DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[bhramos]

#DRDO / #OFB designed mine plough for T-90S Bishma

 

[Tridev123]

IJT to go spin tests.

The success of the IJT is crucial for the future of our aerospace industry. Design houses like the ADA and NAL should not even think of futuristic projects like the AMCA if they fail with the IJT. Being able to master basic aero design and ability to correct defects in indigenously designed aircraft will lay the foundations of a competent aircraft design capability.

How can we think about 5th and 6th generation aircraft design if we do not master the science of designing an fairly basic trainer. Failure will dent our confidence.
Happy to hear that the IJT has cleared most of the hurdles with the redesign albeit taking some foreign help. We need to make the IJT a success and move on to the next generation aircraft like the AMCA, TEDBF and ORCA. The IJT could not be an albatross around the neck of our design houses.

We should explore replacing the current imported engine on the IJT with a indigenous turbofan engine. The HAL designed STFE can be used after certification. Exports are another focus area.

 

[janme]

The success of the IJT is crucial for the future of our aerospace industry. Design houses like the ADA and NAL should not even think of futuristic projects like the AMCA if they fail with the IJT. Being able to master basic aero design and ability to correct defects in indigenously designed aircraft will lay the foundations of a competent aircraft design capability.

How can we think about 5th and 6th generation aircraft design if we do not master the science of designing an fairly basic trainer. Failure will dent our confidence.
Happy to hear that the IJT has cleared most of the hurdles with the redesign albeit taking some foreign help. We need to make the IJT a success and move on to the next generation aircraft like the AMCA, TEDBF and ORCA. The IJT could not be an albatross around the neck of our design houses.

We should explore replacing the current imported engine on the IJT with a indigenous turbofan engine. The HAL designed STFE can be used after certification. Exports are another focus area.

IJT and HTT40, both are HAL projects, nothing to do with ADA, IAF is as much as responsible as HAL for IJT's disaster as they chose the Russian engine which HAL did not deem fit. This fact has been conveniently buried but people in the forum atleast know this.

ORCA is a paper plane/dream which will get 0 funding.

 

[Tridev123]

IJT and HTT40, both are HAL projects, nothing to do with ADA, IAF is as much as responsible as HAL for IJT's disaster as they chose the Russian engine which HAL did not deem fit. This fact has been conveniently buried but people in the forum atleast know this.

ORCA is a paper plane/dream which will get 0 funding.

HAL is also part of our aerospace industry.By stating that ADA and NAL were not participants in the design of the Sitara(IJT) you are creating the scenario that if both of them were involved an successful IJT could have been designed.

Now why was HAL forced to seek help of foreign design centers to correct deficiencies in the IJT if expertise was available in the ADA and NAL. Why didn't ADA and NAL help out HAL. After all they are all part of the Government. Shifting blame onto HAL serves no purpose. We must work in unison.

How does engine choice affect successful stall and spin test characteristics. Please elucidate. Inability to pass stall and spin tests were due to problems in the centre of gravity of the aircraft and other design issues. Would using French engines guarantee success in stall and spin tests without addressing design faults. Please provide technical proof to support your claim.
I am willing to be convinced.

About ORCA yes it is too early to predict. I would prefer going step by step forward. We should first bring the MWF(Tejas mk2) to fruition.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Now why was HAL forced to seek help of foreign design centers to correct deficiencies in the IJT if expertise was available in the ADA and NAL. Why didn't ADA and NAL help out HAL. After all they are all part of the Government. Shifting blame onto HAL serves no purpose. We must work in unison.

Why they will provide Help to HAL for free?
Most probably HAL found cheaper to consult from foreign player's rather than ADA NAl and if ADA can design a supersonic aircraft in 90s it would very funny to think that they can't build basic trainer.
Anyway competition should remain between PSU if we remove that kihichdi will become worst.
Remember leader of commiii organizations aka soviet also had multiple organization which were competition against each other.
If HAL have undertaken a basic project then it's responsibility of HAL to make it success after all funding is digested by HAL then why ADA should work on it???

