DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Indx TechStyle]

India dependency on Russians will increase going further not decrease , it's already increasing if one look at what we are buying and are going to buy in future lol.

An elaboration with stats will work better than a rant/rhetoric for discussion.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

This One of the Most Myopic And ill-informed Post i have been through
Its Time To expose What DRDO Does in reality

R&D is not Pandora's Box Which one cannot open
If you have Money To invest R&D.It can be gathered And Developed By Providing Infrastructure or Employing To End Brains of the World

This is Most easy Part for Multi billion $ Firm Like TATA
TATA can Buy Embraer And Can own its R&D Same Way Reliance did in pipavav defence
DRDO cannot Since It Budget Is
Just US$2.1 billion

GOI Maintained Monopoly In Strategic Affairs Never opened A Tender Competition Where DRDO has to compete With MNC giants like TATA ,Birla,Mahindra etc

And We are exposed Free market Economy in 1992 Remember

GOI never Asked for It
give One instance Where Govt asked Private Firms to build Agni missile For that matter They excluded Them Due to Nehruvian Socialism model Till Late 2000's

Its now Just after 2014 Private Firm took part in ASAT test And brahmos more



PS: DRDO 3 rd class Scientist Do Reverse engineering Of Russians And IAI Products Don't Tell me
they Did Real R&D

Name any Major DRDO Project Were They not Reverse engineered Russian & Israeli's products
I challenge you on that


Don't Defend Incompetency of Lethargic Bureaucracy of DRDO I can Put out Low End Startup in Europe Who can create better Drones than DRDO

Even Educational Institution Like MIT And Cal tech Design And develop better Stuff than DRDO
in less funds With College Undergraduates

Sir, I have been lurking on this forum since a long time. I have seen many of your posts and I appreciate your insight. But I'll be honest with you, you have ZERO understanding of R&D. Frankly, I did not expect to see such B.S. from you.

DRDO has problems, no doubt. DRDO has its fair share of lethargic scientists. Unmotivated people who only want to achieve Government job and the stability that it provides. But I will not agree with you if you say that the entire DRDO is like that and their only achievement has been reverse-engineering Israeli and Russian equipment. This just sounds like something Prasun Sengupta would insinuate. Its plain false.

Those of us in Engineering and R&D know where we stand as a country, where private companies and where DRDO stands. People like you think that TATA can simply buy Embraer and reach the level of Dassault or Boeing? The pedigree that @porky_kicker mentioned is not something you buy with money. Its an entire ecosystem that includes universities, subsystem and lower tier suppliers, etc. It takes decades to create university core research focus groups, that focus on solving particular problems. This requires that you fund your universities. And that is led by industry. You are talking about Chinese R&D. Chinese R&D exists because of financial support and tie-ups with the universities that Chinese industries have. More than that, once such an ecosystem has existed for decades, it has ironed out its workflow inefficiencies, built in redundancies and self-correcting mechanisms. The Private Enterprises have themselves generated vast body of IPR and proprietary products, whose design they continuously improve in minor iterations which accumulate to give generations of products. Then there is government investment. Do you know how many supercomputers of what capability we have running in India atm? Compare that with those in developed nations and China. This problem exists due to the simple fact that we are a developing nation. In time, government investment in R&D will grow many-fold. India does not have any of this right now, yet in your imaginary lala land, TATA will magically create an Indian Boeing-type R&D juggernaut simply by buying Embraer? When TATA is struggling with R&D regarding Aerothermodynamics and Boeing closes its 737 factory and starts selling spaceplanes, don't come crying to DRDO.

I have studied through one of the Central Universities in India, I know the level they have. I know the level state universities and private universities have. The majority of Research they produce is absolute junk. Students are neither well-informed nor self-motivated enough to pursue development of a skill-set. Without good researchers, whether its Ambani or TATA or DRDO, the result will be the same. Only very few Universities in India produce good researchers, and most of these people end up working in either DRDO/ISRO or a foreign company that has good R&D.

You keep talking shit about government not allowing these private companies to build Agni missile. When the reality is that these baniyas have not done much research on the products they do sell. How many futuristic cars has Indian automobile industry produced? Can they match up with likes of Toyota or VW? Hell no. So what BS are you talking about when you say Nehruvian socialism? Did the government tell them not to do R&D? These Indian private conglomerates have ZERO interest in proper R&D. They were crying infront of government when GoI tried introducing Bharat Stage VI citing technological barriers. TATA acquired Jaguar Land Rover and then REVERSE ENGINEERED their chassis and now using the same $hit in its new offerings like TATA Harrier. Mahindra did the same with Ssangyoung motors. Recently, these Indian automakers have started doing some bits of their own R&D. Still a far cry from global competitors. Only affordability keeps them in the game. Why not try to make an actual supercar in India using Indian designers? Because it is ain't that simple. And don't bring up that hypercar called Pininfarina Batista that Mahindra is claiming it made. The designers of the "Car" are in Europe, a company that they bought and the batteries and motors that power that hypercar are from another company that owns the IPR of that technology. None of it was ever made in India. Neither will it. Because creating core R&D in India is something Indian private sector conglomerates will not be able to do due to their baniya mentality.

You are trying to offload the problems of the OFB and DPSU on DRDO, as Indian people tend to usually do. And not just that, you are pinning the collective faults of Indian education system, Indian economy, Indian private companies and Indian citizens onto DRDO.

Tell me, would you $hit on ISRO the same way you $hit on DRDO? ISRO and DRDO are practically on the same level. ISRO is only slightly ahead, reason being ISRO is not as bloated in management as DRDO is because ISRO has a very narrow scope, not like DRDO where you have to create a special type of cabbage to grow in Ladakh while also creating chemical explosives and propellants, avionics, radars of all sorts, missiles of all sorts, fighter jets and tanks, engines of literally all sorts that there are, etc. If you take a hard look at ISRO, ISRO is as far behind companies like Space X and organizations like NASA as DRDO is behind Boeing. So please have some damn perspective. Its bureaucrats like you with your peanut understanding of R&D who create hurdles in Indian R&D sector, although scientists are even worse when given administrative jobs.

