F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[StealthFlanker]

I am not challenging the theory, with tremendous computing power now available the signatures can be identified and magnified to detect and counter....much smaller level particles are being identified and sniffed out, are you telling me this is not possible?

No, I am telling you that whatever technology that you can use to sniff out F-35 will do the same to Rafale but become an order of magnitude more effective. Just like the AK-XX vs AK-47 hypothetical example.
And whatever new jammer technology available on the market will always be more effective on an F-35 than a Rafale. All of that is due to simple physics
F-35's Radar > Rafale's radar due to aperture area advantage
F-35's ECM > Rafale's ECM due to RCS advantage
Those are unchangeable things

 

[omaebakabaka]

Is it really though?
for example: due to aperture area advantage, F-35' APG-81 has roughly twice as many T/R modules as Rafale's RBE-2AA, which means it will have a much greater radar detection range due to higher transmitting power and better gain. This is just physics, even if they somehow have the same RCS, F-35 still have detection range advantage

Furthermore, F-35 electricity generation capacity is several times higher than Rafale, which means it has much more power available for both radar and jammer compared to Rafale

Yes, there is no such thing as stealth for OTH radar, but if you know even a little bit about them, you will realize that they can't be used for fire control purpose and they have a blind zone (skip zone) where they can't detect anything within a 2000-3000 km radius around them. There are very good reason why they are early warning only

Oh and btw, OTH are huge stationary target that can't even be camouflage, so in any conflict, they will be the first to be attacked. Even VHF and UHF early warning radar look like little small toys when put next to OTH radar

I agree on the radar, 22 and 35 radars are the best at the moment....well the whole 5th gen is genrally based on super cruise, stealth and bvr paradigm. As I said in my earlier posting, this plane will work fine for US operations as they have overwhelming number strength and various other assets to use it to max advantage. For other airforces, this will come up short qualitatively as the range means they have to positioned closer.....other countries are also working on better radars. From what I read, Russian OTH radars can share info with their other radars as part of IADS. For a plane that entered almost 15 years ago, 5th gen has seen no expected action against even countries with no AF. I am going to wait till I see some evidence, call me pessimist. I have seen most of the info you are posting and counter claims in some forums too.....regardless the claims are too many but proof is extremely minimal.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Russian and chinese claims are accepted as gospel? I see.....
What characteristics are needlessly complex?
Even if stealth is over, as you claim, is it easier to slap better ecm on the f-35 to make up for that or slap stealth characteristics on the Rafale since it is now a bigger target with these better radars?

I am not accepting Russian claims either for instance on their S-300 or S-400 till they see combat action. They tend to claim too many things as not having equivalent (analogue is the word they use) in the world. This plane is single engine for that weight, range and t/w is not that great...for a country like India, in higher altitudes its parameters will be stressed even more. I did not say its a bad plane, we just are not provided with proof even after so many years.

 

[omaebakabaka]

No, I am telling you that whatever technology that you can use to sniff out F-35 will do the same to Rafale but become an order of magnitude more effective. Just like the AK-XX vs AK-47 hypothetical example.
And whatever new jammer technology available on the market will always be more effective on an F-35 than a Rafale. All of that is due to simple physics
F-35's Radar > Rafale's radar due to aperture area advantage
F-35's ECM > Rafale's ECM due to RCS advantage
Those are unchangeable things

Even if both detected (detected does not mean sure kill), range and payload limit the mission profiles and am more leaning towards conclusion this plane designers made mistake by making it software heavy. F-22 is still a better plane with huge potential but they scrapped and kept the F-35 jobs program. US is not going to build these to declared numbers most likely. I like both planes but I lost bit of trust in US MIC on recent programs and they seem to be falling behind with some nonsensical projects like F-35, Zumwalt and so on that are not giving the value based on money invested.

 

[StealthFlanker]

For other airforces, this will come up short qualitatively as the range means they have to positioned closer.....other countries are also working on better radars. From what I read, Russian OTH radars can share info with their other radars as part of IADS. For a plane that entered almost 15 years ago, 5th gen has seen no expected action against even countries with no AF. I am going to wait till I see some evidence, call me pessimist. I have seen most of the info you are posting and counter claims in some forums too.....regardless the claims are too many but proof is extremely minimal.