 

[Tridev123]

Why they will provide Help to HAL for free?
Most probably HAL found cheaper to consult from foreign player's rather than ADA NAl and if ADA can design a supersonic aircraft in 90s it would very funny to think that they can't build basic trainer.
Anyway competition should remain between PSU if we remove that kihichdi will become worst.
Remember leader of commiii organizations aka soviet also had multiple organization which were competition against each other.
If HAL have undertaken a basic project then it's responsibility of HAL to make it success after all funding is digested by HAL then why ADA should work on it???

Are you saying that one arm of the Government failed to support another arm of the same Government and hence the project had a serious setback. The Government and HAL paid the external consultant in dollars depleting our foreign exchange reserves when an indigenous cheaper alternative in the form of ADA and NAL was available. Reflects very poorly on the management skills of the Government and a blot on the nation.

Please remember that the LCA Tejas was designed with significant help from Dassault of France.If there had been no foreign help (consultancy) from any foreign organisation then your statement about us having fully indigenously designed an supersonic fighter would be true. Even the decades back Marut fighter design was helped by a German expert. Though we love our country it is not good to ignore reality. All countries go through this stage.Only if we understand our shortcomings can we plan to overcome them.

The IJT is not a simple commercial venture. Its success will lay one pillar of the foundation of our indigenous aerospace program. It is a project of national importance. All the technical resources available in the country should be used to ensure it succeeds.

Our quest to build our indigenous Kaveri turbofan engine is another project of national importance. You should not put the onus only on GTRE. All available resources in the country should be made available to the GTRE if it is necessary.

Our technical base in the field of aerospace is still limited and mostly confined to the public sector and Government institutions..

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Please remember that the LCA Tejas was designed with significant help from Dassault of France.If there had been no foreign help (consultancy) from any foreign organisation then your statement about us having fully indigenously designed an supersonic fighter would be true. Even the decades back Marut fighter design was helped by a German expert. Though we love our country it is not good to ignore reality. All countries go through this stage.Only if we understand our shortcomings can we plan to overcome them.

Well
So you are claiming that ADA didn't worked on tejas? And all the work was done and finished with just consultancy? Do have any source for that?
When india was building tejas we were stuck by sanctions that forced india to develop fly by wire system and many other things. Many countries are developing new fighter's aircrafts in joint ventures and in collaboration even the F-35 program have multiple partner's.
Taking consultancy doesn't bite you can either go with that or with Chinese way of copying the equipments.
If Tejas design was not indigenous then how ADA have access to whole Technical development of Tejas.
Heck even in our nuclear program in different stages we have taken assistance from different countries but that doesn't mean our development are not indigenous.

Consultancy is a cheap way to counter spending on R&D under consultancy you gain technical know how. We should utilize our defence relationship with other countries to get technical assistance.

you saying that one arm of the Government failed to support another arm of the same Government and hence the project had a serious setback. The Government and HAL paid the external consultant in dollars depleting our foreign exchange reserves when an indigenous cheaper alternative in the form of ADA and NAL was available. Reflects very poorly on the management skills of the Government and a blot on the nation.

When It takes more than 4 years for government to negotiate with government company aka HAL then what makes you think that government can force other companies to share their expertise to HAL for free? Don't you know that a company is also a separate identity from owner?
HAL undertook these programs on it's own because they were the biggest aircraft manufacturer in india building aircrafts from 60s so they claimed that they have enough experience to build aircrafts like this.
IAF rejected HAL product HTT-40 because it was inefficient and government stopped it's funding then HAL used company fund to complete this project.
And btw HAL paid for consultancy from company funds so government was already not taken in confidence and it's not a big deal HAL didn't paid some multi billion $

 

[Tridev123]

Well
So you are claiming that ADA didn't worked on tejas? And all the work was done and finished with just consultancy? Do have any source for that?
When india was building tejas we were stuck by sanctions that forced india to develop fly by wire system and many other things. Many countries are developing new fighter's aircrafts in joint ventures and in collaboration even the F-35 program have multiple partner's.
Taking consultancy doesn't bite you can either go with that or with Chinese way of copying the equipments.
If Tejas design was not indigenous then how ADA have access to whole Technical development of Tejas.
Heck even in our nuclear program in different stages we have taken assistance from different countries but that doesn't mean our development are not indigenous.

