DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

ezsasa

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Yes i agree with this.
One of the biggest objective of Afghanistan war was to enhance military capabilities and boost American companies by giving them more business and tuning their system according to different climatic conditions. To make it easier to sell.

But in our case things are totally different few years back we were not good with even the basic things. Such as artillery ATGMS we still don't have a indigenous tank infantry support vehicles. Etc even the Pakistani OFB can compete with ours.
And this is the condition when we are most of the time at war with our close neighbor Pakistan and facing much advanced threats on eastern borders.
India constantly does many military exercises to keep up to date.
But in past because of chor government and lack of support from armed forces kept us away from testing and development of systems.
But now things are changed.

Waiting for the best doesn’t work, we will take what you produce, Vice Chief of Army assures industry
Referring to a long standing dilemma for the domestic defence development ecosystem, Lt Gen MM Naravane said that `best’ cannot be the enemy of the `good’ and unless systems are inducted and used in the field, they cannot be improved to global standards.


In my mind DRDO should focus only on elite stuff such as radars engines etc and simpler stuff should be created by private sector. DRDO have best minds of india and they are working hard but i do think load from them should be divided and management issues need to be resolved.
And that’s why export licenses are being issued to local defence manufacturers, more so in recent years.

Just because India is not going to war anytime soon, that doesn’t mean other regions in the world are not. That’s the reason we saw Mahindra type vehicle manufactured in UAE the other day. anything Indian companies can learn from outside of our borders is also useful.

When the time comes, atleast knowledge is gained by domestic private players.
 

porky_kicker

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Shiv aroor dubbed it as a "war between drdo n rafael". Interesting Read though,


Sharp Sniping War Erupts Between India’s DRDO & Israel’s Rafael


https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...rupts-between-indias-drdo-israels-rafael.html
Classic example of exaggerated reporting by Indian presstitudes.

Why is rebuttal of a claim being projected as a case of fight between 2 companies ?

This is how Indian sensational media works to sell news. In the end they forcibly pour fuel to a small fire to turn it into an inferno and they give a rats ass about any consequences due to such 3rd grade sensational reporting.
 

Suryavanshi

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Classic example of exaggerated reporting by Indian press.

What is rebuttal of a claim a example of war between 2 companies ?

This is how Indian sensational media works to sell news. In the end they forcibly pour fuel to a small fire to turn it into an inferno and they give a rats ass about any consequences due to such 3rd grade sensational reporting.
Live Fist is a defence oriented news portal and mostly corrects other news site for misquoting images of planes.

We consider a twitter war when A tweet is directly replying to another tweet.
So by definetion they are wrong.
Looks like they couldn't keep their hands away from a Clickbait title.

I wasn't expecting this from them but I guess Journalism will remain Journalism.
 

porky_kicker

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Live Fist is a defence oriented news portal and mostly corrects other news site for misquoting images of planes.

We consider a twitter war when A tweet is directly replying to another tweet.
So by definetion they are wrong.
Looks like they couldn't keep their hands away from a Clickbait title.

I wasn't expecting this from them but I guess Journalism will remain Journalism.
Presstitudism not journalism..................

Also note their list of foreign ad sponsors.
 

Raj Malhotra

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Rafael tried to kill Akash SAM project & has been responsible for obstructing lot more orders.

They also prevented development of modified Trishul SAM to dominate Naval VL SR SAM requirement.

Phalcon lobby prevented further orders for Indian AEWs.

Israelis blocked Indian 125 MM FSPDS round development

Etc etc
 

porky_kicker

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Rafael tried to kill Akash SAM project & has been responsible for obstructing lot more orders.

They also prevented development of modified Trishul SAM to dominate Naval VL SR SAM requirement.

Phalcon lobby prevented further orders for Indian AEWs.

Israelis blocked Indian 125 MM FSPDS round development

Etc etc
I don't support foreign companies , i support local companies.

But what you wrote unfortunately has not a single iota of truth

Without the help of Israeli companies ( in exchange of money paid for ToT / orders ) many of the drdo products would have struggled .

Do you know nirbhay missile involves Israeli technology ?

Do you many of the older DRDO radars are built on Polish technology which was later indigenised and the newer ones incorporated Israeli technologies which were indigenised step by step and later new products were developed locally based on the experience and technology gained.

Indian BMD was based on whose technologies ? Which later got progressively indigenised and replaced by local technology

Palcon lobby prevented Netra ? or the reluctance of IAF to induct low endurance platforms ?

DRDO gets pennies from Indian government for R&D and you expect them to conjure world class products by magic ?
without hand holding in terms of foreign consultancy or ToT whose scope varies from case to case.

Jignoism does not serve anybody sir .

Whoever deserves credit , they must be given their due.

DRDO is now in a position where in 5 years time they will be completely independent of any foreign help in almost all of the domains.
 
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captscooby81

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More like American Javelin sales man is trying to pour oil in fire between Israel Spike and Drdo ATGM ...shows his loyalty to his paymasters time and again ..

Live Fist is a defence oriented news portal and mostly corrects other news site for misquoting images of planes.