Facts 90 % Of the Top Indian Brains goes Silicon valley Since 80's Because DRDO doesn't have Enough incentive Tap that talent

And that is DRDO's fault? HOW? Its the fault of Indian Industry that failed to set up enough high-paying R&D jobs. Indian PSU and Railways have failed even harder at this. OFB is the biggest culprit of them all. But DRDO? The only reason some of the brain manages to stay back in India is because their are jobs like DRDO and ISRO.

But What we Do is filled Our Strategic Institutions from the Products of affirmative action or in other word reservation.

Reservation is DRDO's fault? HOW? Barking up the wrong tree here.


If you still don't agree to me, that is fine. I was not trying to convince you. You should just stick to your sarkari job where you don't have to worry about R&D. Your kind can't understand it. Let the professionals handle it. R&D is not something you just one day get up and start doing. Try doing an actual PhD in an engineering field, you will realize just how hard it is when you are going at a problem almost alone. Do you know what Timoshenko medal is? Do you know gives it? ASME does. Ever heard that name? Ofc you haven't. Do you know how many Indians got it? And what all they had to do to achieve it? You have barely any understanding of R&D, and your comment is EVIDENCE OF HOW BABUS OF INDIA HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF R&D.

 

[Swiftfarts]

India's military self sufficiency has been on top of priorities for a while and at least won't be compromised for relations with a declining power with just 50% of India's economy.
We will still be dependent on them for another decade as we still struggle with certain techs.

Russian decline is a fantasy. You are seeing a russian resurgence.

An elaboration with stats will work better than a rant/rhetoric for discussion.

What's there to elaborate ?
70%+ of indian militart hardware is russian. What's you are going to replace it with without compromising number ? Western stuff ? it's costly that's why you only bought 36 Rafale and probably buy no more 120 more at max and order more mig's and Sukhoi's. So domestic stuff than , only if it's indian not screw giri and match indian Military requirements. If you are going to shove substandard product down military throat , sorry Military is not inducting period.

 

[SUPERPOWER]

DRDO scientists should be sent to North Korea for the training..

 

[Swiftfarts]

Sir, I have been lurking on this forum since a long time. I have seen many of your posts and I appreciate your insight. But I'll be honest with you, you have ZERO understanding of R&D. Frankly, I did not expect to see such B.S. from you.

DRDO has problems, no doubt. DRDO has its fair share of lethargic scientists. Unmotivated people who only want to achieve Government job and the stability that it provides. But I will not agree with you if you say that the entire DRDO is like that and their only achievement has been reverse-engineering Israeli and Russian equipment. This just sounds like something Prasun Sengupta would insinuate. Its plain false.

Those of us in Engineering and R&D know where we stand as a country, where private companies and where DRDO stands. People like you think that TATA can simply buy Embraer and reach the level of Dassault or Boeing? The pedigree that @porky_kicker mentioned is not something you buy with money. Its an entire ecosystem that includes universities, subsystem and lower tier suppliers, etc. It takes decades to create university core research focus groups, that focus on solving particular problems. This requires that you fund your universities. And that is led by industry. You are talking about Chinese R&D. Chinese R&D exists because of financial support and tie-ups with the universities that Chinese industries have. More than that, once such an ecosystem has existed for decades, it has ironed out its workflow inefficiencies, built in redundancies and self-correcting mechanisms. The Private Enterprises have themselves generated vast body of IPR and proprietary products, whose design they continuously improve in minor iterations which accumulate to give generations of products. Then there is government investment. Do you know how many supercomputers of what capability we have running in India atm? Compare that with those in developed nations and China. This problem exists due to the simple fact that we are a developing nation. In time, government investment in R&D will grow many-fold. India does not have any of this right now, yet in your imaginary lala land, TATA will magically create an Indian Boeing-type R&D juggernaut simply by buying Embraer? When TATA is struggling with R&D regarding Aerothermodynamics and Boeing closes its 737 factory and starts selling spaceplanes, don't come crying to DRDO.

I have studied through one of the Central Universities in India, I know the level they have. I know the level state universities and private universities have. The majority of Research they produce is absolute junk. Students are neither well-informed nor self-motivated enough to pursue development of a skill-set. Without good researchers, whether its Ambani or TATA or DRDO, the result will be the same. Only very few Universities in India produce good researchers, and most of these people end up working in either DRDO/ISRO or a foreign company that has good R&D.

You keep talking shit about government not allowing these private companies to build Agni missile. When the reality is that these baniyas have not done much research on the products they do sell. How many futuristic cars has Indian automobile industry produced? Can they match up with likes of Toyota or VW? Hell no. So what BS are you talking about when you say Nehruvian socialism? Did the government tell them not to do R&D? These Indian private conglomerates have ZERO interest in proper R&D. They were crying infront of government when GoI tried introducing Bharat Stage VI citing technological barriers. TATA acquired Jaguar Land Rover and then REVERSE ENGINEERED their chassis and now using the same $hit in its new offerings like TATA Harrier. Mahindra did the same with Ssangyoung motors. Recently, these Indian automakers have started doing some bits of their own R&D. Still a far cry from global competitors. Only affordability keeps them in the game. Why not try to make an actual supercar in India using Indian designers? Because it is ain't that simple. And don't bring up that hypercar called Pininfarina Batista that Mahindra is claiming it made. The designers of the "Car" are in Europe, a company that they bought and the batteries and motors that power that hypercar are from another company that owns the IPR of that technology. None of it was ever made in India. Neither will it. Because creating core R&D in India is something Indian private sector conglomerates will not be able to do due to their baniya mentality.

You are trying to offload the problems of the OFB and DPSU on DRDO, as Indian people tend to usually do. And not just that, you are pinning the collective faults of Indian education system, Indian economy, Indian private companies and Indian citizens onto DRDO.