Firstly, F-35 range on internal fuel alone is nearly the same as Rafale range with 3 extrernal fuel tank, so I can't see how that can be considered short range. And if you want to put external fuel tank on Rafale then it will be extremely sluggish as well.

Secondly, as I have explained many times, better radar that can detect F-35 from long distance will detect a Rafale from even greater distance. There is no sort of radar where the detection range of the 2 aircraft is the same.

Thirdly, OTH radar can share data with other type of radar, but like I said, it can't be used for fire control purpose and the blind radius of 2000-3000 km around the radar is literally greater than the combat radius of most fighter.

Finally, what do you mean F-35 seen no expected action? Israel used it plenty of time already

This plane is single engine for that weight, range and t/w is not that great...for a country like India, in higher altitudes its parameters will be stressed even more. I did not say its a bad plane, we just are not provided with proof even after so many years.

How is F-35 range not great? on internal fuel, it has better range than most fighter with fuel tank, and the T/W not great is only true when it carry high fuel load. But if you load it with similar quantity of fuel as others aircraft then the T/W is not bad at all

Even if both detected (detected does not mean sure kill), range and payload limit the mission profiles

You know F-35 payload is actually greater than Rafale right?

 

[omaebakabaka]

Firstly, F-35 range on internal fuel alone is nearly the same as Rafale range with 3 extrernal fuel tank, so I can't see how that can be considered short range. And if you want to put external fuel tank on Rafale then it will be extremely sluggish as well.

Secondly, as I have explained many times, better radar that can detect F-35 from long distance will detect a Rafale from even greater distance. There is no sort of radar where the detection range of the 2 aircraft is the same.

Thirdly, OTH radar can share data with other type of radar, but like I said, it can't be used for fire control purpose and the blind radius of 2000-3000 km around the radar is literally greater than the combat radius of most fighter.

Finally, what do you mean F-35 seen no expected action? Israel used it plenty of time already




How is F-35 range not great? on internal fuel, it has better range than most fighter with fuel tank, and the T/W not great is only true when it carry high fuel load. But if you load it with similar quantity of fuel as others aircraft then the T/W is not bad at all



You know F-35 payload is actually greater than Rafale right?

Let me say this....Israeli claims are not verifiable. Only one I read that has some confirmation was an Iraqi raid and none in Syria that had any sort of indirect confirmation. That too against countries who do not have any sort of decent control on their airspace.

F-35 t/w is at 50% fuel, so it will be even more sluggish at same armament level as Rafale with tanks. Detection does not mean sure kill, so I will attribute somethings to tactics, strategies and exploring weaknesses on either side. They said the same thing about F-117 but it was shot down because someone exploited some lapse. Same with U-2 until it was shot down, we can't underestimate other powers.

My take on the read about OTH is that it detects and passes info to more longrange and other AD oriented radars that can track but thats my take based on implied things in that article. It was translated, I will try to find that source. Range is lower compared at same armament level based on open specs if I remember correctly.

Reality is that this plane has not been used in the way it was supposed to be used by USAF as intended. Isn't Rafale payload with external tanks is 9+ tons? I expect 5th Gen to be generally better across the board vs 4.5 gen and it is certainly not breezing. Future gains in single engine are not guaranteed that easily whereas twin engines in theory has better potential. It is just border line too heavy for a single engine.

Also isn't stealth advantage kinda minimized when external hard points are used?

 

[StealthFlanker]

F-35 t/w is at 50% fuel, so it will be even more sluggish at same armament level as Rafale with tanks. Detection does not mean sure kill, so I will attribute somethings to tactics, strategies and exploring weaknesses on either side. They said the same thing about F-117 but it was shot down because someone exploited some lapse. Same with U-2 until it was shot down, we can't underestimate other powers.

