Europe Future demography

[The Messiah]

:taunt1:

I am outside your house! come out 8)

 

[Galaxy]

I am outside your house! come out 8)

I don't know what to say when you have different opinion on 1 particular thing. Although I still believe it's not fact and just conspiracy theory/Myth but difficult to change someone's mindset. 8)

 

[The Messiah]

I don't know what to say when you have different opinion on 1 particular thing. Although I still believe it's not fact and just conspiracy theory/Myth but difficult to change someone's mindset. 8)

Just agree that west is involved in the mess known as middle east.

Now come down ...you have wasted many hours of mine on 1 ridiculous point

 

[Galaxy]

Just agree that west is involved in the mess known as middle east.

Now come down ...you have wasted many hours of mine on 1 ridiculous point

I can never agree on that but it's okay. Sometime one should agree to disagree.

 

[The Messiah]

I can never agree on that but it's okay. Sometime one should agree to disagree.

Lets start by you 8)

 

[ejazr]

Id ul Fitr meat from the sacrifice of Eid al-Adha is mostly given away to others. One-third is eaten by immediate family and relatives, one-third is given away to friends, and one-third is donated to the poor.

From the meat he may eat himself and feed his family and also distribute meat amongst the poor Muslims.

Can he give it to non Muslims?

I know this is not the topic of this thread but just wanted to clarify it.

The only item of charity that is prescribed to be given to Muslims to fulfill your religious duty is Zakat which is obligatory or "faraz".

All other acts of charity (called sadaqah) can be given to non-muslims. So gifting meat to non-muslim neighbors, or relatives or poor is completely acceptable. There are numerous examples from the time of the Prophet himself of giving charity to non-muslims. If you have non-muslim relatives who are poor, they hold higher preference to say rich Muslim neighbors that you would give as a gift.

I know numerous people who give eid-ul adha meat in charity to non-Muslims in Hyderabad itself where many poor come from neighboring villages and even other states during Eid.

 

[Bangalorean]

Great discussion!!!

The West is at fault, certainly - but to use generic terms like "the West propped up terror groups like Osama and co." is a little disingenuous. There are hundreds of terror groups worldwide, from Pakistan/Afghanistan to the Middle East to Africa (Al-Shabab, Boko Haram, etc. etc.). Western involvement can be found in one case. What about all the others?

 

[communismforindia]

taliban is an american invention.. its a proof,

 

[Bangalorean]

^^ How is Taliban an "American invention"? Explain the history of the Taliban, how it came up, how it sprouted?

People don't know the difference between Osama, Al-Qaeda, Haqqani, Taliban, TTP - just some vague notions of bearded men talking to white CIA guys, and everything becomes a 'creation of the Americans'. Conspiracy theories which I'm more used to hearing on PDF.

Taliban was completely indigenous to Afghanistan. It was propped up by the ISI and funded, recognized and armed by Pakistan. The USA had left the region long before the first Talib came into existence.

 

[Illusive]

Instead of making a few egos happy, does this demography change favor Indian interests in Europe or affects negatively?

My opinion, keeping Europe stable is important for India, a weak Europe means larger Chinese influence and policies favoring them. Already we have seen some nations asking financial help from China.

The bolded part should be more important for us than anything else.

 

[Ray]

Following a public debate, a 2006 EU policy paper identified five key policy responses to manage demographic change:

1. supporting demographic renewal through better conditions for families and improved reconciliation of working and family life
2. boosting employment – more jobs and longer working lives of better quality
3. raising productivity and economic performance through investing in education and research
4. receiving and integrating migrants into Europe
5. ensuring sustainable public finances to guarantee adequate pensions, health care and long-term care.

Demographic Change in the EU - EU

 

[Ray]

Future demographic scenario

In March 2008, Eurostat published population projections for 2008–2060 (EUROPOP2008) for EU Member States, Norway and Switzerland (Giannakouris, 2008). EUROPOP2008 is based on a mandate from the Economic and Financial Affairs Council (ECOFIN) which uses it as the basis for calculating projections of public expenditure related to population ageing in the EU. Its projections offer an insight into the possible future population development in individual Member States, taking into account socioeconomic and cultural differences among them. The main finding of the projection is that 'without the assumed net migration inflow, Europe's population would start shrinking from 2012 onwards' (European Commission, 2009, p. 70).