Tell me, would you $hit on ISRO the same way you $hit on DRDO? ISRO and DRDO are practically on the same level. ISRO is only slightly ahead, reason being ISRO is not as bloated in management as DRDO is because ISRO has a very narrow scope, not like DRDO where you have to create a special type of cabbage to grow in Ladakh while also creating chemical explosives and propellants, avionics, radars of all sorts, missiles of all sorts, fighter jets and tanks, engines of literally all sorts that there are, etc. If you take a hard look at ISRO, ISRO is as far behind companies like Space X and organizations like NASA as DRDO is behind Boeing. So please have some damn perspective. Its bureaucrats like you with your peanut understanding of R&D who create hurdles in Indian R&D sector, although scientists are even worse when given administrative jobs.


And that is DRDO's fault? HOW? Its the fault of Indian Industry that failed to set up enough high-paying R&D jobs. Indian PSU and Railways have failed even harder at this. OFB is the biggest culprit of them all. But DRDO? The only reason some of the brain manages to stay back in India is because their are jobs like DRDO and ISRO.


Reservation is DRDO's fault? HOW? Barking up the wrong tree here.


If you still don't agree to me, that is fine. I was not trying to convince you. You should just stick to your sarkari job where you don't have to worry about R&D. Your kind can't understand it. Let the professionals handle it. R&D is not something you just one day get up and start doing. Try doing an actual PhD in an engineering field, you will realize just how hard it is when you are going at a problem almost alone. Do you know what Timoshenko medal is? Do you know gives it? ASME does. Ever heard that name? Ofc you haven't. Do you know how many Indians got it? And what all they had to do to achieve it? You have barely any understanding of R&D, and your comment is EVIDENCE OF HOW BABUS OF INDIA HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF R&D.

Excellent ,at least someone calling these Charlton's out for what they truly are. these gonchus and there supporters with vested interests have taken whole country and military for a ride for long.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Sir, I have been lurking on this forum since a long time. I have seen many of your posts and I appreciate your insight. But I'll be honest with you, you have ZERO understanding of R&D. Frankly, I did not expect to see such B.S. from you.

DRDO has problems, no doubt. DRDO has its fair share of lethargic scientists. Unmotivated people who only want to achieve Government job and the stability that it provides. But I will not agree with you if you say that the entire DRDO is like that and their only achievement has been reverse-engineering Israeli and Russian equipment. This just sounds like something Prasun Sengupta would insinuate. Its plain false.

Those of us in Engineering and R&D know where we stand as a country, where private companies and where DRDO stands. People like you think that TATA can simply buy Embraer and reach the level of Dassault or Boeing? The pedigree that @porky_kicker mentioned is not something you buy with money. Its an entire ecosystem that includes universities, subsystem and lower tier suppliers, etc. It takes decades to create university core research focus groups, that focus on solving particular problems. This requires that you fund your universities. And that is led by industry. You are talking about Chinese R&D. Chinese R&D exists because of financial support and tie-ups with the universities that Chinese industries have. More than that, once such an ecosystem has existed for decades, it has ironed out its workflow inefficiencies, built in redundancies and self-correcting mechanisms. The Private Enterprises have themselves generated vast body of IPR and proprietary products, whose design they continuously improve in minor iterations which accumulate to give generations of products. Then there is government investment. Do you know how many supercomputers of what capability we have running in India atm? Compare that with those in developed nations and China. This problem exists due to the simple fact that we are a developing nation. In time, government investment in R&D will grow many-fold. India does not have any of this right now, yet in your imaginary lala land, TATA will magically create an Indian Boeing-type R&D juggernaut simply by buying Embraer? When TATA is struggling with R&D regarding Aerothermodynamics and Boeing closes its 737 factory and starts selling spaceplanes, don't come crying to DRDO.

I have studied through one of the Central Universities in India, I know the level they have. I know the level state universities and private universities have. The majority of Research they produce is absolute junk. Students are neither well-informed nor self-motivated enough to pursue development of a skill-set. Without good researchers, whether its Ambani or TATA or DRDO, the result will be the same. Only very few Universities in India produce good researchers, and most of these people end up working in either DRDO/ISRO or a foreign company that has good R&D.

You keep talking shit about government not allowing these private companies to build Agni missile. When the reality is that these baniyas have not done much research on the products they do sell. How many futuristic cars has Indian automobile industry produced? Can they match up with likes of Toyota or VW? Hell no. So what BS are you talking about when you say Nehruvian socialism? Did the government tell them not to do R&D? These Indian private conglomerates have ZERO interest in proper R&D. They were crying infront of government when GoI tried introducing Bharat Stage VI citing technological barriers. TATA acquired Jaguar Land Rover and then REVERSE ENGINEERED their chassis and now using the same $hit in its new offerings like TATA Harrier. Mahindra did the same with Ssangyoung motors. Recently, these Indian automakers have started doing some bits of their own R&D. Still a far cry from global competitors. Only affordability keeps them in the game. Why not try to make an actual supercar in India using Indian designers? Because it is ain't that simple. And don't bring up that hypercar called Pininfarina Batista that Mahindra is claiming it made. The designers of the "Car" are in Europe, a company that they bought and the batteries and motors that power that hypercar are from another company that owns the IPR of that technology. None of it was ever made in India. Neither will it. Because creating core R&D in India is something Indian private sector conglomerates will not be able to do due to their baniya mentality.

You are trying to offload the problems of the OFB and DPSU on DRDO, as Indian people tend to usually do. And not just that, you are pinning the collective faults of Indian education system, Indian economy, Indian private companies and Indian citizens onto DRDO.