Consultancy is a cheap way to counter spending on R&D under consultancy you gain technical know how. We should utilize our defence relationship with other countries to get technical assistance.


When It takes more than 4 years for government to negotiate with government company aka HAL then what makes you think that government can force other companies to share their expertise to HAL for free? Don't you know that a company is also a separate identity from owner?
HAL undertook these programs on it's own because they were the biggest aircraft manufacturer in india building aircrafts from 60s so they claimed that they have enough experience to build aircrafts like this.
IAF rejected HAL product HTT-40 because it was inefficient and government stopped it's funding then HAL used company fund to complete this project.
And btw HAL paid for consultancy from company funds so government was already not taken in confidence and it's not a big deal HAL didn't paid some multi billion $

Well, I have nothing to say if you want to go on rhetoric. Nobody said ADA did zero work while Dassault did 100% work. The British, French, Americans had 75 years of experience of working on design and manufacturing aircraft. India is still a small power in aerospace compared to global aerospace giants.

Anyhow if your belief gives you happiness so be it. I hate to point out the obvious but we are highly dependent on the West and Russia even for basic electronic components like doides, triode, semiconductors etc. There are many thousands of components that go into the LCA. Go through the entire list of systems and subsystems if you have access to the information and determine how much is imported. Why do you want to make us naked. The plight of countries like Pakistan our neighbour is worse. Stop supply from the West and China and most High tech weapons systems would be unusable. India and Pakistan do not even make aerospace grade aluminium alloys used for building aircraft. Most of the information regarding our vulnerabilities is hidden and rightly so.

I do not wish to burst your happiness bubble.
So no arguments.

It would have been better if you had put out a list of all the components of the Tejas and proved that a majority of them in volume and value are produced in India.
We will reach self sufficiency but it will take time.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Anyhow if your belief gives you happiness so be it. I hate to point out the obvious but we are highly dependent on the West and Russia even for basic electronic components like doides, triode, semiconductors etc. There are many thousands of components that go into the LCA. Go through the entire list of systems and subsystems if you have access to the information and determine how much is imported. Why do you want to make us naked. The plight of countries like Pakistan our neighbour is worse. Stop supply from the West and China and most High tech weapons systems would be unusable. India and Pakistan do not even make aerospace grade aluminium alloys used for building aircraft. Most of the informati

World is increasingly becoming globalized.
Even American companies source parts from different nations.
For now tejas haven't reached large scale manufacturing and infrastructure was not even their to build a localised jet but with the development of tejas we have started to build new infrastructure for further developments. Tejas is aggressively becoming more and more indigenous and with private sector coming in.

do not wish to burst your happiness bubble.
So no arguments.

It would have been better if you had put out a list of all the components of the Tejas and proved that a majority of them in volume and value are produced in India.
We will reach self sufficiency but it will take time

Indigenous content of Tejas 59.7% by value & 75.5% by numbers

reduce dependence on foreign companies, out of the 134 imported LRUs, the indigenisation of 42 units is under progress.
Further efforts are being made by way of indigenisation with the objective to reduce the import content progressively, he said

This report is from 2k18
Till the time we start building 83Mk1A we would be able to indigenous it by 75%+

Indigenous content of Tejas 59.7% by value & 75.5% by numbers

In a written reply to Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said that several parts of Tejas is of foreign origin.

www.google.com

Tejas haven't reached the scale of mass manufacturing and it's very funny to think that with developing aircraft industry india can manufacture everything from day one but slowly and steadily we are moving in the right direction with time we have also indigenous Su-30 aircraft.

