DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

Bhadra

Bhadra

New Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,756
Country flag
We were discussing the issue of weight of 155 Towed Artillery guns in the forum. I was on the course of understanding and discussing the disadvantages of ATAGS for its weight being three tons above the comparable guns, namely Dhanus and ATHOS.

One of the lurker ambushed me in a classical style of “after shoot analysis” by asking three questions.

1. Which country in the world has 155 Towed Howitzer less than 15 tons of weight ?

2. Which 155 Howitzer with APU has a weight less than 15 tons ?

3. Which 155 Howitzers required to fire at 60 km range has less than 15 tons of weight.

From the manners of his ambushes and fault finding I can make out that lurker to be “Cut Throat” who was peeved that his monopoly is being invaded. Let us leave it at that and try and find “rational” answer to those questions.

First of all, no there was requirement to search for a gun less than 15 tons when the two other guns – Dhanus and ATHOS in competition are present in 12 ton weight ? I am sure after so much of endeavour and efforts, IA Artillery is not going to search for 155 Howitzer in Argentina or Italy looking for a 155 How of less than 15 tons of weight.

Secondly, weight of a gun or howitzer in India is definitely an important issue which has a mountainous border with Tibet of 3380 km, with Bhutan 600 km (Defence treaty obligation) with Pakistan an LC of 740 km. Indian border with Bangladesh which is riverine, boggy and slashy, is 4096 km and with Myanmar is 1643 m which is also mountainous, semi mountainous and obstacle ridden jungles.

Thirdly, I put a counter question. Which country in the word has the rising Himalayas on its border extending about 4000 km from East to West and rising from 500 MSL to average 3500 meters? It has depth of rise from 200 to 350 kms and range after range. Alpines and Andes are nowhere in comparison. Only Afghanistan has somewhat similar mountainous deserts towards East bordering China and India / Pakistan.

So why should any country endeavour to make a 155 Howitzer less than 15 tons ? US and American expeditionary forces might not be thinking of deploying their forces in Himalayas ! US Forces in Afghanistan

Fourthy, if weight was not so vital an issue why did India buy such an expensive system as ULH ? India could be contemplating of adding more of ULH to the inventory in future. Helicopter lifting is not the only reason when Indian planner know how packed the weather and visibility remains in mountains
 
Bhadra

Bhadra

New Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,756
Country flag
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lw155.htm

XM777 Lightweight 155mm howitzer (LW155)
The Lightweight 155 (LW 155), formerly known as the Advanced Towed Cannon System (ATCAS), LW 155 will replace all US Marine Corps (USMC) cannon systems and be used as a direct support weapon. The US Army (Army) will use the system as a general support weapon in the light forces and as a direct support weapon for the Light Cavalry Regiment replacing all of the M198 155mm towed howitzers.
The Marine Corps has a valid, approved, high priority requirement for an advanced towed lightweight 155mm howitzer that meets increased operational thresholds for mobility, survivability, deployability, and sustainability in an expeditionary environment. The Army shares this fire support requirement in the interest of its light forces. The Marine Corps (ACMC) approved a Joint Operational Requirements Document (JORD) in June 1995, and the Army approved it in September 1995. This system combines both Army and Marine Corps efforts to replace the M198 with the more responsive LW155.



The LW 155 will provide close and deep fire support and interdiction fires. It will be lightweight without sacrificing range, stability, accuracy or durability. The system is designed as a howitzer, prime mover and associated equipment. The system shall be deployable to any region and shall operate in most climatic conditions. The US Marine Corps will use the weapon as a direct support weapon, replacing all existing cannon systems. The US Army will use the LW 155 as a general support weapon in the light forces and as a direct support weapon for the Light Cavalry Regiment, replacing the M198 155mm towed howitzer.
G
 
garg_bharat

garg_bharat

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
5,078
Likes
10,138
Country flag
Bhadra said:
Secondly, weight of a gun or howitzer in India is definitely an important issue which has a mountainous border with Tibet of 3380 km, with Bhutan 600 km (Defence treaty obligation) with Pakistan an LC of 740 km. Indian border with Bangladesh which is riverine, boggy and slashy, is 4096 km and with Myanmar is 1643 m which is also mountainous, semi mountainous and obstacle ridden jungles.