Tell me, would you $hit on ISRO the same way you $hit on DRDO? ISRO and DRDO are practically on the same level. ISRO is only slightly ahead, reason being ISRO is not as bloated in management as DRDO is because ISRO has a very narrow scope, not like DRDO where you have to create a special type of cabbage to grow in Ladakh while also creating chemical explosives and propellants, avionics, radars of all sorts, missiles of all sorts, fighter jets and tanks, engines of literally all sorts that there are, etc. If you take a hard look at ISRO, ISRO is as far behind companies like Space X and organizations like NASA as DRDO is behind Boeing. So please have some damn perspective. Its bureaucrats like you with your peanut understanding of R&D who create hurdles in Indian R&D sector, although scientists are even worse when given administrative jobs.


And that is DRDO's fault? HOW? Its the fault of Indian Industry that failed to set up enough high-paying R&D jobs. Indian PSU and Railways have failed even harder at this. OFB is the biggest culprit of them all. But DRDO? The only reason some of the brain manages to stay back in India is because their are jobs like DRDO and ISRO.


Reservation is DRDO's fault? HOW? Barking up the wrong tree here.


If you still don't agree to me, that is fine. I was not trying to convince you. You should just stick to your sarkari job where you don't have to worry about R&D. Your kind can't understand it. Let the professionals handle it. R&D is not something you just one day get up and start doing. Try doing an actual PhD in an engineering field, you will realize just how hard it is when you are going at a problem almost alone. Do you know what Timoshenko medal is? Do you know gives it? ASME does. Ever heard that name? Ofc you haven't. Do you know how many Indians got it? And what all they had to do to achieve it? You have barely any understanding of R&D, and your comment is EVIDENCE OF HOW BABUS OF INDIA HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF R&D.

Private sector along with government institutions of scientific research and excellence should be consulted by HRD Ministry in designing course curriculum for STEM fields in public universities. It's only then that the private sector would be interested in funding universities.

 

[Swiftfarts]

@Okabe Rintarou do you think building competing school or design bureaus for tanks, missiles planes etc like russians, Chinese or western countries do will help ?.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Russian decline is a fantasy. You are seeing a russian resurgence.

As told before, stats and facts speak louder than rants. I don't see Russia taking over hegemonic thrones of regions anymore. It's fighting for influence in its hometown for sure.

Beyond strategic techs, Russia isn't there in innovation now.

What's there to elaborate ?
70%+ of indian militart hardware is russian. What's you are going to replace it with without compromising number ? Western stuff ? it's costly that's why you only bought 36 Rafale and probably buy no more 120 more at max and order more mig's and Sukhoi's. So domestic stuff than , only if it's indian not screw giri and match indian Military requirements. If you are going to shove substandard product down military throat , sorry Military is not inducting period.

It doesn't again refute that dependence on Russia is going to decline and in fact has declined. The share of foreign equipment in capex outcome yearly and even Russian share is that, isn't even no. 1 in foreign vendors. Given that Russian stuff utilised right now is largely a stock of older systems, spares of equipments which will be outpaced won't make it up anymore. They will be replaced by an Indian or foriegn system where probability of having a Russian system is thinner these days.
Further,

So domestic stuff than , only if it's indian not screw giri

"Screw-giri" or Indian stuff is shit, is an argument-less lame attack not even worthy of a response. I hate it not because it's over Indian stuff but because it is lame.

If this has to be considered, then "Russian stuff is shittiest of all available and was bought for only political reasons" too is a general perception and is actually more reasonable perspectives to pursue to avoid Russian stuff.
Unlike screw-giri where you just have to assume that Indian efforts won't ever bear any fruits.

 

[rone]

Facts 90 % Of the Top Indian Brains goes Silicon valley Since 80's Because DRDO doesn't have Enough incentive Tap that talent

Who do you think can Tap that Amount of Monetary assets

Half of you on Will want to leave the country on US visa if Opportunity arises in future Be truthful to yourselves

What India Lacks To Appreciate real talent And Intellect
But What we Do is filled Our Strategic Institutions from the Products of affirmative action or in other word reservation.

DRDO is Socialist relic yes Its Improving but at Speed of Tortoise compared to Chinese Let Keep apart Western R&D institutions

My Words Seems hard to Swallow for many DFI fanboys' But We should better Keep ourselves grounded

actually not, am a post graduate in machine learning in one of the best university in eu located in Italy , i was an intern in OFB, i left India not becoz i like to go aboard, it is because of reservation system adopted in Junior research fellow ship positions and superiority complex mentality in our education system, now am working with a well known company that produce both commercial and military equipment's, to this day if i get half of what i get here in any governmental organisation i leave my job and come to India , every time i apply for a research position in any military related PSU position it will be overwhelmed with reservation or pre defined quota for employ relatives, yes we can argue about examination and selection producer but in to core 95% selection made through recommendations and reservations


but the situation changing now Indian companies start to realize the importance of high skilled local human resource so starting to invest in that sector, also growing demand for technology update to meet with current market trends forcing so many big head brain from IIT band other reputed institution to start their on company in India using start up umbrella and test their luck, by the end of this year i will come back to India and planing to start my own cyber security company that focus on medium scale business in India,

 

[Swiftfarts]

As told before, stats and facts speak louder than rants.

You are short on highlighted part though.

It doesn't again refute that dependence on Russia is going to decline and in fact has declined. The share of foreign equipment in capex outcome yearly and even Russian share is that, isn't even no. 1 in foreign vendors. Given that Russian utilised right now is largely a stock of older systems, spares of equipments which will be outpaced won't make it up anymore.
Further,

You are delusional , if you think russian are going anywhere.
let's bust your bubble.
Russia remained the largest arms supplier to India in 2010-14 and 2015-19, but deliveries fell by 47% and its share of total Indian imports went down from 76% to 56%. Imports from the US, which became India’s second-largest arms supplier in 2010-14 as part of the growing strategic partnership, also fell by 51% in 2015-19. “In contrast, arms imports from Israel and France increased, by 175% and 715% respectively, (rafale, ) making them the second and third-largest suppliers to India in 2015-19,” said SIPRI.

