DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,114
Likes
11,912
Country flag
Unfortunately, they do not only look stupid in fact they are.

Upgrade of Arjun Happened much before the T-90 ToT deal. (the recent one ) Please have some respect for DRDO. Arihant is based on Russian Akula class nothing to do with the scorpion.
Look at another side, S. Korea has done the same scorpion-type deal around the 2000s and they keep working on them. ultimately end product is now being offered for Navy75I tender.

Half of the responders for the Army future tank also developed their product in the same way.
Without ToT, how do you expect to manufacture the spares inhouse?
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
20,783
Likes
81,320
Country flag
South Korea is basically offering us a submarine for P75I, which is based on and improved upon German HDW 209.
Incidentally we too had purchased those as Shishumar class.

So, probably we have go back as far as exchanging our notes that contains the definition of ToT. Probably that's where our difference of opinion lies.
@vishnugupt I’ll skip to where I was going to in my part of the conversation.

immediately after that shishumar class was built, we had a series of coalition govts in power which ended in 2014.

point I am arriving at is that, stable national govts being stable policies. even with a politically stable govt at centre now, just look at the challenges being thrown for projects like Train 18 & desi arty.

one of the things I keep insisting always is that don’t view things in isolation.

gatam gataha.
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
718
Likes
1,964
Country flag
Without ToT, how do you expect to manufacture the spares inhouse?
Same as we still Importing for Su-30mki
My post was in a larger context. Of course, ToT is good but we are not utilizing it effectively due to the Armed forces unpredictable behaviour. Every time we catch up with technology they just float another tender to increase the technological gap. We have to start at some point on existing platforms to become self-sufficient
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
718
Likes
1,964
Country flag
@vishnugupt I’ll skip to where I was going to in my part of the conversation.

immediately after that shishumar class was built, we had a series of coalition govts in power which ended in 2014.

point I am arriving at is that, stable national govts being stable policies. even with a politically stable govt at centre now, just look at the challenges being thrown for projects like Train 18 & desi arty.

one of the things I keep insisting always is that don’t view things in isolation.

gatam gataha.
You are right about the political aspect but as Modi govt. struggle with train 18 and Desi Artillery what they did?? they ordered 44 more train 18 instead of floating global tender to kill it. that's how things grow and the nation develops.

Even if you see in a larger context still have to come to conclusion and by all conclusion, Armed forces share more blame than anyone else.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,114
Likes
11,912
Country flag
Same as we still Importing for Su-30mki
My post was in a larger context. Of course, ToT is good but we are not utilizing it effectively due to the Armed forces unpredictable behaviour. Every time we catch up with technology they just float another tender to increase the technological gap. We have to start at some point on existing platforms to become self-sufficient
Indigenous content of MKI is touching 65%. It would not have been possible without ToT. We are using Israeli, European, Indian weapons with MKI and even using it as a test bed. It would not have been possible without ToT.

Now coming to SoKo subs, the Jang Bogo class is under construction from 1993 and till date 11 of those were completed. 11 subs in 3 decades and that too of same class and capability. Do you want IN to follow the same path?
Same is the case with T-90. It is not something top of the line. But it is much more practical in use for IA. So whether we like it or not, we have to stick with it as of now. ToT for T-90 provided us the chance to upgrade it indigenously.
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
718
Likes
1,964
Country flag
Indigenous content of MKI is touching 65%. It would not have been possible without ToT. We are using Israeli, European, Indian weapons with MKI and even using it as a test bed. It would not have been possible without ToT.

Now coming to SoKo subs, the Jang Bogo class is under construction from 1993 and till date 11 of those were completed. 11 subs in 3 decades and that too of same class and capability. Do you want IN to follow the same path?
Same is the case with T-90. It is not something top of the line. But it is much more practical in use for IA. So whether we like it or not, we have to stick with it as of now. ToT for T-90 provided us the chance to upgrade it indigenously.
Bhai, again I'm saying, I am not against ToT. All I'm saying we are not utilizing it effectively. merely using TOT for repairing will not take us anywhere.