F-35 can carry 18,250 lbs of fuel internally
Rafale can carry 10,362 lbs of fuel internally.
In other words, F-35 at 50% internal fuel will carry the same amount of fuel as Rafale at 88% fuel or equal to 9125 lbs of fuel.
So with 9,125 lbs of fuel and 4 Meteor missiles, the T/W of F-35 is 1.08 while the T/W of Rafale is 1.04 so enlighten me on how exactly the T/W of F-35 is terrible?.
Besides, stealth doesn't make an aircraft invulnerable, f-117 doesn't have a radar, doesn't have missile warning receiver, doesn't have decoys, doesn't have jammer, doesn't have radar warning receiver, doesn't have long range weapon, doesn't have agility. And yet, it was shot down once despite flying thousands of sorties of most dangerous mission deep in enemy territories.

My take on the read about OTH is that it detects and passes info to more longrange and other AD oriented radars that can track but thats my take based on implied things in that article. It was translated, I will try to find that source. Range is lower compared at same armament level based on open specs if I remember correctly.
Reality is that this plane has not been used in the way it was supposed to be used by USAF as intended.

I don't think you understand the working principles of OTH-B radar. They wave need to hit the ionosphere at a specific angle to be able to bounce back to the earth surface (that how they see past the horizon). That why you have the 2000-3000 km radius around it where it can't detect anything. And given this radius excess the combat radius of most fighter and no SAM fly that far, OTH radar pretty much only useful for early warning

Isn't Rafale payload with external tanks is 9+ tons?

The maximum theoretical weapon payload in weight is not important. What important are the number of weapon pylons and the maximum load of each individual pylon
For example: F-35 can carry 6 JSM -550 km cruise missiles, something that Rafale can't do

 

[omaebakabaka]

F-35 can carry 18,250 lbs of fuel internally
Rafale can carry 10,362 lbs of fuel internally.
In other words, F-35 at 50% internal fuel will carry the same amount of fuel as Rafale at 88% fuel or equal to 9125 lbs of fuel.
So with 9,125 lbs of fuel and 4 Meteor missiles, the T/W of F-35 is 1.08 while the T/W of Rafale is 1.04 so enlighten me on how exactly the T/W of F-35 is terrible?.
Besides, stealth doesn't make an aircraft invulnerable, f-117 doesn't have a radar, doesn't have missile warning receiver, doesn't have decoys, doesn't have jammer, doesn't have radar warning receiver, doesn't have long range weapon, doesn't have agility. And yet, it was shot down once despite flying thousands of sorties of most dangerous mission deep in enemy territories.




I don't think you understand the working principles of OTH-B radar. They wave need to hit the ionosphere at a specific angle to be able to bounce back to the earth surface (that how they see past the horizon). That why you have the 2000-3000 km radius around it where it can't detect anything. And given this radius excess the combat radius of most fighter and no SAM fly that far, OTH radar pretty much only useful for early warning

The maximum theoretical weapon payload in weight is not important. What important are the number of weapon pylons and the maximum load of each individual pylon

Well, most dangerous missions where exactly and what did it do? Did it fly deep inside Russia? Why build planes with one or 2 trick ponies? It was shot down by 1960's radar.....still no record of this 35/22 stealth fighter doing anything that will roll your eyes for an eye watering amount of money spent on it. I know how OTH radars work, Russian's clearly stated (not verifiable) about what they think of 35 and 22's and confidently not worried about these planes. They have a record of breaking american supposed tech wonders. These are conceptualized when they thought Russia would not exist as a threat and those poor decisions are visible now.
5th gen fighter upon spending so much money barely matching 4.5 gen on range is not something to brag about, It is slower than Rafale too on max speeds plus its external payload basically takes out its stealth. This plane tries to do too much with very minimal promise of future upgradeability. It is a good plane but so far short of some clear undeniable proof. This is supposed to replace 16,15 and 18 and that is clearly not happening. This is no SR-71 or B-2 to claim secrets forever on its missions.

 

[Dessert Storm]

@omaebakabaka @StealthFlanker @Manticore you guys are having a great discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Its not just the dog fights, its the range, the pay load and future upgrades....this platform is just needlessly complex trying to do too many things. Read recently somewhere, it can't fly in thunder storms?

it is more fundamental.it was envisaged for use as a replacement for a10,navt f18 and airforce which caused the complexity.they should have gone for a maximum of 2 roles of fighter and bomber alternate and left cas for a dedicated aircraft.