& why's those imports decline ? well if you have done some checking you would have known.
Indian imports decreased by 24% between 2009-13 and 2014-18, partly due to delays in deliveries of arms produced under licence from foreign suppliers, such as combat aircraft ordered from Russia in 2001 and submarines ordered from France in 2008, the report stated.
another reason was lack of money.
If you look at future order book russian share will increase further in next five years.

. However, the Russian share in Indian imports is likely to go up sharply during the next five-year period as India signed several big-ticket deals recently, and more are in the pipeline. These include new system like S 400 , AK 203 , Frigates etc.

.
"Screw-giri" or Indian stuff is shit, is an argument-less lame attack not even worthy of a response. I hate it not because it's over Indian stuff but because it is lame.

If this has to be considered, then "Russian stuff is shittiest of all available and was bought for only political reasons" too is a general perception and is actually more reasonable perspectives to pursue to avoid Russian stuff.
Unlike screw-giri where you just have to assume that Indian efforts won't ever bear any fruits.

For me licencing and assembling is screw giri.That all we do generally and that's a fact. We have come a long way in building things on our own which is good thing and i hope we do less screw giri going into the future. even on our desi products where many critical components are just imported from abroad and passed as indigenous.
as for russian stuff being s**t , i agree on certain area's, disagree on other.

 

[porky_kicker]

Reverse engineering lol

Let's take a very very simple example - a bolt ( as in a nut and bolt )

It is easy to reverse engineer ( copy ) the shaping / structure of the bolt.

Let's assume the bolt is made of an exotic alloy which is a secret.

Now how will one reverse engineer ( determine ) the composition of the alloy of which the bolt is made of ?

Let's again assume one managed to reverse engineer ( determine ) the composition of the alloy.

Now how will you reverse engineer ( determine ) the production process involved in the production of the alloy of which the bolt us made of ?

Now imagine reverse engineering a complex system such as a missile which is a system of systems requiring expertise in hundreds of specialised domains.

Reverse engineering a complex system always results in a sub optimal product. The effort , time , money involved in reverse engineering a complex products is multiple times more than that of developing a complex system on own via original R&D and even than such reverse engineered complex products will always be sub optimal ( inferior ). Anybody remember Chinese Gulzar lol

And now for some entertainment

As for reverse engineering Russian and Israeli systems by DRDO , are the Russians and Israeli companies fools who will let go of their revenue and breach of their IPR without taking recourse to legal action. Oh add to that India is a party to international IPR protection.

Forget reverse engineering , when DRDO installed own Arjun turret on T72 , the Russians forced DRDO to drop the project lol .

And why India ( DRDO ) is the only country with which Russia shares ToT ( for what's its worth ) for its defence products because it knows DRDO does not do illegal reverse engineering. Which Russia doesn't do with even their best buddies china , why ?

And why India ( DRDO ) is the preferred country ( other than US ) with which Israel enters into JVs and ToT because because it knows DRDO does not do illegal reverse engineering.

So much for DRDO reverse engineering Russian and Israeli products.

Frankly speaking DRDO doesn't have the capability or the resources required to do reverse engineering of a complex system. As I said before it's a fool errand to try to reverse engineer complex weapon systems.

 

[porky_kicker]

What research have Indian private companies done in areas it was allowed to do?These guys instead of removing bureaucratic hurdles, pumping more funds into research and test facilities , ,increasing orders think privatization will make India super power.

Important question to be asked is how many Indian companies are known for original R&D .

Coming to defence sector almost all private companies are involved in manufacturing either via ToT from DRDO or foreign companies. Only few companies are somewhat doing own R&D. Frankly speaking manufacturing / production must be completely given to the private sector. It will result in lower cost , shorter production time and better efficiency.

When it comes to R&D

My big expectations are from the Indian startups in the defence sector Like Tonbo , Zmotion , Newspace etc.They are the ones whose R&D is significant, original and game changing.

Next hope is the MSME's like VEM ,Alpha technologies , Dattapatterns etc they are involved both in manufacturing and do a reasonable amount of R&D with involvement of DRDO . Their contribution is significant especially manufacturing.

As for the big companies except for a few like L&T , kalyani , rest are mostly involved in indigenous 'foreign' products and manufacturing using DRDO ToT.

I recommend you guys dig up the army airforce and navy compendium on indigenous solutions by private sector and associated documentations and then you will realise the capability gap regarding the same.

But it is also true that private sector was allowed into defence sector too late and monopoly of DPSUs and OFBs existed . Hence why the reason why I said R&D efforts by private sector needs some time to fructify. Rome was not build in a day.

I will always prefer private companies compared to DPSUs and the shitty OFB when it comes to manufacturing / production and R&D.

But DRDO which is a pure R&D organization can never be replaced in terms of R&D capabilities by the private sector. At best only complement DRDO.

 

[porky_kicker]

Sir, I have been lurking on this forum since a long time. I have seen many of your posts and I appreciate your insight. But I'll be honest with you, you have ZERO understanding of R&D. Frankly, I did not expect to see such B.S. from you.

DRDO has problems, no doubt. DRDO has its fair share of lethargic scientists. Unmotivated people who only want to achieve Government job and the stability that it provides. But I will not agree with you if you say that the entire DRDO is like that and their only achievement has been reverse-engineering Israeli and Russian equipment. This just sounds like something Prasun Sengupta would insinuate. Its plain false.