For example - Godrej Aerospace announced that company manufactured actuators for LCA-Tejas were successfully tested across all altitudes and speeds of operations on 28th May 2020 and now they have been cleared for production by the ADA and HAL. Actuators were originally designed and manufactured by ADA/DRDO earlier but as production is ramped up, it was decided that Private defence sector companies like Godrej Aerospace will take over the manufacturing of them.

INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT OF LINE REPLACEABLE UNITS (LRU’s)
FOR LCA-TEJAS (This one is even more older looks like 2015-16 but note that they were seeking to indigenous all of these equipments)
ADA is the Nodal agency involved in the design and development of Tejas Aircraft along
with HAL as a principal partner and in coordination with nearly 100 work centres spread
across the country. The Tejas development program is in advanced stage, completed
Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) requirements and marching towards final operation
clearance (FOC). Tejas has completed over 2000 flights so far and continuing system
performance and evaluation towards reaching Final Operational Clearance (FOC). There
are 358 LRU's (Components) in the Tejas aircraft, out of which 53% of total LRU's are
indigenously developed with in India. In view to reduce the remaining 47% of the import
LRU's, ADA has initiated the Indigenous development programme for indigenization of the
import LRU's.
The List of Components (LRU's) which belong to different systems of Aircraft, ADA is
looking to indigenous is given in the table below.
Sl. No. System Equipment / LRU
1 Avionics Enhanced – Video cum Digital Recorder (E-VDR)
2 Avionics E-VDR Remote Cassette Unit Holder (RCUH)
3 Avionics E-VDR Removable Mass Memory Device
4 Avionics Global Positioning System (GPS)- Antenna
5 Avionics Gyro Reference Unit [GRU]
6 Avionics HMDS (Head Mounted Display System) -
Guillotine Assembly
7 Avionics HMDS-Line of sight computer Unit
8 Avionics HMDS-Magnetic Transmitter Coil Unit [MTCU]
9 Avionics HMDS-Seat Position Sensor Assembly
10 Avionics HMDS-System Control Panel
11 Avionics Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) - Antenna
12 Avionics Marker Antenna
13 Avionics MMR (Multi Mode Radar) - Ethernet switch
14 Avionics Multi Function Display Unit [MFD]
15 Avionics Radio Altimeter (RAM)-Antenna
16 Avionics RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) - Antenna
17 Avionics RWR - Power Divider
18 Avionics RWR - Switch Filter Assembly (RF Units)
19 Avionics Tactical Navigation (TACAN) - Antenna
20 Avionics Very/ Ultra High Frequency (V/UHF)
Blade Antenna
21 Avionics Very/ Ultra High Frequency (V/UHF)
Radio ACR 500LA

22 Avionics VHF Omni Range – Instrument Landing System
(VOR – ILS) Blade Antennas
23 Avionics VOR - ILS Diplexer
24 Environmental Control Bypass Valve PHE (Primary Heat Exchanger)
25 Environmental Control Cabin Pressure Control Valve
26 Environmental Control Cabin Pressure Safety Valve
27 Environmental Control Cabin Shut-Off Valve
28 Environmental Control ECS-Shut-Off Valve
29 Environmental Control Ejector Shut Off Valve (ESOV)
30 Environmental Control Filter Cabin Pressure Control
31 Environmental Control Flow Control Valve - Avionics cooling
32 Environmental Control Inward Relief Valve
33 Environmental Control Pressure Reducer-Radar and Cabin Seal
Pressurization
34 Environmental Control Pressure Sensor Avionics Inlet
35 Environmental Control Pressure Sensor P26 (Condenser)
36 Environmental Control Pressure Sensor- P79(Avionics Flow Control)
37 Environmental Control Pressure Sensor P24 - Bleed Air Inlet
38 Environmental Control Pressure Switch (Bleed Air Inlet)
39 Environmental Control Pressure Switch-High
40 Environmental Control Pressure Switch-Low
41 Environmental Control Pressure Transducer-Cabin
42 Environmental Control PRV-SOV
(Pressure Reduction Valve/Shut off Valve)
43 Environmental Control PRV-SOV- Control Unit
44 Environmental Control Seal Inflation / Deflation Valve
45 Environmental Control Temperature Control Valve
46 Environmental Control Temperature Sensor (High)
47 Environmental Control Temperature Sensor (Low)
48 Environmental Control Temperature Sensor-Pneumatic
49 Environmental Control Water Separator
50 Electrical 0.35 kVA HMDG (Hydraulic Motor Driven
Generatror) – LH (Left Hand)
51 Electrical 0.35 kVA HMDG – RH (Right Hand)
52 Electrical 0.35 kVA HMDG – VRU (Voltage Regulator Unit)
53 Electrical 30 / 40 kVA IDG (Integral Drive Generator)
54 Electrical 30 / 40 kVA IDG-GCU (Generator Control Unit)
55 Electrical 5 kVA HMDG
56 Electrical 5 kVA HMDG -GCU
57 Electrical Ground Power Receptacle (GPR)
58 Electrical Light - Anti Collision
59 Electrical Light Taxi/Landing
60 Electrical Light-Wander