 

[omaebakabaka]

it is more fundamental.it was envisaged for use as a replacement for a10,navt f18 and airforce which caused the complexity.they should have gone for a maximum of 2 roles of fighter and bomber alternate and left cas for a dedicated aircraft.

I like the fact that Americans are risk takers and push the envelope but these days their institutions are corrupted by incompetent top to mid level managers along with DOD procurement and finally congress overseeing these. So most recent projects have been duds than success stories and is clearly reflected in significant accident increases some really high profile ones.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Well, most dangerous missions where exactly and what did it do? Did it fly deep inside Russia?

Why would it fly deep inside Russia when USA and Russia are not at war and the cold war is long time over?

Why build planes with one or 2 trick ponies? It was shot down by 1960's radar.....still no record of this 35/22 stealth fighter doing anything that will roll your eyes for an eye watering amount of money spent on it.

F-117 was a one trick pony, F-35 isn't. And also follow your logic, a submarine are also a one trick pony since if you strip it off the stealth, it has nothing. It has neither the speed nor the air defense of a surface ship. Yet it remains one of the most important force at sea. An ICBM is also one trick pony given that without speed, it got nothing, and yet it remain the scariest thing ever been made.
Furthermore, so what have Kirov, S-400, S-300, Rafale, Su-35 done that would make you roll your eyes for the amount of money spent on them? nothing. The same argument can be applied for roughly 99.9999% of current weapon system because peer to peer war are too rare.
Regarding F-35, it at least destroyed the JY-27 anti stealth radar

I know how OTH radars work, Russian's clearly stated (not verifiable) about what they think of 35 and 22's and confidently not worried about these planes. They have a record of breaking american supposed tech wonders. These are conceptualized when they thought Russia would not exist as a threat and those poor decisions are visible now.

Well if you know how OTH radar work, then you would know that they are useless against stealth fighter, because:
1- Their blind zone is too big that it basically larger then the combat radius of stealth aircraft
2- They don't have the accuracy needed to guide missile.
3- They are huge, stationary target that can't be camouflaged
Basically, OTH are supposed to be use to warn the air defense of IBCM, that its main purpose. It is even more one trick pony than any stealth aircraft and yet they still make it.
And of course, Russia won't be worried about F-35 or F-22, why? because they are not a strategic weapon, Russia and USA are nuclear superpowers, meaning what they never actually have to worry about anyone fly into their air space. The threat of ICBM is way too high for any countries even thinking about that. Nevermind that no fighter have the range to strike deep in Russia territories

5th gen fighter upon spending so much money barely matching 4.5 gen on range is not something to brag about, It is slower than Rafale too on max speeds plus its external payload basically takes out its stealth. This plane tries to do too much with very minimal promise of future upgradeability. It is a good plane but so far short of some clear undeniable proof.

F-35 doesn't just match Rafale range, it match the range will being stealth, and having far more powerful radar and ECM system. Rafale top speed is higher, but in reality, you almost never fly at top speed because weapons and external fuel tank are draggy and they will slow you down. And your aircraft would consume so much fuel that it cant maintain it for more than a few minutes.
And how exactly F-35 has minimal promise of future upgradeability? the radar aperture is twice as big as Rafale. The electric generation ability is like 5 times better than Rafale, the low RCS ensure any jamming system put on F-35 will be significantly more effective than on legacy aircraft. So enlighten me how is that minimal?

This is supposed to replace 16,15 and 18 and that is clearly not happening.

and how would you know that?

 

[omaebakabaka]

Why would it fly deep inside Russia when USA and Russia are not at war and the cold war is long time over?