Those of us in Engineering and R&D know where we stand as a country, where private companies and where DRDO stands. People like you think that TATA can simply buy Embraer and reach the level of Dassault or Boeing? The pedigree that @porky_kicker mentioned is not something you buy with money. Its an entire ecosystem that includes universities, subsystem and lower tier suppliers, etc. It takes decades to create university core research focus groups, that focus on solving particular problems. This requires that you fund your universities. And that is led by industry. You are talking about Chinese R&D. Chinese R&D exists because of financial support and tie-ups with the universities that Chinese industries have. More than that, once such an ecosystem has existed for decades, it has ironed out its workflow inefficiencies, built in redundancies and self-correcting mechanisms. The Private Enterprises have themselves generated vast body of IPR and proprietary products, whose design they continuously improve in minor iterations which accumulate to give generations of products. Then there is government investment. Do you know how many supercomputers of what capability we have running in India atm? Compare that with those in developed nations and China. This problem exists due to the simple fact that we are a developing nation. In time, government investment in R&D will grow many-fold. India does not have any of this right now, yet in your imaginary lala land, TATA will magically create an Indian Boeing-type R&D juggernaut simply by buying Embraer? When TATA is struggling with R&D regarding Aerothermodynamics and Boeing closes its 737 factory and starts selling spaceplanes, don't come crying to DRDO.

I have studied through one of the Central Universities in India, I know the level they have. I know the level state universities and private universities have. The majority of Research they produce is absolute junk. Students are neither well-informed nor self-motivated enough to pursue development of a skill-set. Without good researchers, whether its Ambani or TATA or DRDO, the result will be the same. Only very few Universities in India produce good researchers, and most of these people end up working in either DRDO/ISRO or a foreign company that has good R&D.

You keep talking shit about government not allowing these private companies to build Agni missile. When the reality is that these baniyas have not done much research on the products they do sell. How many futuristic cars has Indian automobile industry produced? Can they match up with likes of Toyota or VW? Hell no. So what BS are you talking about when you say Nehruvian socialism? Did the government tell them not to do R&D? These Indian private conglomerates have ZERO interest in proper R&D. They were crying infront of government when GoI tried introducing Bharat Stage VI citing technological barriers. TATA acquired Jaguar Land Rover and then REVERSE ENGINEERED their chassis and now using the same $hit in its new offerings like TATA Harrier. Mahindra did the same with Ssangyoung motors. Recently, these Indian automakers have started doing some bits of their own R&D. Still a far cry from global competitors. Only affordability keeps them in the game. Why not try to make an actual supercar in India using Indian designers? Because it is ain't that simple. And don't bring up that hypercar called Pininfarina Batista that Mahindra is claiming it made. The designers of the "Car" are in Europe, a company that they bought and the batteries and motors that power that hypercar are from another company that owns the IPR of that technology. None of it was ever made in India. Neither will it. Because creating core R&D in India is something Indian private sector conglomerates will not be able to do due to their baniya mentality.

You are trying to offload the problems of the OFB and DPSU on DRDO, as Indian people tend to usually do. And not just that, you are pinning the collective faults of Indian education system, Indian economy, Indian private companies and Indian citizens onto DRDO.

Tell me, would you $hit on ISRO the same way you $hit on DRDO? ISRO and DRDO are practically on the same level. ISRO is only slightly ahead, reason being ISRO is not as bloated in management as DRDO is because ISRO has a very narrow scope, not like DRDO where you have to create a special type of cabbage to grow in Ladakh while also creating chemical explosives and propellants, avionics, radars of all sorts, missiles of all sorts, fighter jets and tanks, engines of literally all sorts that there are, etc. If you take a hard look at ISRO, ISRO is as far behind companies like Space X and organizations like NASA as DRDO is behind Boeing. So please have some damn perspective. Its bureaucrats like you with your peanut understanding of R&D who create hurdles in Indian R&D sector, although scientists are even worse when given administrative jobs.


And that is DRDO's fault? HOW? Its the fault of Indian Industry that failed to set up enough high-paying R&D jobs. Indian PSU and Railways have failed even harder at this. OFB is the biggest culprit of them all. But DRDO? The only reason some of the brain manages to stay back in India is because their are jobs like DRDO and ISRO.


Reservation is DRDO's fault? HOW? Barking up the wrong tree here.


If you still don't agree to me, that is fine. I was not trying to convince you. You should just stick to your sarkari job where you don't have to worry about R&D. Your kind can't understand it. Let the professionals handle it. R&D is not something you just one day get up and start doing. Try doing an actual PhD in an engineering field, you will realize just how hard it is when you are going at a problem almost alone. Do you know what Timoshenko medal is? Do you know gives it? ASME does. Ever heard that name? Ofc you haven't. Do you know how many Indians got it? And what all they had to do to achieve it? You have barely any understanding of R&D, and your comment is EVIDENCE OF HOW BABUS OF INDIA HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF R&D.

Thank you , you did a good job in explaining the whole thing, in a clear cut manner and without any chance of ambiguity.

I will add just another point

DRDO was targeted for sabotage for a long time via politicians and bureaucrats etc . Project funding withheld , clearance for critical systems denied, talented scientists and engineers denied position of responsibility via cronies working at the behest of immicable parties , sabotage of projects etc etc .

ISRO mostly flew under the radar and sabotage attempts were fewer in numbers ( mostly by US ) and importantly and thankfully the porkies were not much interested in ISRO, their efforts were directed mostly at DRDO.

 

[yoggs]

Check the first two minutes of this video. It took Turkey 45 years to rise in defence sector. State was involved with all stakeholders including private sector and University:


Check the first 5 minutes of this video. Indigenisation, local production and joint production, collaboration with private industry and Universities led to a rise in Turkey defence:

Even in Turkey's case it started with government own institution like DRDO and then bringing the private sector and Universities to build a larger ecosystem. We have just started doing the same what Turkey did yet we are doing good. Thanks to DRDO.

Next decade is very exciting decade for India as DRDO will come up with many products and we are seeing more participation from private sector, start ups and academia. Not denying that we don't have issues but we are getting there.

 

[WARREN SS]

You are trying to offload the problems of the OFB and DPSU on DRDO, as Indian people tend to usually do. And not just that, you are pinning the collective faults of Indian education system, Indian economy, Indian private companies and Indian citizens onto DRDO.

