-test requirements. An HRE-type E-57 hydrogen-fueled engine was used, consisting of an axisymmetric three-shock inlet, a coaxial regeneratively cooled combustion chamber, and low-expansion annular nozzle. The E-57 engine, which had a 9-in. diam cowl, is designed to fly at Mach 3.5–6.5 between altitudes of 50,000 and 115,000 ft and remains attached to the booster rocket during the entire flight.26,66,67 A total of seven testbed flights were performed, with four of these being cold-flow engine tests. These tests were not meant to demonstrate the viability of a specific engine applicable to a vehicle, but were intended to demonstrate in flight several technologies that were first developed in ground tests. These technologies included the following features: 1) dual-mode scramjet engine operation over a Mach number range of 3.5–6.5, including transition from subsonic combustion to supersonic combustion (mode transition); 2) fuel-cooled engine structures; and 3) active control of fuel distribution and flow rate as a function of flight condition, as well as measured engine structural temperatures to allow demonstration of the first two technologies. Russia conducted the first flight test (Mach 5.35) in late 1991 and two joint Russian–France launches in late 1992 and early 1995. The second test reportedly achieved supersonic combustion conditions at Mach 5.6. In the third test, the engine failed to operate.68 In late 1994, the NASA initiated a cooperative project to explore the scramjet operating envelope from the ram–scram, dual-mode operation below Mach 6 to the full supersonic combustion mode at Mach 6.5. To accomplish this objective, the higher heating loads required redesign of the combustor, active cooling system, and modifications; meanwhile, the increase to Mach 6.5 required modifications to the SA-5 booster performance.

U.S. tests of the Russian proof-test engine were planned, but never conducted for facility/model safety reasons. NASA engineers analyzed the final 1998 flight-test results. Although reasonable agreement was noted between ground- and flight-test data,32 reportedly some uncertainty existed whether in-flight supersonic Combustion conditions were achieved. Although these flight tests did not fully accomplish their original goals, they were a good first step, which helped build confidence that more ambitious flight tests could be accomplished, and just as important, they provided the first comparison between ground test and flight of dual-mode scramjet combustor data. Although still available, it is unlikely that further flight tests will be conducted with Kholod because more capable second generation hypersonic flying laboratories have become available.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...Vv_5nH&sig=AHIEtbSUho8Vc4lBAkWRu6ZBxcozpwWRMA

The French and Americans merely used the Russian scramjet facility to explore scramjet operating envelops. They did not copy Russian scramjet designs.
 

Armand2REP

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Pentagon Releases Damning Report of F-35 Flaws

Deficiencies Not Resolved, More Arise

Discovery of problems, as indicated by the rate of new deficiency reports and the number
of open deficiencies, is an indicator of overall system immaturity. As of July 9, 2012, the
program had 28 open category 1 (i.e., safety of flight related) deficiency reports related to the
F-35A air vehicle, propulsion system, and associated support systems that were relevant to the
OUE. DOT&E recommended that six of these deficiencies be fully resolved, not just waived,
prior to the OUE start.5 By the end of October, only 2 of the 28 – and only 1 of the 6 –
deficiencies had been fully resolved. Additionally, since July, the program has identified 8 new
category 1 deficiencies, which DOT&E considers relevant to continued flight operations with
early production aircraft at Eglin and elsewhere.

Radar Shortfalls Abound

The radar performance shortfalls ranged from the radar being completely inoperative on two sorties
to failing to display targets on one sortie, inexplicably dropping targets on another sortie, and
taking excessive time to develop a track on near co-speed targets on yet another sortie. In two
instances, a student pilot cited the need to use head-down actions to see the displayed altitude of
airborne targets.

HMD Headache for Pilots

The helmet-mounted display (HMD) presented frequent problems for the pilots. All four student pilots
and one of the five instructor pilots identified a problem with the HMD on at least one of their training flights.
Problems cited in the survey comments included misalignment of the virtual horizon display with the actual
horizon, inoperative or flickering displays, and focal problems – where the pilot would have
either blurry or "double vision" in the display. The pilots also mentioned problems with
stability, jitter, latency, and brightness of the presentation in the helmet display...Pilots also commented on the
usability of the HMD, comparing it to the heads-up display in other aircraft; one citing that the
HMD is too large of a presentation causing the heading display to be overlaid on the canopy
bow [and hence hard to see], and another citing the lack of HMD data when looking off to the
side of the aircraft, such as during traffic pattern operations.

