F-16 Viper

Flying Dagger

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That's not how a fighter jet cost is deduced.

The total cost for India included Meteor package Scalp Hammer etc etc and two maintenance /service centre that can provide for 80+ jets. There was also a clause to maintain 75%+ availability and providing repair service for next 5 years. Training for 10 pilots and 50% offset clause etc etc.

So we will need to know detailed F-16 deal with cost allocation for all these things. But overall I think you should have gone for the second hand jets and USA got a lot of those.

This comparison of IAF Rafale versus Philippine F-16 purchases are very rough estimates purely on program costs, the details of which are totally known.

The Swiss on the other hand compared the F-35 against Rafale based on concrete figures. And unless you want to claim that the F-16 is more expensive than the F-35, should be a good reference on real F-16 cost vis-a-vis Rafale.
 

Super Flanker

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Lockheed_Martin_F-16D_Fighting_Falcon,_Turkey_-_Air_Force_JP7156596.jpg

@rodeo I believe you will be able to answer this question of mine. I am aware that Turkey is making F-16s under licence in Turky itself. These F-16s are made under licence by TAI(Turkish Aerospace Industries)

So my question with regards to this is how Turkish are these TAI F-16s? Basically what is the amount of content in these F-16s that is of Turkish origin and could you name some of them?
 

Wisemarko

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View attachment 129855
@rodeo I believe you will be able to answer this question of mine. I am aware that Turkey is making F-16s under licence in Turky itself. These F-16s are made under licence by TAI(Turkish Aerospace Industries)

So my question with regards to this is how Turkish are these TAI F-16s? Basically what is the amount of content in these F-16s that is of Turkish origin and could you name some of them?
Turkey is producing F-16 since 1980s through Peace Onyx I, II, III and IV. Over the years Turkish industry has increased the participation in local supply, assembly and upgrade. TAI had contract to build wings, center fuselages, and aft fuselages for USAF F-16s, L-93 RLG by AESELAN, F129 IPE engines were built under license by TEI - in 1990s. Eventually, Turkish aerospace was able to upgrade block 40 using some local and international parts. Plan was to use this experience and expertise to participate in F-35 project. Now with end of that opportunity, F-16 experience may not see its full potential.
 

Super Flanker

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Turkey is producing F-16 since 1980s through Peace Onyx I, II, III and IV. Over the years Turkish industry has increased the participation in local supply, assembly and upgrade.
Oh so the Turks are building most of their F-16s in Turkey itself. Also Turkish Aerospace produced 46 F-16s for the Egyptian Air Force between 1993 and 1995 under the agreement signed between the Governments of Turkey, USA and the Arab Republic of Egypt.
Lockheed_Martin_F-16D_Fighting_Falcon,_Turkey_-_Air_Force_JP7156596.jpg

TAI had contract to build wings, center fuselages, and aft fuselages for USAF F-16s, L-93 RLG by AESELAN, F129 IPE engines were built under license by TEI - in 1990s. Eventually, Turkish aerospace was able to upgrade block 40 using some local and international parts.
Oh TAI had contract to build some parts of F-16s Such as Aft Fuselage, Wings even for the US? I never knew this. All this while I used to think that it was only Lockheed Martin who used to Build the parts and components for their F-16s. Looks like they have a supply chain in other countries as well. Anyways now we have started to Manufacture F-16 wings in India itself Under a join venture between TATA and Lockheed Martin.
07-1030.jpg

Plan was to use this experience and expertise to participate in F-35 project. Now with end of that opportunity, F-16 experience may not see its full potential.
Unfortunately I don't think so that now Turkey will have any use of that Experience to participate in F-35. Because they have bought S-400 so I don't think so that US will permit them to do so now. Bad idea by turkey to do that. They should have been smarter than that.
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Thanks for the answer though. Appreciated.
 