We consider a twitter war when A tweet is directly replying to another tweet.
So by definetion they are wrong.
Looks like they couldn't keep their hands away from a Clickbait title.

I wasn't expecting this from them but I guess Journalism will remain Journalism.
 

NeXoft007

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Some news tho...

1. Three experimental trials of upgraded Brahmos by early next year.

2. Akash-NG diameter is confirmed to be 0.25m, slightly thicker than Barak 8 (0.225m)
IMG_20191129_212741.jpg


3. Astra Mk. II diameter is confirmed to be 0.178m. Same as Astra Mk. 1.
IMG_20191129_213341.jpg
 
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sayareakd

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100 years of making guns and weapons.
Pampered by British masters than Indian Government.
Over 100 factories and multiple workshop.
27000 workers just like @south block.
Multiple R&D centres.
Billions worth of funds.
Billions worth of assets.
Well established infrastructure.
Political support.
Everything they could've ever wanted.


What do they build.



Lmao jams in cold temperature, ugly looking piece of shit, a bloody 10 th century khukri is more reliable.

Vs


Started out as a nut and bolt company.
No help from government.
Probably less net worth than 50 million $
Two or three factories at most.
Invest their own money for R&D
No previous experience.
No political support.
Gov job ******s don't want them to exist.

What do they produce.



While the a rifle vs sniper comparison may not be fair it still proves my point
Bhai in WW2 Soviets and Germans had made tanks. In the end what happened we all know. Just for records. Those Getman tanks in Russian winter didn't start, Soviet ones had no such problems. Soviet T34 only had one upgrade in war. They had practical but war winning tank. Germans had state of art tank, it took days to make it. Soviet Ladies were making almost one tank a day.

Why this story. In war, it's about resources, management, war winning. If you want to give 10 lakh rifles, plus same numbers with paramilitary. You need cheap, faster to make, suitable to your and in enemy conditions, etc etc.

You may not like design, it's not NATO standards, accessories etc. But its also true that none of other foreign rifles and carbines were able to pass Indian GSQR tests. Then IA had to come back to OFB for the same. We have worlds most hostile conditions and equipment stop working here.

Now some Private companies have come, it's good start. But dont get distracted by shiny toys. It should fulfill GSQR.

When I asked similar questions to make two years ago. He said, "those plastic toys may look good but when it comes to continuous firing, they cant, we tested it for 1500 rounds continuously, this will stand as per GSQR".
I was taking picture, other members of DFI talking that time.
 

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Deathstar

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Bhai in WW2 Soviets and Germans had made tanks. In the end what happened we all know. Just for records. Those Getman tanks in Russian winter didn't start, Soviet ones had no such problems. Soviet T34 only had one upgrade in war. They had practical but war winning tank. Germans had state of art tank, it took days to make it. Soviet Ladies were making almost one tank a day.

Why this story. In war, it's about resources, management, war winning. If you want to give 10 lakh rifles, plus same numbers with paramilitary. You need cheap, faster to make, suitable to your and in enemy conditions, etc etc.

You may not like design, it's not NATO standards, accessories etc. But its also true that none of other foreign rifles and carbines were able to pass Indian GSQR tests. Then IA had to come back to OFB for the same. We have worlds most hostile conditions and equipment stop working here.

Now some Private companies have come, it's good start. But dont get distracted by shiny toys. It should fulfill GSQR.

When I asked similar questions to make two years ago. He said, "those plastic toys may look good but when it comes to continuous firing, they cant, we tested it for 1500 rounds continuously, this will stand as per GSQR".
I was taking picture, other members of DFI talking that time.
Theres a reason AK47 is the most produced , copied , used rifle in history. Its reliability , lethality, rigidity , simple design, low cost made it a hit
 

Archer

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I don't support foreign companies , i support local companies.

But what you wrote unfortunately has not a single iota of truth

Without the help of Israeli companies ( in exchange of money paid for ToT / orders ) many of the drdo products would have struggled .

Do you know nirbhay missile involves Israeli technology ?

Do you many of the older DRDO radars are built on Polish technology which was later indigenised and the newer ones incorporated Israeli technologies which were indigenised step by step and later new products were developed locally based on the experience and technology gained.
First off, you are doing a great job cataloguing the various programs and projects on this thread. Really interesting and takes, time and effort. Kudos.

Coming to the Polish radar thing, unfortunately this is a misconception based on the amount of stuff Prasun Sengupta originally spread around the TRS series of radars and our domestic 3D CAR variants. Literally everywhere i look he has posted something or the other on that line and its widely spread by now. The reality is the program was a JV. Both partners worked together on the technology. This was detailed in a IEEE report by the Poles on the program, which they called an Indo-Polish joint attempt to make a 3D system and I had the opportunity to discuss the topic with one of its designers. We then developed the 3D CAR which had a completely different (and more powerful) data handling system, and in the 2nd step, we even replaced the JV developed antenna & many other internal key items with new designs. The Poles took theirs and made a coastal defense system variant. We have now moved beyond the original program with the Ashwini series, in which we have adopted AESA.