Thirdly, I put a counter question. Which country in the word has the rising Himalayas on its border extending about 4000 km from East to West and rising from 500 MSL to average 3500 meters? It has depth of rise from 200 to 350 kms and range after range. Alpines and Andes are nowhere in comparison. Only Afghanistan has somewhat similar mountainous deserts towards East bordering China and India / Pakistan.

Fourthy, if weight was not so vital an issue why did India buy such an expensive system as ULH ? India could be contemplating of adding more of ULH to the inventory in future. Helicopter lifting is not the only reason when Indian planner know how packed the weather and visibility remains in mountains
Click to expand...
I think Dhanush has solved mountain howitzer issue. Plus Bharat Forge is building a new 105mm ULH. More M777 may be ordered as well.

Durability and reliability are also important issues when talking about weight.

Longer range means that more options are available to deploy the gun. So weight is an issue only if moving the gun to a deployment area is not possible. ATAGS will stay heavy due to long range as structure has to be super-strong to bear the recoil.
 
N

neeraj_

New Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
118
Likes
199
Bhadra said:
India have a requirement of about 3500 numbers of 155 How in the category of ULH, Towed and Mounted Guns . India already have 400 numbers of 155/39 Bofors in the inventory.
India has about 300 M46 upgunned to 155 Cal.
In between India is in the process of inducting 145 ULH which can be considered as towed.
Therefore India has 845 towed 155 how in the inventory.
India thus would need further 2600 -2700 towed and motorised (Mounted) guns.

Dhanus has been awarded orders for 114 Guns.
Subsequently Dhanus may be used for replacement of 400 Bofors guns.
ATAGS likely to be awarded 150 Guns order.

Thus the fight remains for about 2500 towed and mounted guns.
ATHOS is a proven gun and ATAGS is under trial.

India may opt for 300 -400 Mounted guns.
The numbers of towed guns thus will be around 2000 -2200 guns.

That is the race ATHOS and ATAGS.- builder for both is one - Kalyani. ( so I may buy a few more shares of Bharat Forge).
Click to expand...
Well actually only 210 around Bofors are left rest were cannibalized or aren't in a state to be used now.

Athos will rest with around 400 .

M777 may see an increase may be double or triple.

ULH by Kalyani is something to look out for.

While K 100 from Korea may get another 100 - 200 guns order.

Dhanush have assured contract for 114 more than that will rest on its performance and will stretch to 400+ .

So we have 5 new systems along with old Bofors and Russian guns which are being upgraded.

It's a huge arsenal which Pakistan will face within a decade. Things are going good now in artillery Dept.
 
Bhadra

Bhadra

New Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,756
Country flag
neeraj_ said:
Well actually only 210 around Bofors are left rest were cannibalized or aren't in a state to be used now.

Athos will rest with around 400 .

M777 may see an increase may be double or triple.

ULH by Kalyani is something to look out for.

While K 100 from Korea may get another 100 - 200 guns order.

Dhanush have assured contract for 114 more than that will rest on its performance and will stretch to 400+ .

So we have 5 new systems along with old Bofors and Russian guns which are being upgraded.

It's a huge arsenal which Pakistan will face within a decade. Things are going good now in artillery Dept.
Click to expand...
I agree with you.
Dhanus perhaps will have to upgrade to 52 caliber for standardization purposes. Considering the stated rate of production of 36 per year (maximum) this system might be slated as slow replacement of Bofors - peg it at 400.

All said and done, Indian LFG will continue to be there for considerable time for mountains.

M777 is the system most appropriate for mountains and the number so far is meager ony to meet requirement of specific nature.
SP gun programme may not get further impetus if India acquires mounted gun systems which are more flexible and economical.
ATHOS will be good enough for plains as also mountains considering its 12 ton weight.
ATAGS may largely remain confined to plains.