F-117 was a one trick pony, F-35 isn't. And also follow your logic, a submarine are also a one trick pony since if you strip it off the stealth, it has nothing. It has neither the speed nor the air defense of a surface ship. Yet it remains one of the most important force at sea. An ICBM is also one trick pony given that without speed, it got nothing, and yet it remain the scariest thing ever been made.
Furthermore, so what have Kirov, S-400, S-300, Rafale, Su-35 done that would make you roll your eyes for the amount of money spent on them? nothing. The same argument can be applied for roughly 99.9999% of current weapon system because peer to peer war are too rare.
Regarding F-35, it at least destroyed the JY-27 anti stealth radar

Well if you know how OTH radar work, then you would know that they are useless against stealth fighter, because:
1- Their blind zone is too big that it basically larger then the combat radius of stealth aircraft
2- They don't have the accuracy needed to guide missile.
3- They are huge, stationary target that can't be camouflaged
Basically, OTH are supposed to be use to warn the air defense of IBCM, that its main purpose. It is even more one trick pony than any stealth aircraft and yet they still make it.
And of course, Russia won't be worried about F-35 or F-22, why? because they are not a strategic weapon, Russia and USA are nuclear superpowers, meaning what they never actually have to worry about anyone fly into their air space. The threat of ICBM is way too high for any countries even thinking about that. Nevermind that no fighter have the range to strike deep in Russia territories



F-35 doesn't just match Rafale range, it match the range will being stealth, and having far more powerful radar and ECM system. Rafale top speed is higher, but in reality, you almost never fly at top speed because weapons and external fuel tank are draggy and they will slow you down. And your aircraft would consume so much fuel that it cant maintain it for more than a few minutes.
And how exactly F-35 has minimal promise of future upgradeability? the radar aperture is twice as big as Rafale. The electric generation ability is like 5 times better than Rafale, the low RCS ensure any jamming system put on F-35 will be significantly more effective than on legacy aircraft. So enlighten me how is that minimal?

and how would you know that?

These are your words regarding deep inside enemy territory
"And yet, it was shot down once despite flying thousands of sorties of most dangerous mission deep in enemy territories."

Your summary basically is F-35 and F-22 are not a threat to Russia and if Russia sells something to other countries then they are not a threat to that country?

So now max speed's don't matter and max radar ranges don't matter either....I already clarified my position on s-300/400, no combat record so claims are taken with grain of salt. I will disregard your different tangents on submarines, icbms and so on as they are a different argument and their purpose is different. Rafale and Su-35 do not claim anything special that is fundamentally different and most of those features are proven in combat. I am still waiting for stealth based 5th gen to make a significant kill.....for now its all claims. Isreal never confirmed its F-35 that took out the radar. These days they are not even flying in Syrian airspace after s-200 crippling of f-15 and IL-20 sabotage. They are north lebanon or under USAF shadow in Syria but mostly stand off.....Why would they expose any signature to Russians in Syria....I don't take these claims seriously. F-35 single engine at that weight is not very promising in terms of upgradeability. The naval ones are even more miserable......so basically F-35 and F-22 are for bombing some shit hole weak ass countries? For that F-16 and F-15 would also do the job.....actually they are conceptualized for Russia thinking it would not survive but nevertheless its not possible anymore. As I said, lets see the record of F-35 displaying its claims regarding stealth or any ECM superiority.....

Regarding OTH, they detect but its too far to act on it and pretty much useless but if threat is anticipated during war times then all that info is shared with other more focussed radars and eventually firecontrol radars of AD if threat moves towards AD sectors, at least that was what was implied in that article. You don't have to explain the oth and lack of fire control...its fairly obvious.

If you eliminate Russia from US 5th gen fighter purpose then its kinda targeted towards weak countries.....there are really Russia and to a distant 2nd China now that threatens US capabilities.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Why would it fly deep inside Russia when USA and Russia are not at war and the cold war is long time over?


