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[Lonewarrior]

Could anyone tell me that how on earth a 105 mm APFSDS round could achieve 500 mm RHAe penetration at 2000 mtr and that too at 60 degree angle? As far as I know, none of the existing 105 KE round could do that.

I know that the things mentioned in all these documents are just tentative requirements but as for this specific point, the answer is yes and no.

Yes, it's quite impossible to achieve a pen figure of 600mm at 2000m and that too at 60°... though DM63 can penetrate 550mm at 2000m and M900 can penetrate 650mm at 2000m, but the fact is they achieve this at 0°, not 60°.

No, because if you combine DU penetrator with a +P+ NATO chamber you can easily achieve a pen figure of 500mm+ at 2000m.

Infact the same John Cockerill we'll be using on our light tanks have recently penetrated 580mm using this same set-up.

As about things getting up close and personal in Himalayas, I am saying this based on my personal experience. Our stand is Defensive-Offense. As long as we don't change it into Offensive-Defense we need to work on our armour too.

If I'm not wrong then the only scenario where armoured vehicles are going to get very close is urban warfare. Otherwise be it cliff or mountains, the visibility is quite high in high altitude warfare. Infact the highest practical engagement that's supposed to happen in a combat is usually in a ridgeline to ridgeline combat.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I know that the things mentioned in all these documents are just tentative requirements but as for this specific point, the answer is yes and no.

Yes, it's quite impossible to achieve a pen figure of 600mm at 2000m and that too at 60°... though DM63 can penetrate 550mm at 2000m and M900 can penetrate 650mm at 2000m, but the fact is they achieve this at 0°, not 60°.

No, because if you combine DU penetrator with a +P+ NATO chamber you can easily achieve a pen figure of 500mm+ at 2000m.

Infact the same John Cockerill we'll be using on our light tanks have recently penetrated 580mm using this same set-up.

If I'm not wrong then the only scenario where armoured vehicles are going to get very close is urban warfare. Otherwise be it cliff or mountains, the visibility is quite high in high altitude warfare. Infact the highest practical engagement that's supposed to happen in a combat is usually in a ridgeline to ridgeline combat.

Correct. While penetration is hard to get, perforation at 60 degrees of 600mm is very much a possibility.

 

[Chinmoy]

No, I didnt. We have moved on from WW2 style shells. Perforation from APFSDS actually increases with the angle of a plate.

You are talking about the Tube-Rod concept in all probability. I am talking about a simple rod penetrator fired from a 105mm canon penetrating a 500 mm RHAe positioned at an angle of 60 degree at 2km.

And if a simple 105 projectile could still do it, then I am sure that the guy who asked for 600 mm RHAe definitely knows his job unlike what few thinks here.

You do realise that "around the corner" doesnt work for tanks? And infantry screen, or if you want the cheapest of drones can be used to prevent any "surprises" beyond a peak.
Mountains have kilometers between them buddy.

If you are bringing in every aspect of battle, then going by that logic, we should get each and every update of enemy movement from drone or satellite overview and decimate them there with arty barrage. There is virtually no need for deploying tank in those heights then.

But is this the case?

 

[Chinmoy]

I know that the things mentioned in all these documents are just tentative requirements but as for this specific point, the answer is yes and no.

Yes, it's quite impossible to achieve a pen figure of 600mm at 2000m and that too at 60°... though DM63 can penetrate 550mm at 2000m and M900 can penetrate 650mm at 2000m, but the fact is they achieve this at 0°, not 60°.

No, because if you combine DU penetrator with a +P+ NATO chamber you can easily achieve a pen figure of 500mm+ at 2000m.

Infact the same John Cockerill we'll be using on our light tanks have recently penetrated 580mm using this same set-up.

RFI is for tank, not ammo. So basically here user wants a gun which could achieve it with standard ammo.

If I'm not wrong then the only scenario where armoured vehicles are going to get very close is urban warfare. Otherwise be it cliff or mountains, the visibility is quite high in high altitude warfare. Infact the highest practical engagement that's supposed to happen in a combat is usually in a ridgeline to ridgeline combat.

War starts from situation like these. Its just the matter of time that who fires the first shot and who is able to absorb the first shot and live to retaliate.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

You are talking about the Tube-Rod concept in all probability. I am talking about a simple rod penetrator fired from a 105mm canon penetrating a 500 mm RHAe positioned at an angle of 60 degree at 2km.

Nope. I am simply talking of perforation, not penetration.
APFSDS penetrate less with higher angle. They perforate more with higher angle. Perforation kills just as well as penetration.

 

[WarmongerLSK]

Nope. I am simply talking of perforation, not penetration.
APFSDS penetrate less with higher angle. They perforate more with higher angle. Perforation kills just as well as penetration.

Noob question, how does penetration kill without perforation? Do APFSDS work like HESH rounds?

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Noob question, how does penetration kill without perforation? Do APFSDS work like HESH rounds?

Perforation means that apfsds projectile didnt go through, but it cut enough of the plate, and then sent enough energy through plate that the back end sheared off (a bit like hesh, but not exactly). Penetration means the penetrator was also able to go into the tank.

Like this is an example of just barely acheiving perforation


And this is penetration


Penetration doesnt kill without perforation, penetration just has the added benefit that the remainder of APFSDS, which is moving faster than the peices of armour, will keep going and thus have more chance of hitting important stuff (like ammo rack, if it has thick steel in front).

For most cases perforation is fine, penetration is preferred but not necessary.

 

[Sayman Ame]

Noob question, how does penetration kill without perforation? Do APFSDS work like HESH rounds?

hehe...he said penetration...hehe. ( i also want to know the answer tho)

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

hehe...he said penetration...hehe. ( i also want to know the answer tho)

reload bro

Edit : A rather crude drawing to try and explain -

 

[patriots]

Shiv arooor in his report says
In might go for some nlca s
Though in his report says ada has no info about the order and they are focussing on tedbf

 

[karn]

You completely misunderstood his point!!

Let him speak for himself.

 

[Lonewarrior]

hehe...he said penetration...hehe. ( i also want to know the answer tho)

APFSDS-T : Extra ribbed for her intense pleasure

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

hehe...he said penetration...hehe. ( i also want to know the answer tho)

Dude it will penetrate the target at 1400 -1800 m/s. Are you sure you want???

 

[Blood+]

Let him speak for himself.

He already spoke and you failed to comprehend!!

 

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[Lonewarrior]

View attachment 200863

Ah..ha, blasting Bunds since 1869

 

[karn]

He already spoke and you failed to comprehend!!

I comprehended perfectly if you have something to add do so .. Instead of sending one liners.

 

[Blood+]

I comprehended perfectly if you have something to add do so .. Instead of sending one liners.

Just talking about the front hull.. That Belgian turret has ammo in its bustle with blow out panels in any case. And if it not so impressive then a 600mm HEAT protection in the frontal arc is pretty reasonable ask.

As I said, you comprehended zilch!! He never said anything about defeating the projectile, and in fact, he spoke to the contrary!!

 

[karn]

As I said, you comprehended zilch!! He never said anything about defeating the projectile, and in fact, he spoke to the contrary!!

Ah I guess you did not comprehend my post either.

 

[Blood+]

Ah I guess you did not comprehend my post either.

Really?? Educate me then—the part in bold to be exact. I'm all ears.