In the short to mid-term, labour immigration can – as part of Lisbon Strategy's comprehensive package of measures aimed at increasing the competitiveness of the EU economy – positively contribute to tackling the effects of this demographic evolution, and will prove crucial to satisfying current and future labour market needs and thus ensure economic sustainability and growth.

Around 56 million persons entering the country and finding jobs would be needed to compensate for the projected reduction in the population of working age for the EU27. ("¦) All in all, net migration well above the European levels of recent decades would be necessary to compensate for the decline in the working age population. (p. 99)

Demographic change has been on the political agenda of the European Union for some time now.

This survey report focuses on recent data on the effects of the demographic change on work. The material presented in the report shows that the shrinking and ageing of the workforce are at the core of the problems to be faced. Therefore, creating suitable conditions for an increase of labour supply and for useful utilisation of the available labour power seem to be of the utmost importance. This may include new technologies for older workers, different measures to integrate immigrants, and family-friendly policies as well as strategies to improve lifelong learning.

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/surveyreports/EU0902019D/EU0902019D.pdf

 

[Ray]

A very easy to understand the issues involved in a video format.

This video says it all from the European point of view.

Rather alarming from the European standpoint!

 

[ejazr]

Ray Sir, what is alarming that this video is based on false trends but many people still don't know about it.

Check out this video from the BBC that refutes the video.


No wonder right wing Europeans are wetting themselves by worrying about things that will never happen by trusting videos on youtube.

This link does a more thorough refutation based on govt. statistics for each country which is also linked to source.
http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/

 

[ejazr]

Will Pew Muslim birth rate study finally silence the “Eurabia” claim? | FaithWorld

One of the most wrong-headed arguments in the debate about Muslims in Europe is the shrill "Eurabia" claim that high birth rates and immigration will make Muslims the majority on the continent within a few decades. Based on sleight-of-hand statistics, this scaremongering (as The Economist called it back in 2006) paints a picture of a triumphant Islam dominating a Europe that has lost its Christian roots and is blind to its looming cultural demise.

The Egyptian-born British writer Bat Ye'or popularised the term with her 2005 book "Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis" and this argument has become the background music to much exaggerated talk about Muslims in Europe. Some examples from recent weeks can be found here, here and here.

A good example is the video "Muslim Demographics," an anonymous diatribe on YouTube that has racked up 12,680,220 views since being posted in March 2009. Among its many dramatic but unsupported claims are that France would become an "Islamic republic" by 2048 since the average French woman had 1.8 children while French Muslim women had 8.1 children — a wildly exaggerated number that it made no serious effort to document. It also predicted that Germany would turn into a "Muslim state" by 2050 and that "in only 15 years" the Dutch population would be half Muslim. "Some studies show that, at Islam's current rate of growth, in five to seven years, it will be the dominant religion of the world," the video declares as it urges viewers to "share the Gospel message in a changing world."

The BBC produced its own video entitled "Welcome to Eurabia?" that gave a point-by-point rebuttal of the video's claims. Watching "Muslim Demographics" and "Welcome to Eurabia?" back-to-back provides a useful lesson in the dark art of twisting statistics. The image at left, shows a fictional flag of "Eurabia" created by Oren Neu Dag.

Articles defending the "Eurabia" claim have often been so shrill that they essentially discredited themselves as serious arguments. But it could be difficult to find a solid statistics that gave an overall view of what was actually happening. The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life has stepped up with an impressive study entitled "The Future of the Global Muslim Population" (here's the press release, report and graphics here). As we summarised it in our report Muslim birth rate falls, slower population growth:

Falling birth rates will slow the world's Muslim population growth over the next two decades, reducing it on average from 2.2 percent a year in 1990-2010 to 1.5 percent a year from now until 2030, a new study says.

Muslims will number 2.2 billion by 2030 compared to 1.6 billion in 2010, making up 26.4 percent of the world population compared to 23.4 percent now, according to estimates by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life"¦

"The declining growth rate is due primarily to falling fertility rates in many Muslim-majority countries," it said, noting the birth rate is falling as more Muslim women are educated, living standards rise and rural people move to cities.