That armed forces are not allowing us to use ToT effectively. floating global tender every time will leave Indian industry stagnant.
 

Lonewolf

Psychopathic Neighbour
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
4,517
Likes
13,750
Country flag
Bhai, again I'm saying, I am not against ToT. All I'm saying we are not utilizing it effectively. merely using TOT for repairing will not take us anywhere.

That armed forces are not allowing us to use ToT effectively. floating global tender every time will leave Indian industry stagnant.
We actually need parallel development not successive deveolpment of products in which our capability are non existent
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
20,783
Likes
81,320
Country flag
Even if you see in a larger context still have to come to conclusion and by all conclusion, Armed forces share more blame than anyone else.
and i am saying, keep an open mind. you may have arrived at some conclusions based on some amount of information today. test your own theory again and again, as and when you acquire new information in the future.
 

ladder

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
6,829
Likes
9,861
Country flag
@vishnugupt I’ll skip to where I was going to in my part of the conversation.

immediately after that shishumar class was built, we had a series of coalition govts in power which ended in 2014.

point I am arriving at is that, stable national govts being stable policies. even with a politically stable govt at centre now, just look at the challenges being thrown for projects like Train 18 & desi arty.

one of the things I keep insisting always is that don’t view things in isolation.

gatam gataha.
The thing you are telling is a cause but not the root cause.

ToT of Submarine be it Shishumar or Scorpene was with MDL.
What acess to that ToT is with DRDO or NDB?
MDL is crippled in sense that it is mostly a production agency with limited R&D.

Contrast it to the ToT for radars that DRDO got ( start from Poland) and see where we are today.
Check DRDO's absorption of technology and work share with IAI and came up with Akash NG in record time.

So, ToT shouldn't be limited to production agencies as they cannot fill in the blanks ( non transferable technologies) to create complete product.

Bofor's ToT to OFB is another example. The ToT was incomplete. OFB came out with Dhanush only after GoI gave clearance to OFB to start in house design agency. ( Nobody had forgotten about ToT papers as reported in mainstream press😁)

Think about it if Bofor's ToT was available with DRDO from late 1980s itself?
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,114
Likes
11,912
Country flag
Bhai, again I'm saying, I am not against ToT. All I'm saying we are not utilizing it effectively. merely using TOT for repairing will not take us anywhere.

That armed forces are not allowing us to use ToT effectively. floating global tender every time will leave Indian industry stagnant.
Whenever a global tender is being floated, it is done keeping in mind a upgraded platform then the last one. Even if Scorpene comes with 75I, it would be more upgraded from day 1 then the existing Kalvari class.
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
718
Likes
1,964
Country flag
We actually need parallel development not successive deveolpment of products in which our capability are non existent
It will be difficult due to the technological gap. Nowhere you can see somebody developing 6th generation plan on the basis of 3rd generation technology. Of course one can attempt but it will lead you to uncertainty because technology development takes time and unpredictable.

We have to start at some point by adding technology to existing capability and the Armed forces have to swallow this bitter pill rather than demanding next step technology.
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
20,783
Likes
81,320
Country flag
The thing you are telling is a cause but not the root cause.

ToT of Submarine be it Shishumar or Scorpene was with MDL.
What acess to that ToT is with DRDO or NDB?
MDL is crippled in sense that it is mostly a production agency with limited R&D.

Contrast it to the ToT for radars that DRDO got ( start from Poland) and see where we are today.
Check DRDO's absorption of technology and work share with IAI and came up with Akash NG in record time.

So, ToT shouldn't be limited to production agencies as they cannot fill in the blanks ( non transferable technologies) to create complete product.