No My problem Is With Monopoly Of DRDO in R&D Project

Start A Tender Process Let DRDO compete With Private Firms

You Will get your answers

Give Private 100 % control On Technology they develop

Sir, I have been lurking on this forum since a long time. I have seen many of your posts and I appreciate your insight. But I'll be honest with you, you have ZERO understanding of R&D. Frankly, I did not expect to see such B.S. from you.

Seeing your Rants Is Not Much Different Less technical arguments More Rants
And Personal attacks Next

Those of us in Engineering and R&D know where we stand as a country, where private companies and where DRDO stands. People like you think that TATA can simply buy Embraer and reach the level of Dassault or Boeing? The pedigree that @porky_kicker mentioned is not something you buy with money. Its an entire ecosystem that includes universities, subsystem and lower tier suppliers, etc. It takes decades to create university core research focus groups, that focus on solving particular problems. This requires that you fund your universities. And that is led by industry. You are talking about Chinese R&D. Chinese R&D exists because of financial support and tie-ups with the universities that Chinese industries have. More than that, once such an ecosystem has existed for decades, it has ironed out its workflow inefficiencies, built in redundancies and self-correcting mechanisms. The Private Enterprises have themselves generated vast body of IPR and proprietary products, whose design they continuously improve in minor iterations which accumulate to give generations of products. Then there is government investment. Do you know how many supercomputers of what capability we have running in India atm? Compare that with those in developed nations and China. This problem exists due to the simple fact that we are a developing nation. In time, government investment in R&D will grow many-fold. India does not have any of this right now, yet in your imaginary lala land, TATA will magically create an Indian Boeing-type R&D juggernaut simply by buying Embraer? When TATA is struggling with R&D regarding Aerothermodynamics and Boeing closes its 737 factory and starts selling spaceplanes, don't come crying to DRDO.

Did I Said It ???

It Will Provide them Management &Y Staff And Ecosystems Of Well Stablished Global supply chain
Of course Embraer has its own R&D division Did they Not ???
Which Will get Funding it required To further Develop projects

Rest Is All Socialist excuses Less technical arguments

Uptill 1992 All Was controlled by Govt Monopsonic firms And Private didn't Have access

You keep talking shit about government not allowing these private companies to build Agni missile. When the reality is that these baniyas have not done much research on the products they do sell. How many futuristic cars has Indian automobile industry produced? Can they match up with likes of Toyota or VW?

Govt Didn't ask they join these projects by policy
Don't Shift goal post
answer the Question Why didn't they Allowed Participate

You are Just changing Goal post How automobile rated To this

And that is DRDO's fault? HOW? Its the fault of Indian Industry that failed to set up enough high-paying R&D jobs. Indian PSU and Railways have failed even harder at this. OFB is the biggest culprit of them all. But DRDO? The only reason some of the brain manages to stay back in India is because their are jobs like DRDO and ISRO.

My Question is Existence Of these PSU's itself
Why Govt Not 100 % commercialized these areas

Why there Is need to Create a Govt PSU Why Not Direct Involvement Of Manufacturing Into Ammo Production like Westerns Democracies

Answer Much Lies in Nehruvian Socialism Economic model

Reservation is DRDO's fault? HOW? Barking up the wrong tree here.

I m Just Pointing out Policy decision Reservation Along With Low incentive Jobs Poor performance DRDO

ou should just stick to your sarkari job where you don't have to worry about R&D. Your kind can't understand it. Let the professionals handle it. R&D is not something you just one day get up and start doing. Try doing an actual PhD in an engineering field, you will realize just how hard it is when you are going at a problem almost alone. Do you know what Timoshenko medal is? Do you know gives it? ASME does. Ever heard that name? Ofc you haven't. Do you know how many Indians got it? And what all they had to do to achieve it? You have barely any understanding of R&D, and your comment is EVIDENCE OF HOW BABUS OF INDIA HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF R&D.

Personals Senile remark Just To Make yourself look Cool And Using Word Hera Cary & Unnecessary rants But less Factual Arguments

Well Do you have Problem With my Job ??? aur its making u uncomfortable

Timoshenko medal
how many did Russians and Chinese got ??? from American Society of Mechanical Engineers

This is getting hilarious

Kya Mazaak hai Kuch bhi Word Hera cary Pel Do phir Bolo mere Pass PHD hai

 

[WARREN SS]

Reverse engineering lol

Let's take a very very simple example - a bolt ( as in a nut and bolt )

It is easy to reverse engineer ( copy ) the shaping / structure of the bolt.

Let's assume the bolt is made of an exotic alloy which is a secret.

Now how will one reverse engineer ( determine ) the composition of the alloy of which the bolt is made of ?

Let's again assume one managed to reverse engineer ( determine ) the composition of the alloy.

Now how will you reverse engineer ( determine ) the production process involved in the production of the alloy of which the bolt us made of ?

Now imagine reverse engineering a complex system such as a missile which is a system of systems requiring expertise in hundreds of specialised domains.

Akash is buk
Basic Tanks KE shells are all IAI products

Swordfish is basically Elta greenpine
most of DRDO Radar are Modification Of IAI ones

There Big List I can compile of DRDO projects

I Mean If DRDO is Doing Screw driving jobs same as Private companies as you accuse them

Why Not Give Private companies Go ahead Since It Will have advantage in more Professional job, accountability And Less Time frame


Now strategic one recent ASAT test

“As far as IR seekers is [sic] concerned,” he said, “the FPA [technology] which was denied to us [due to MTCR] is now not denied… We are not producing FPAs in the country… we are buying those FPAs and the rest of the optics and everything is being done in the country. That is why the possibility of NAG IIR seeker being manufactured in the country [exists] today. But we still have to go a long way… we need many more seekers, we need… LWIR and MWIR [seekers]…”

As sources within DRDO and ISRO conjecture, the likely scenario is that these off-the-shelf Sofradir seekers, in combination with the active radar seeker which DRDO makes, may have been used in the ASAT test. Alternatively, under the ambit of I2MC, an entire off-the-shelf MCT-based seeker may have been supplied by IAI. Of course, given that the test was conducted in the morning (11 am), a simple optical imager coupled with radar seeker could have also been used for homing.