The proven demographic fact that birth rates have been falling among Muslim women, both in Muslim majority countries and western countries where Muslims have migrated, is not new. Nor are articles debunking the idea that Muslims will become the majority in Europe (see here and here and here). But my own experience in discussing this with non-Muslims in Europe and the United States says this message does not seem to be getting through. The fact that Muslim birth rates, while still higher than those for non-Muslims, are actually falling seems to surprise people who do not follow these issues closely.

There are many legitimate questions concerning Muslim minorities in western countries. Should Muslim women be allowed to cover their faces in public? Do state schools have to provide halal meals? Does sharia have any place in the western legal system? Should Muslims be allowed to pray in the streets? What does the decline of Christianity in Europe mean for the continent? These issues have to be debated openly –"The clash of ideas is the sound of freedom," as Yahya Hendi, the Muslim chaplain at the Catholic university Georgetown in Washington put it at a conference at UNESCO in Paris two years ago. But while citizens have a right to have their own opinions, they can't just make up their own "facts" and expect to be taken seriously. Twisting statistics only distorts the debate and risks leading to unfounded conclusions.

This study raises further questions that the Pew Forum cannot yet answer. The report's preface asks "Is Islam the world's fastest-growing religion? If Islam is growing in percentage terms, does that mean some of the world's other major faiths are shrinking? Is secularism becoming more prevalent, or less?" It doesn't yet have the data, but it plans to issue a similar report on the prospects for Christianity worldwide next year, followed up by others analysing the trends for "other major world faiths, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Judaism. We will also look at the size and growth of the population that is not affiliated with any religious tradition."

What do you think? Is this report a surprise? Which interesting trends could the other reports bring to light?

UPDATE: In a telephone conference with journalists later on Thursday, Pew Forum researchers commented on the study. I asked what the results said about the "Eurabia" claim.

Senior researcher Brian Grim said: "Across the next 20 years, we're only seeing a 2 percent rise in the total share of Europe that is Muslim. We're projecting that the growth rate is slowing. So this rise is very very modest. It's a relatively small share of the overall population in Europe"¦ There's no real scenario that we've looked at that this 'Eurabia' scenario would come to be."

Alan Cooperman, associate director for research, said the percentages of Muslims in some European populations would rise from 3 to 5 percent to between 6 and 10 percent by 2030. "Those are substantial increases but they are very far from the 'Eurabia' scenario of runaway growth," he said. "We do not see either wordlwide or in Europe runaway growth. The growth rates are slowing."

 

[Ray]

Ray Sir, what is alarming that this video is based on false trends but many people still don't know about it.

Check out this video from the BBC that refutes the video.


No wonder right wing Europeans are wetting themselves by worrying about things that will never happen by trusting videos on youtube.

This link does a more thorough refutation based on govt. statistics for each country which is also linked to source.
Muslim Demographics « Tiny Frog

Though it is interesting, the fertility rate speaks of the countries (that means all).

Like that everything seems to be generalised and not religious specific.

 

[Ray]

Ray Sir, what is alarming that this video is based on false trends but many people still don't know about it.

Check out this video from the BBC that refutes the video.


No wonder right wing Europeans are wetting themselves by worrying about things that will never happen by trusting videos on youtube.

This link does a more thorough refutation based on govt. statistics for each country which is also linked to source.
Muslim Demographics � Tiny Frog

Though it is interesting, the fertility rate speaks of the countries (that means all).

Like that everything seems to be generalised and not religion specific.

Also the answers appear a wee bit vague!

Nonetheless, interesting!

 

[parijataka]

Followed the thread till page 16 then gave up - too many diversions from main topic to reply...8)!

Europeans are worried about immigrants from Africa, South Asia and Middle East changing their culture and racial profile. Fair enough! But what about the continents they have settled and populated. North America (US and Canada), Australia, New Zealand were conquered by Europeans from tribal people. In South America also the dominant group is mainly of European descent.

 

[Ray]

That is a good point indeed!

 

[KS]

Followed the thread till page 16 then gave up - too many diversions from main topic to reply...8)!

Europeans are worried about immigrants from Africa, South Asia and Middle East changing their culture and racial profile. Fair enough! But what about the continents they have settled and populated. North America (US and Canada), Australia, New Zealand were conquered by Europeans from tribal people. In South America also the dominant group is mainly of European descent.

Compared to North America, South is far more 'indigenous' in its population profile.