F-117 was a one trick pony, F-35 isn't. And also follow your logic, a submarine are also a one trick pony since if you strip it off the stealth, it has nothing. It has neither the speed nor the air defense of a surface ship. Yet it remains one of the most important force at sea. An ICBM is also one trick pony given that without speed, it got nothing, and yet it remain the scariest thing ever been made.
Furthermore, so what have Kirov, S-400, S-300, Rafale, Su-35 done that would make you roll your eyes for the amount of money spent on them? nothing. The same argument can be applied for roughly 99.9999% of current weapon system because peer to peer war are too rare.
Regarding F-35, it at least destroyed the JY-27 anti stealth radar

Well if you know how OTH radar work, then you would know that they are useless against stealth fighter, because:
1- Their blind zone is too big that it basically larger then the combat radius of stealth aircraft
2- They don't have the accuracy needed to guide missile.
3- They are huge, stationary target that can't be camouflaged
Basically, OTH are supposed to be use to warn the air defense of IBCM, that its main purpose. It is even more one trick pony than any stealth aircraft and yet they still make it.
And of course, Russia won't be worried about F-35 or F-22, why? because they are not a strategic weapon, Russia and USA are nuclear superpowers, meaning what they never actually have to worry about anyone fly into their air space. The threat of ICBM is way too high for any countries even thinking about that. Nevermind that no fighter have the range to strike deep in Russia territories



F-35 doesn't just match Rafale range, it match the range will being stealth, and having far more powerful radar and ECM system. Rafale top speed is higher, but in reality, you almost never fly at top speed because weapons and external fuel tank are draggy and they will slow you down. And your aircraft would consume so much fuel that it cant maintain it for more than a few minutes.
And how exactly F-35 has minimal promise of future upgradeability? the radar aperture is twice as big as Rafale. The electric generation ability is like 5 times better than Rafale, the low RCS ensure any jamming system put on F-35 will be significantly more effective than on legacy aircraft. So enlighten me how is that minimal?

and how would you know that?

It is not as they are planning to extend life of all 16s and 15s and even going for 15ex.....anyway I will close this from my side by saying that I like 35 and 22 from looks, concepts like super cruise, best aesa radars and some degree of sensor fusion. But whole 5th gen is not going to be very useful and will be replaced by 6th Gen before these claims are undeniably proved against 1st or 2nd rated peer countries. Bombing libya/iraq/syria does not count. I am yet to see bvr at claimed distances and that is hard to come by....if we are lucky we might finally see some Rafale acion against 5th gen and 4.5 gen planes against a major air force

 

[Wisemarko]

In BVR combat against a true 5th gen aircraft, the 4th generation fighters have serious disadvantages. If that was not the case the slimy Chinese and Russians would not be focusing their resources on J-20 and SU-57 respectively.

The RCS of 1 m2 (EuroFighter, F-16) doesn’t really matter to modern airborne radars. Because at that level of stealth, targets can be identified at maximum launch range of BVR air-2-air missiles. For example, EF can be detected by SU-35 IRBIS-E radar at over 150 miles.

The RCS claimed for Rafale with SPECTRA active cancellation mode is 0.06 m2 which puts it at detection range of around 65 miles with PESA of SU-35. Without SPECTRA, the RCS of Rafale is very close to EF.

* The detection range is for a maximum-power, narrow-angle search. In conventional search mode, the detection range is down by 50%. That’s the mode for most A2A radar while searching for targets. For each decimal increase In RCS, detection range goes down by ~40%. RCS is for clean configuration and loaded weapon pylons make is worse.

Now, the F-35 RCS is compared to a “golf ball” and the F-22’s to “a marble”; these objects have RCS of 0.0013 m2 and 0.0002 m2, respectively.

So in order to launch A2A first without risking passive engagement, stealth must be in 0.001 M2 range.

For all practical purposes, Rafale stealth is excellent if capability of Spectra is to be believed, but not so much without it. Active cancellation cannot work all the time and has limits of use.

What all this means is that if Rafale using SPECTRA went against F-35 (assuming both have similar radar) F-35 will “see” Rafale at 65 miles but Rafale will not be able to “see” F-35 till it came close to 35 miles. Using that distance advantage, F-35 will engage Rafale with AMRAAMS and try to disappear without ever getting detected. When F-35 weapon bay opens, Rafale may see a faint blimp on its radar followed by MAWS going off in few moments. Both fighters may not turn on radars at all to avoid passive sensors picking up on emissions and then the game will get more interesting with optronics or other assets like AWACS using their radar to vector. That’s too much to type for now.