Indian BMD was based on whose technologies ? Which later got progressively indigenised and replaced by local technology
The Israelis shared some aspects of the GreenPine architecture and TRMs with us. But we had to do the rest of the signal processing and C3I at home. The LLTR is in essence, an Indo-Israeli design which has been indigenized completely and it too will make way to a completely new design far superior to the original GP/LLTR architecture. Point being these JVs they give us some stuff, we do the rest and if they hadn't, we would have done it anyhow, taking more time.

Palcon lobby prevented Netra ? or the reluctance of IAF to induct low endurance platforms ?

DRDO gets pennies from Indian government for R&D and you expect them to conjure world class products by magic ? without hand holding in terms of foreign consultancy or ToT whose scope varies from case to case.
Jignoism does not serve anybody sir .
Whoever deserves credit , they must be given their due.
DRDO's products are world class in some respects, and still behind in some, usually the sizing (our packaging, designs are still bulkier). Question is whether they meet the SQRs. If they do that, and the SQRs are competitive, then we are ok. For instance, we routinely buy Russian. They have the same challenge, question then becomes not whether S-400 is as compact as a competing Euro system but whether it can still get the job done, despite larger size.
For the record, many of Israels products are not world-class either. The French and Americans routinely mock us for buying Israeli, as we are victims of their over-promise and under-delivery in several cases.
On the other hand, we have had some really good deals with the former which will help us leaps and bounds. Our deals with the US seem to be "hafta" to keep them happy, nothing more, nothing less. I can't see a single real technology gain we have got (for domestic manufacture) from any of our deals so far which is truly a step forward of what we'd get anyways from other vendors.

DRDO is now in a position where in 5 years time they will be completely independent of any foreign help in almost all of the domains.
I am not sure of this at all, because Defence Research is a huge domain and there are many many areas where we have to yet make a mark. We will have to go the JV route, and that will still help us.
 
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porky_kicker

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First off, you are doing a great job cataloguing the various programs and projects on this thread. Really interesting and takes, time and effort. Kudos.


I am not sure of this at all, because Defence Research is a huge domain and there are many many areas where we have to yet make a mark. We will have to go the JV route, and that will still help us.
You have me on a bad day really sick .

As you your self said what i do takes lot of effort and time , conversely it also means i have considerable insight into the realities much of which are unknown. My info comes not from pressititudes or their crappy news reports but scientific journals and papers etc that is straight from the source.

I take offense that you implied i follow PSK , IMO i consider him to be a mullah and hence not be trusted. Except for the pics.


What i described in my previous post was the earlier days when drdo was not in a position to enter JV on equal terms.

What you described was the following years when drdo gained the necessary expertise to enter JV on equal terms.

This is a lot of difference when it comes to symantics eg porkies have JV with Chinese on jf17 which is a JV on name only. A feel good lie.

Do you think drdo is like them ?

Technology is always a step by step process , no short cuts .

Initially when drdo did not have the expertise they got some of the tech , they worked on it , what they got is " know how " also known as ToT, what they developed from the " know how " is " know why " which meant they now had complete mastery over the product development

Later on drdo leveraged this indigenous " know why " to negotiate with the polish to enter into JV so that drdo got acess to tech in exchange of corresponding transfer of drdo tech to the polish which they wanted or lacked.

The product the JV developed had both drdo and polish tech for superior capabilities.

The Israelis shared much more than you wrote , regarding BMD the Israelis themselves got help from the Americans on which they worked on to develop their own.

DRDO did the same , they got the tech which they wanted from the Israelis on which they worked on to develop the same. This included radar C3I etc .

The kinetic aspect of drdo BMD is completely indigenous though.

The foreigners mocking us for buying from foreigners or we needlessly sweating over it , which one is more hilarious bro ?

Let me end this here by saying developing a product by R&D is hard enough when one does not have any experience on the same and productionising the said product is even harder when one does not have the expertise on the same. and this is where india has lacked and continues to lack , though some progress has been make.

Eg insas rifle as a lab prototype was a excellent product but when it entered production , that is mass production started from factories , it started showing problems . Why ?
Lack of quality production process, state of the art toolings and machinery , QC process through our production cycle etc .

All those ToT and JVs are mostly drdo attempts to get production technologies one way or the other , something which no country wants to share or give

As for the 5 years comment , that was said by the current drdo chief .

As for the routes and steps drdo took to gain competency , it was a deliberate choice given the lack of time , lack of desired budget , lack of government support in the earlier and intervening years , political sabotage etc

So i think what happened did happen for good.
 
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Holy Triad

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Shiv aroor dubbed it as a "war between drdo n rafael". Interesting Read though,


Sharp Sniping War Erupts Between India’s DRDO & Israel’s Rafael


https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...rupts-between-indias-drdo-israels-rafael.html

Update:


Israel firm Rafael apologises to DRDO for jibe on missile programme, calls it ‘unintended


Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, the firm said, ‘affirms and applauds’ the work done by DRDO in building new-age technologies for India.

https://theprint.in/defence/israel-...missile-programme-calls-it-unintended/328520/
 

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