61 Electrical Power Supply Unit - Anti Collision Light
62 Electrical Undercarriage display unit
63 Electrical Undercarriage Selector Lever
64 ESCAPE Ejection Seat
65 Flight Control Air Data Probe [NADP]
66 Flight Control Air Data Sensor - Left Side [LADP]
67 Flight Control Air Data Sensor - Right Side [RADP]
68 Flight Control AoA (Angle of Attach) Sensor [AoA / AoSS vanes]
69 Flight Control Pilot Control Grip
70 Flight Control Leading Edge Vane Controller (LEVCON) Servo
Actuator Assembly
71 Flight Control Probe Total Temperature [TATP]
72 Flight Control Sensor Assembly, Accelerometer [ASA]
73 Flight Control Sensor Assembly Rate [RSA]
74 Health and Utility
Management System (HUMS) HUMS-Data Acquisition unit
75 Hydraulic Control cable - Park Brake Control
76 Hydraulic Control cable - Under carriage Emergency
77 Hydraulic Emergency Undercarriage Selector Valve
78 Hydraulic Flow Synchronizer
79 Hydraulic Pressure Gauge
80 Hydraulic Pressure Switches
81 Hydraulic Pressure Switch – EMDP
(Electric Motor Driven Pump)
82 Hydraulic Pressure Switch - P/B
83 Hydraulic Pressure Transducers
84 Hydraulic Progressive Pressure Control Valve
85 Hydraulic Slide & Swivel Joints
86 Landing Gear Antiskid Brake Manifold
87 Landing Gear Brake Feel Module Input Potentiometer
88 Landing Gear Free castor valve for Nose Wheel Steering
(Solenoid valve)
89 Landing Gear Nose Wheel Steering Input Potentiometer
90 Landing Gear Nose Wheel Steering Manifold
91 Landing Gear Nose Wheel Steering Position Sensor
(Feedback potentiometer)
92 Propulsion and Fuel Air / No Fuel Float Valve
93 Propulsion and Fuel Differential Pressure Switch
94 Propulsion and Fuel Electric Re-fuelling Valve
95 Propulsion and Fuel Engine third mount pin
96 Propulsion and Fuel Float Valve
97 Propulsion and Fuel Fuel Drain Valve
98 Propulsion and Fuel Fuel Filler Cap

99 Propulsion and Fuel Fuel flow straighter
100 Propulsion and Fuel Fuel flow Transmitter
101 Propulsion and Fuel Fuel Shut Off Cock
102 Propulsion and Fuel Fuel/No Air Valve
103 Propulsion and Fuel Low Pressure Fuel Shut Off Cock dia 25 mm
104 Propulsion and Fuel Motorized Fuel Transfer Valve
105 Propulsion and Fuel Pressure Reducing Valves
106 Propulsion and Fuel Surge Relief Valve - F1 & F2 tanks
107 Propulsion and Fuel Surge Relief Valve - F1A tanks
108 Propulsion and Fuel Surge Relief Valve - Wing tanks
109 Propulsion and Fuel Throttle Grip
110 Propulsion and Fuel Throttle Quadrant Assembly
111 Propulsion and Fuel Transfer Cum Refueling Valve
112 Utility Services and
Monitoring (USMS) Charge Amplifier (Pre Amplifier)

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

This Unexploded Sidewinder Missile Got Stuck in a MiG-17 and Mailed to the Soviets

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Is there any technical problem or foreign import lobbyists are trying to scuttle Helina missile?