These Seeker are Offs elves Used in Arrow Missile defense

Decoding the anti-satellite weapon test

SECURING the country’s space assets is certainly important, and possessing anti-satellite (ASAT) capability may be arguably necessary for the purpose, but there is no immediate threat perception scenario, either by the Department of Space/ Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) or the Servi

www.tribuneindia.com

 

[porky_kicker]

Reposting news link from the post above

As sources within DRDO and ISRO conjecture, the likely scenario is that these off-the-shelf Sofradir seekers, in combination with the active radar seeker which DRDO makes, may have been used in the ASAT test. Alternatively, under the ambit of I2MC, an entire off-the-shelf MCT-based seeker may have been supplied by IAI. Of course, given that the test was conducted in the morning (11 am), a simple optical imager coupled with radar seeker could have also been used for homing.

These Seeker are Offs elves Used in Arrow Missile defense

Decoding the anti-satellite weapon test

SECURING the country’s space assets is certainly important, and possessing anti-satellite (ASAT) capability may be arguably necessary for the purpose, but there is no immediate threat perception scenario, either by the Department of Space/ Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) or the Servi

www.tribuneindia.com

This is real funny news report from the usual Indian presstitude media

1. First unnamed sources

2. Then the unnamed sources from DRDO and ISRO ' conjecture ' a likely scenario

3. The likely scenario is ASAT used a IIR seeker together with a active radar seeker

4. ASAT homing that too with no less than 2 types of seekers is influenced by the time of launch ie morning(11am)

Enko pata nahi space me morning evening nahi hota everything ghor andhakar. I really want to meet the so called DRDO and ISRO sources lol.

 

[porky_kicker]

Why Not Give Private companies Go ahead Since It Will have advantage in more Professional job, accountability And Less Time frame

Have I being saying anything different ?

Without a robust private defence sector , a strong MIC is not possible and hence orders must be placed with private sector in large numbers, as much as possible to allow them to gain experience , make money and then invest in own R&D in a large way and come up with own home grown products whenever feasible.

I think you are confusing between production and R&D

If tomorrow all existing and future indian military production orders are give to private sector companies only , I will be most happy.

But when it comes to R&D, private sector is dependent on DRDO designs for majority of weapons systems , well untill they gain experience and develop own pedigree.

 

[Karthi]

To do a proper research and development we need Three major things .

Money a lot of it.
Research Facilities.
Human Resources .

India don't have enough money , we are busy in feeding those so called SC/ ST/OBC At least we need to avoid this in research sector .


Why DRDO and Pvt companies going for ToT and Indigenoisation of foreign products is because of what I mentioned above , For pure research we need Money and a lot of time need to develop core tech , if we get those tech from somewhere else we can save a lot of time and resources. And everyone thinking it is because of incompetence but it's not .

And most of the projects starts with a feasibility study , we need a product after a lot of research and it should be cost effective and research itself is a base for business the firm want profit. DRDO is a government agency otherwise it would had been closed by now .

And our Military itself more interested in import , I told many times it's just some of us and soldiers are actually Patriots higher officers and mod Babus only want promotions and money .


And work culture in DRDO is similar like any other government office , incompetence officers are wasting the efforts and delaying the projects. We all knew what happened to Tejas Arjun NAG, LCH etc all these platforms can be Inducted in good numbers much before and can be upgraded to a better platform by now , but you know what happened .

There is one more thing we developed many systems which are not available for purchase eg our Ballistic Missiles , SLBMs etc but we failed to deliver a good rifle because it's available for import .

If you look into the Chinese products almost all of them are low quality Weapons but they didn't hesitated to induct in their military , they are using those with upgraded electronics even today eg DF-5 built a decades ago with a CEP of 1.5 Km , China upgraded it constantly now it's cep is less than 100m with Upto 10 MIRV . Indian Military want the first product itself to beat everything else Tejas should beat F22 otherwise Tejas is junck , Tejas will not be in IAF if there is no Manohar Parekar sir.

The entire system is complicated and privatisation is a key.

 

[fire starter]

Akash is buk
Basic Tanks KE shells are all IAI products

Swordfish is basically Elta greenpine
most of DRDO Radar are Modification Of IAI ones

There Big List I can compile of DRDO projects

I Mean If DRDO is Doing Screw driving jobs same as Private companies as you accuse them

Why Not Give Private companies Go ahead Since It Will have advantage in more Professional job, accountability And Less Time frame


Now strategic one recent ASAT test

“As far as IR seekers is [sic] concerned,” he said, “the FPA [technology] which was denied to us [due to MTCR] is now not denied… We are not producing FPAs in the country… we are buying those FPAs and the rest of the optics and everything is being done in the country. That is why the possibility of NAG IIR seeker being manufactured in the country [exists] today. But we still have to go a long way… we need many more seekers, we need… LWIR and MWIR [seekers]…”

As sources within DRDO and ISRO conjecture, the likely scenario is that these off-the-shelf Sofradir seekers, in combination with the active radar seeker which DRDO makes, may have been used in the ASAT test. Alternatively, under the ambit of I2MC, an entire off-the-shelf MCT-based seeker may have been supplied by IAI. Of course, given that the test was conducted in the morning (11 am), a simple optical imager coupled with radar seeker could have also been used for homing.

These Seeker are Offs elves Used in Arrow Missile defense

Decoding the anti-satellite weapon test

SECURING the country’s space assets is certainly important, and possessing anti-satellite (ASAT) capability may be arguably necessary for the purpose, but there is no immediate threat perception scenario, either by the Department of Space/ Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) or the Servi

www.tribuneindia.com

lol most of the drdo radars are their own product and they own the IPR do u even know how much it is complex to copy radars. Really how country will grow when we have such defeatist mentality instead of praising the hard work we are as usual throwing shit.