Bofor's ToT to OFB is another example. The ToT was incomplete. OFB came out with Dhanush only after GoI gave clearance to OFB to start in house design agency. ( Nobody had forgotten about ToT papers as reported in mainstream press😁)

Think about it if Bofor's ToT was available with DRDO from late 1980s itself?
Inter departmental communication within ministry is handled by some Joint Secretary, that too only if the minister & his/her principle secretary wants. if half the time minister is worried if he is gonna retain his ministry the next monday or not, question of strategic planning does not arise.
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
718
Likes
1,964
Country flag
Whenever a global tender is being floated, it is done keeping in mind a upgraded platform then the last one. Even if Scorpene comes with 75I, it would be more upgraded from day 1 then the existing Kalvari class.
They are based on the Armed force's torturous requirements.
Here is an example. IAF pitched for an urgent requirement of extra Platus trainers around 2017-18 despite of HTT-40 was around the corner. In fact, IAF criticized HTT-40 in all possible manner. Now Platus got banned and since then IAF is sleeping. So what does it mean?? If IAF was not sabotaging HTT-40 project.
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
718
Likes
1,964
Country flag
ToT without IP transfer is like meeting without eating, which essentially is cheating 😜
You are absolutely right. in fact, ToT is a long-running Scam in India. We were told that Kaveri has got ToT in Rafale deal for which we had even paid price but today this ToT nowhere in sight.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,114
Likes
11,912
Country flag
They are based on the Armed force's torturous requirements.
Here is an example. IAF pitched for an urgent requirement of extra Platus trainers around 2017-18 despite of HTT-40 was around the corner. In fact, IAF criticized HTT-40 in all possible manner. Now Platus got banned and since then IAF is sleeping. So what does it mean?? If IAF was not sabotaging HTT-40 project.
The RFP documents, with an additional clause for 38 more trainer aircraft, were handed over to HAL by Air Marshal Sandeep Singh, DCAS, and VL Kantha Rao, DG (Acquisition), Ministry of Defence.

The certification will be given against the Programme Compliance and Quality Review (PCQR). The production will take place at HAL’s two manufacturing units at Bengaluru and Nashik. The RFP has come within six years from the first flight of HAL, which is the shortest time-line in the aircraft industry. The trainer will have more than 60 per cent indigenous content and is supported by agencies such as CEMILAC, RDAQA and ASTE.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...s-warrior-and-ruav-drones/article33752827.ece

Certification is still pending for sub assemblies.
 

omaebakabaka

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
2,434
Likes
5,846
You are right about the political aspect but as Modi govt. struggle with train 18 and Desi Artillery what they did?? they ordered 44 more train 18 instead of floating global tender to kill it. that's how things grow and the nation develops.

Even if you see in a larger context still have to come to conclusion and by all conclusion, Armed forces share more blame than anyone else.
Can't really blame services either, their projections are based on enemy's capabilities and India has very active enemies perhaps the only country of this size that is constantly being attacked and does nothing against big or small enemies.....what we need is for every 7 divisions there needs to be 2 or 3 indigenous ones so that innovation can be sustained.

I would focus on spares, ammo to be close to 100% indigenous and looks like DRDO is doing that for the most part with focus now vs in the past. Platforms can come later as they take time but that is where experimental divisions should be sported by law when there is an option for domestic for instance arjun and t-90, atags and athos and so on.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,114
Likes
11,912
Country flag
Well, kehne ko to it must have been secretely inducted already, and also secretly might have a range of 8000 km and not the officially stated 5000 km. But what's the point of all this secrecy? No other country with nuclear weapons does this. The real use of nuclear tipped missiles is as a deterrent. And deterrence would work only when your adversary knows that you actually have them. US would have been far less hesitant in invading North Korea if Kim Jong Un had been saying his ICBM is "being deployed" for the last four years. What purpose does hiding their existence serve? And if you intend to keep it a secret then why say to news channels that you are going to induct it this year only to not induct it?
Our Nuclear Policy is not about using it as primary deterrent unlike NoKo or even Pakistan. So for us, the veil of secrecy works well.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,114
Likes
11,912
Country flag
You are talking about fuel economy and railway carriages..First of all look at the ugly shit type of design of the carrier...No space managment no ergonomics...What do you think what speed it can move ..what would be the turning radius...Are boss give it tata or Mahindra they will design a far better vehicle....yaha design ke naam pe chutiyapa chal raha hai..

View attachment 90666
IMG_20210611_114440_150.jpg


Yeah no space management. It doesn't matter where you would put the massive generator.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top