 

[Chinmoy]

Is there any technical problem or foreign import lobbyists are trying to scuttle Helina missile?

At around 40kg, HELINA is one hell of a hefty missile. But DRDO doesn't want to leave it. So they are effectively blocking any foreign import.

 

[patriots]

At around 40kg, HELINA is one hell of a hefty missile. But DRDO doesn't want to leave it. So they are effectively blocking any foreign import.

Each Hellfire weighs 104 pounds (47kg)


may be some problem with helina seeker

 

[Chinmoy]

Each Hellfire weighs 104 pounds (47kg)


may be some problem with helina seeker

We are not even considering Hellfire for LCH. LAHAT was suggested way back, but later dropped off.

 

[ezsasa]

At around 40kg, HELINA is one hell of a hefty missile. But DRDO doesn't want to leave it. So they are effectively blocking any foreign import.

Any known public info on total Helina inventory requirement by IA&IAF combined?

 

[Chinmoy]

Any known public info on total Helina inventory requirement by IA&IAF combined?

IAF version would in all probability be without HELINA. They would use only AAM primarily and ATGM in secondary role. HELINA is primarily for IA. But no clarity in overall project scenario.

 

[patriots]

IAF version would in all probability be without HELINA. They would use only AAM primarily and ATGM in secondary role. HELINA is primarily for IA. But no clarity in overall project scenario.

No
Helina is for ia
Dhruvstra is for iaf
Both have different seekers

 

[Chinmoy]

No
Helina is for ia
Dhruvstra is for iaf
Both have different seekers

Both are for same role. Before Apache deal there was hope for HELINA/ Dhruvastra. But with this mess up now, I personally don't think that IAF would pursue it any further.
But lets hope for the best.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

In February 2017, MBDA announced the beginning of a joint venture (JV) with the Indian conglomerate Larsen & Toubro (L&T). This JV Company will notably look to develop and supply fifth generation Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM5s), inspired by the MMP, in order to answer to a requirement of the Indian Army.

Akeron MP - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Missile Moyenne Portée (MMP)

 

[vishnugupt]

@Abhijeet Dey
Is there any technical problem or foreign import lobbyists are trying to scuttle Helina missile?

Have you heard about the different playing field ?? When you knew that DRDO don't have a particular technology/advantage/Feature but foreign vendors offering it so when you go to MOD and keep pressing for that particular advantage/technology/feature and insist that without this feature weapon is useless. Here is a like what CDS himself said

CDS Bipin Rawat: Forces must shun imports, go for ‘Make In India’, says Gen Bipin Rawat | India News - Times of India

India News: The armed forces have to get rid of their dependence on exorbitant foreign weapon systems & ensure that ‘Make in India’ doesn't remain a slogan, Gen B

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

[/QUOTE]

Each Hellfire weighs 104 pounds (47kg)


may be some problem with helina seeker

Recently spike and MBDA PARS missiles failed in summer trails in Thar beyond 2.5km range but Army wants 4 km range so Helina seaker is much better than its contemporary.

At around 40kg, HELINA is one hell of a hefty missile. But DRDO doesn't want to leave it. So they are effectively blocking any foreign import.

DRDO has no authority over armed forces what armed forces want to import. Whenever requirements arise force go to MOD but MOD itself has no expertise so they discuss this given requirement within a panel where a DRDO guy also sits. When MOD is not satisfied with Armed force's arguments then MOD sends the proposal back.
Now day, it seems everybody is fad up with armed force unwanted GSQRs that why Modi, Rajnath, Nirmala, Vipin Rawat urging them to go for inhouse solutions