Super Flanker

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Turkey is producing F-16 since 1980s through Peace Onyx I, II, III and IV. Over the years Turkish industry has increased the participation in local supply, assembly and upgrade. TAI had contract to build wings, center fuselages, and aft fuselages for USAF F-16s, L-93 RLG by AESELAN, F129 IPE engines were built under license by TEI - in 1990s. Eventually, Turkish aerospace was able to upgrade block 40 using some local and international parts. Plan was to use this experience and expertise to participate in F-35 project. Now with end of that opportunity, F-16 experience may not see its full potential.
So I guess they don't have the Technology to build an F-16 Completely from scratch(sorry I am stupid to think that US will do Complete TOT for F-16s with Turkey)

I guess the ones which TAI Manufactures is around 60+ percent Indigenous and rest of the Parts are imported. Do the Turks pay a license fee to the US for each F-16 that they Manufacture locally?
 

Super Flanker

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India is definitely not buying F16, we have MWF in that space, further F16 is not better than Rafale in any way.
But for supply chain, we are happy to be part of it.
I always had a question with regards to this supply chain. I am aware that now india is Officially part of the F-16 supply chain because India's TATA is now Manufacturing F-16 wings in India itself under a joint Venture with Lockheed Martin. So my question was what profit does TATA make or get by being part of it?

Also what Material is used in making this wings in India? Are the materials sourced from India or from foreign?

(@Wisemarko mate I guess you will be answer these questions of mine )
 

Wisemarko

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I always had a question with regards to this supply chain. I am aware that now india is Officially part of the F-16 supply chain because India's TATA is now Manufacturing F-16 wings in India itself under a joint Venture with Lockheed Martin. So my question was what profit does TATA make or get by being part of it?

Also what Material is used in making this wings in India? Are the materials sourced from India or from foreign?

(@Wisemarko mate I guess you will be answer these questions of mine )
Hi, sorry I do not have access to Tata's finance to know how much they "make" from wing assembly.

The F-16 was designed without much use of titanium or other high strength, more expensive metals in order to reduce costs. Thus, most of the structure is aluminum alloy, either 2024 or 7475. The wing itself is mostly metal and composed of spars with four main rib sections. The root rib has attachment points for all of the 10 internal spars and the trailing edge spar.

2024 and 7475 is widely available however initially this would be imported from overseas. The biggest achievement is technology infusion. India's first metal-to-metal bonding facility is established for this. Many small suppliers will become part of global supply chain since all future wings for f-16 will be made here.
 

Super Flanker

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Hi, sorry I do not have access to Tata's finance to know how much they "make" from wing assembly.

The F-16 was designed without much use of titanium or other high strength, more expensive metals in order to reduce costs. Thus, most of the structure is aluminum alloy, either 2024 or 7475. The wing itself is mostly metal and composed of spars with four main rib sections. The root rib has attachment points for all of the 10 internal spars and the trailing edge spar.

2024 and 7475 is widely available however initially this would be imported from overseas. The biggest achievement is technology infusion. India's first metal-to-metal bonding facility is established for this. Many small suppliers will become part of global supply chain since all future wings for f-16 will be made here.
That's good. Our TATA is doing quite well in regards to such things. Anyways it's reported That TATA will be able to churn out around 50 pair of Wings annually and if F-16 wins the MMRCA tender than The Aircrafts will be produced in India itself at the F-16 Facility of TATA and Lockheed Martin and the facility will be able to roll out around 50 Aircrafts per year. That sounds pretty amazing. I agree that F-16 is a very good Fighter but I don't think so that we will buy it in the near future or anytime soon.
 

Covfefe

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what is a training flight? it that an unskilled pilot, pilot new on the jet or pilot learning tactics?
I don't think such details are out yet but that's definitely not an unskilled pilot getting his hands on the top-of-the-line jet their Air Force has. Could be a tactics training or conversion from some other platform to this one
 

KurtisBrian

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I don't think such details are out yet but that's definitely not an unskilled pilot getting his hands on the top-of-the-line jet their Air Force has. Could be a tactics training or conversion from some other platform to this one
that should mean it was almost certainly not pilot error.
 

Covfefe

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that should mean it was almost certainly not pilot error.
These things are pretty hard to conclusively determine without details at hand(and unfair to the machine and the pilot who might have lost his life/limbs)
 

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