Poor Interface Design Increases Workload

Deficiencies in the design of the pilot's communication and navigation controls causes
increased workload. Cited by one of the instructor pilots during the OUE and by test pilots in
other venues, the touch screen used to control the radios is not readily accessible, requires more
channelized attention, has no tactile feedback, and is error prone – particularly during demanding
phases of flight or under turbulent flight conditions.

Horrible Visibility Issues

All four student pilots commented on the out-of-cockpit visibility of the F-35, an issue
which not only adversely affects training, but safety and survivability as well.8
One rated the degree to which the visibility deficiencies impeded or degraded training effectiveness as
"Moderate;" the other three rated it as "High" or "Very High." The majority of responses cited poor visibility;
the ejection seat headrest and the canopy bow were identified as causal
factors. "High glare shield" and the HMD cable were also cited as sources of the problem. Of
these, only the HMD cable has the potential to be readily redesigned.
In three cases, student pilots explicitly cited visibility-related impacts that could be
directly applicable to the Block 1A syllabus (a largely benign visual search environment);
several other implicitly did so. One student pilot commented, "Difficult to see [other aircraft in
the visual traffic] pattern due to canopy bow." Another stated, "Staying visual with wingman
during tactical formation maneuvering a little tougher than legacy due to reduced rearward
visibility from cockpit."

Three student pilot comments predicted severe impacts of the visibility shortfalls in
combat or in training of a more tactical nature. One said, "A pilot will find it nearly impossible
to check [their six o'clock position] under g." Another commented, "The head rest is too large
and will impede aft visibility and survivability during surface and air engagements," and, "Aft
visibility will get the pilot gunned every time," referring to close-range visual combat


Aft visibility could turn out to be a significant problem for all F-35 pilots in the future,
especially in more tactical phases of combat training than were conducted in the OUE, such as
basic fighter maneuvering (BFM) and air combat maneuvering (ACM), and possibly in tactical
formation as well. It remains to be seen whether or not, in these more advanced aspects of
training, the visibility issues will rise to the level of safety issues, or if, instead, the visibility
limitations are something that pilots adapt to over time and with more experience. Unlike legacy
aircraft such as the F-15, F-16, and F/A-18, enhanced cockpit visibility was not designed into the
F-35. There is no simple relief to limitations of the F-35 cockpit visibility.

Pilots Overheat

F-35 pilots are fitted with and required to wear a jacket on every flight as part of their
flight equipment, which works with the escape system and personal flotation devices. Three of
the four student pilots and one instructor pilot commented on thermal burden created by the
jacket in their survey comments. The discomfort to the pilots due to excessively hot pilot's flight
equipment (PFE) did not significantly hamper the execution of the OUE, but the outdoor
temperatures during the evaluation were nowhere near the maximums experienced during the
summer months at Eglin AFB or at other training sites, such as Marine Corps Air Station
(MCAS) Yuma, Arizona, where the first operational F-35B unit is located. While the thermal
loading of the PFE was tolerable during the OUE time period, it may very well turn out to more
significantly hamper training at hotter times of the year.

http://pogoarchives.org/straus/ote-info-memo-20130215.pdf
 

lookieloo

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Pentagon Releases Damning Report of F-35 Flaws

http://pogoarchives.org/straus/ote-info-memo-20130215.pdf
Actually, it's "Winslow Wheeler Edits and Releases Old Report." The guy is a well known *old-granny* who would have the Infantry using crossbows if he got his way and once made a career complaining about every major weapons program until his big mouth finally got his ass fired from the GAO. So much white noise.
 

p2prada

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The French and Americans merely used the Russian scramjet facility to explore scramjet operating envelops. They did not copy Russian scramjet designs.
I never said they copied Russian designs. Contracts don't allow such things to happen, at least on paper.

Anyway this discussion is over. What needed to be said has been said and done. Lets keep to the F-35 from now on.
 

asianobserve

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I never said they copied Russian designs. Contracts don't allow such things to happen, at least on paper.
You did.

Also, try to google Holod. How Russia's Holod was the first SCRAMJET vehicle to reach hypersonic speeds and how the Americans leeched Russian technology after the fall of the Soviet Union in order to push forward their own programs. Holod was tested with American and French scientists because they wanted to learn.

After that Russia got into a JV with American institutes and transferred technology to them
.

Anyway this discussion is over. What needed to be said has been said and done. Lets keep to the F-35 from now on.
Agree. This is my last post on this topic. Let's get back to F-35.
 

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