S-400 and Stealth:
The SAM response is even more important. Lower frequency UHF/VHF scanning radars can detect stealth at longer range than X, C or S band radars but can not provide targeting solutions due to extremely long wavelength. Something StealthFlanker just explained. Even L-band has poor targeting ability against extreme stealth at long range (although better detection ability than C/S band).

Meanwhile, all the limitations of terrain and horizon limit SAM radars. Radar sites can get detected at 40-50% longer range than their own detection range by passive sensors on F-35 providing enough time to circumvent SAM batteries. The AGM-88 class ARM can then easily engage these batteries from standoff distance (~100km).

The new swarming technologies such as Switchblade 600/300 are even more dangerous to all LRSAMS because they force SAMs to engage these low cost drones and thus revealing their locations only to be attacked by long range PGMs.

Thus F-35 (minus its protracted development cycle, teething problems, cost overruns) is a remarkable advancement over all 4/4.5 gen fighters and unmatched in BVR combat.

 

[omaebakabaka]

In BVR combat against a true 5th gen aircraft, the 4th generation fighters have serious disadvantages. If that was not the case Chinese and Russians would not be focusing their resources on J-20 and SU-57 respectively.

The RCS of 1 m2 (EuroFighter, F-16) doesn’t really matter to modern airborne radars. Because at that level of stealth, targets can be identified at maximum launch range of BVR air-2-air missiles. For example, EF can be detected by SU-35 IRBIS-E radar at over 150 miles.
For each decimal increase In RCS, detection range goes down by ~40%. RCS is for clean configuration and loaded weapon pylons make is worse.

The RCS claimed for Rafale with SPECTRA active cancellation mode is 0.06 m2 which puts it at detection range of around 65 miles with PESA of SU-35. Without SPECTRA, the RCS of Rafale is very close to EF.

The detection range is for a maximum-power, narrow-angle search. In conventional search mode, the detection range is down by 50%. That’s the mode for most A2A radar while searching for targets.

Now, the F-35 RCS is compared to a “golf ball” and the F-22’s to “a marble”; these objects have RCS of 0.0013 m2 and 0.0002 m2, respectively.

So in order to launch A2A first without risking passive engagement, stealth must be in 0.001 M2 range.

For all practical purposes, Rafale stealth is excellent if capability of Spectra is to be believed, but not so much without it. Active cancellation cannot work all the time and has limits of use.

What all this means is that if say Rafale went against F-35 (assuming both have similar radar) F-35 will “see” Rafale at 60 miles but Rafale will not be able to “see” F-35 till it came close to 35 miles. Using that distance advantage, F-35 can engage Rafale and disappear without ever getting detected.

S-400 and Stealth:
The SAM response is even more important. Lower frequency UHF/VHF scanning radars can detect stealth at longer range than X, C or S band radars but can not provide targeting solutions due to extremely long wavelength. Something StealthFlanker just explained. Even L-band has poor targeting ability against extreme stealth at long range (although better detection ability than C/S band).

Meanwhile, all the limitations of terrain and horizon limit SAM radars. Radar sites can get detected at 40-50% longer range than their own detection range by passive sensors on F-35 providing enough time to circumvent SAM batteries. The AGM-88 class ARM can then easily engage these batteries from standoff distance (~100km).

The new swarming technologies such as Switchblade 600/300 are even more dangerous to all LRSAMS because they force SAMs to engage these low cost drones and thus revealing their locations only to be attacked by long range PGMs.

Thus F-35 (minus its protracted development cycle, teething problems, cost overruns) is a remarkable advancement over all 4/4.5 gen fighters and unmatched in BVR combat.

Theory and Claims, need evidence. It is short of it and F-22 is around for over a decade now. I will bet my money that this threat is neutralized in more than one way to a certain extent. Russian's came up with what we know stealth today back in the day. These planes will be effective against 99% of worlds air forces but these were designed for one enemy in mind when they were conceived assuming they wont have all around coverage on their border at the time. In any case, same claims were made around boomers and so on.....U2 also until it was shot down. All fields evolve and capable countries like Russia and USA have and continue to explore anti dotes, there are billions of dollars at work for them.