Kalyani's Ultra light How if it comes through will be the answer of many ills.
So far Indian Army artillery has not gathered huge arsenal to support seven to eight IBG operations simultaneously at an envisioned density and ferocity of fire power.

However, one thing is certain - Army's plan to acquire full numbers of 155 Howitzers by 2022 appears delayed which is not good.
 
A

Advaidhya Tiwari

New Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
1,443
Bhadra said:
I agree with you.
Dhanus perhaps will have to upgrade to 52 caliber for standardization purposes. Considering the stated rate of production of 36 per year (maximum) this system might be slated as slow replacement of Bofors - peg it at 400.

All said and done, Indian LFG will continue to be there for considerable time for mountains.

M777 is the system most appropriate for mountains and the number so far is meager ony to meet requirement of specific nature.
SP gun programme may not get further impetus if India acquires mounted gun systems which are more flexible and economical.
ATHOS will be good enough for plains as also mountains considering its 12 ton weight.
ATAGS may largely remain confined to plains.

Kalyani's Ultra light How if it comes through will be the answer of many ills.
So far Indian Army artillery has not gathered huge arsenal to support seven to eight IBG operations simultaneously at an envisioned density and ferocity of fire power.

However, one thing is certain - Army's plan to acquire full numbers of 155 Howitzers by 2022 appears delayed which is not good.
Click to expand...
What is the problem with 45 caliber artillery compared to 52 caliber? The shell is the same, isn't it? Then how does it matter whether it is Athos or Dhanush? Athos has as range as Dhanush with margin of 10%.

ram singh तोपची said:
is it possible to use same shell / projectile ,NOT THE CHARGE in 155x39,155x45,155x52 artillery gun
Click to expand...
The amount of charge depends on the range you want to fire and the stress ability of barrel. Same charge can be used in 45 & 52 caliber
 
Bhadra

Bhadra

New Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,756
Country flag
Advaidhya Tiwari said:
What is the problem with 45 caliber artillery compared to 52 caliber? The shell is the same, isn't it? Then how does it matter whether it is Athos or Dhanush? Athos has as range as Dhanush with margin of 10%.


The amount of charge depends on the range you want to fire and the stress ability of barrel. Same charge can be used in 45 & 52 caliber
Click to expand...
Well, if you want to discuss the basics let it be so unless you are testing members of the forum !
Given the same charge, ranges achieved by 45 caliber gun will be less than 52 caliber - 6975 mm length Vs 8060 mm length. The shell inside 8060 mm barrel will get greater acceleration as also spin. It is 38 km Vs 45 km. Seven km is a considerable range difference.
 
A

Advaidhya Tiwari

New Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
1,443
Bhadra said:
Well, if you want to discuss the basics let it be so unless you are testing members of the forum !
Given the same charge, ranges achieved by 45 caliber gun will be less than 52 caliber - 6975 mm length Vs 8060 mm length. The shell inside 8060 mm barrel will get greater acceleration as also spin. It is 38 km Vs 45 km. Seven km is a considerable range difference.
Click to expand...
Athos has 41km range while Dhanush has 38km range. This is less than 10% difference. The reason Athos is light is because its barrel is not made as heavy as ATAGS and hence can withstand lesser pressure. So, despite its longer barrel (16% longer), it is not able to be significantly better than Dhanush. It is not able to match ATAGS in same barrel length due to less pressure handling ability.

So, merely citing 52 vs 45, it makes little sense without considering other factors too. So, why the insistence on 52 over 45 caliber?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S DRDO UGRAM ASSAULT RIFILE Indian Army 26
cyclops India’s Scientists Working on Strategic Technology(ISRO, DRDO, BARC, etc) - Crime/Accident/Suicide/Early-Death Watch Strategic Forces 5
W DRDO test unmanned armed boat Defence & Strategy 0
cyclops Embraer deal kickbacks: CBI arrests lawyer Gautam Khaitan Indian Air Force 3
Similar threads

Articles

Top