 

[Wisemarko]

Theory and Claims, need evidence. It is short of it and F-22 is around for over a decade now. I will bet my money that this threat is neutralized in more than one way to a certain extent. Russian's came up with what we know stealth today back in the day. These planes will be effective against 99% of worlds air forces but these were designed for one enemy in mind when they were conceived assuming they wont have all around coverage on their border at the time. In any case, same claims were made around boomers and so on.....U2 also until it was shot down. All fields evolve and capable countries like Russia and USA have and continue to explore anti dotes, there are billions of dollars at work for them.

Indeed that’s why Chinese and Russians are developing their own stealth fighters since they are so easy to neutralize. Why did India pay so much for Rafale SPECTRA suite when stealth is pointless?
No one is going to give you any evidence of this - even if they use this technology to their advantage 1000 times. This is called knowledge: not claims.
Even briefing on F-35 to foreign clients requires approval from US government- stealth is very closely guarded

 

[omaebakabaka]

Indeed that’s why Chinese and Russians are developing their own stealth fighters since they are so easy to neutralize. Why did India pay so much for Rafale SPECTRA suite when stealth is pointless?
No one is going to give you any evidence of this - even if they use this technology to their advantage 1000 times. This is called knowledge: not claims.
Even briefing on F-35 to foreign clients requires approval from US government- stealth is very closely guarded

Russian's are developing but it is not based totally on F-35 and actually closer to F-22 concept if any with some refinements and enhancements.....they are not necessarily compromising a lot or making it too complex like F-35. They are using stealth as part of whole equation to make a better plane not a fuck up like 35. Ya, a supposedly front line aircraft exported to number of countries is somehow guarded....so far it hasn't changed anything around the world as far as the threats are concerned for its supposed enemies. I am not rooting for its failure by the way, I am just waiting for some proof other than a mythical aura around these....

 

[Manticore]

Russian's are developing but it is not based totally on F-35 and actually closer to F-22 concept if any with some refinements and enhancements.....they are not necessarily compromising a lot or making it too complex like F-35. They are using stealth as part of whole equation to make a better plane not a fuck up like 35. Ya, a supposedly front line aircraft exported to number of countries is somehow guarded....so far it hasn't changed anything around the world as far as the threats are concerned for its supposed enemies. I am not rooting for its failure by the way, I am just waiting for some proof other than a mythical aura around these....

You'll have to wait for the Russian plasma stealth and chinese quantum radar then to get your mythical aura. The F-35 'fuck up' will just have to soldier in without your approval.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

it is more fundamental.it was envisaged for use as a replacement for a10,navt f18 and airforce which caused the complexity.they should have gone for a maximum of 2 roles of fighter and bomber alternate and left cas for a dedicated aircraft.

There i also the fact that many private defence companies of usa are starting to become ofbesque in that they are becoming very costly as their factories are located in multiple states to produce a single product due to politics as representatives want their constituents to get jobs.however in the se private companies case they aare better in all other ways than ofb like presentation,legacy success.but sometimes i get the feeling that private companies in the us are becoming a little bit like ofb.So even though much better we must be careful in choosing our products from the private firms.

In the case of F35,they also pushed a lot of in paper and prototype tech like in the LCS Disaster which slowed down procurement and development and increased cost.Like the stealth tech and ALIS System for example.This caused an issue like the USS Ford where they were dealing with the aircraft issues as they were procuring it instead of fully testing out new tech beforehand .The airforce all other branches however were very supportive of it they have done the level best to accomodate it as is their tradition to a point where i wish IA had that attitude to many systems which would have inducted some of our systems from being shelved.

The only positive spin is that most of the tech if they work properly will combine to present some revolutionary changes and pave the way in experience in future devolpment of 6th gen aircraft.

However if it is not properly worked out the other characteristics of the aircraft are mediocre.

The us military is however committed as they dont have unlimited budget adn i dont think they can spend like this again soon to replace everything again and atleast they will have planes in hand.