DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[SwordOfDarkness]

Sorry, but where did you see me fighting??!!

You really believe that I'm a total moron, don't you??

I didnt think this comment was very constructive, but if you feel the discussion was productive and not personal, my apologies. Feel free to continue.

 

[Blood+]

I didnt think this comment was very constructive, but if you feel the discussion was productive and not personal, my apologies. Feel free to continue.

Did you look at the original comment that I had replied to??

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

You are way overestimating the difference, mate!!

I know I am. Realistically it will not cross 600.

Edit: Ill take some time out to get realistic pen values.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Did you look at the original comment that I had replied to??

Which is why I pinged both

 

[Blood+]

Why does everyone fight so much smh :/

Anyway, heres the thing - first of all, pen values depend on what type of RHA you are using, and the difference is quite noticeable. 540 at 2000 wont go beyond 650 at 500m, even if we take the pen value to be reliable and not bumped up for export. The thing to keep in mind is that this is passive protection, i.e. without ERA. With ERA, it should easily prevent perforation of the armour, up to rounds capable of around ~800-900 RHA pen, like chinese MBT rounds.

Secondly, its a pretty weird statement to say that "himalayas" will make the fights close distance. If anything, they will increase the range of engagement, especially in areas like Ladakh where the lack of vegetation & construction and the relatively cold environment will make tanks easily visible thermally.

Lastly, RFI is not the end of the deal. RFI is a dream list that is released for designers to try and meet. RFP is based on what is actually possible after seeing the designs.

I know but to even 'dream' of such fantasies call for a psych evaluation of this 'dreamer'!! 600mm under 25 tons??!! Do you even realize how fucking ridiculous that sounds??

 

[Blood+]

I know I am. Realistically it will not cross 600.

600?? Try ~570, and even that is being quite generous. But yeah, you are right.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I know but to even 'dream' of such fantasies call for a psych evaluation of this 'dreamer'!! 600mm under 25 tons??!! Do you even realize how fucking ridiculous that sounds??

Hmm, not really. Weight in RFI is permitted to 27.5 tons, IMO realistically will come to 30 tons around RFP time.

And in 30 tons, you can trade side protection for frontal arc

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

600?? Try ~570, and even that is being quite generous. But yeah, you are right.

My point was that RFI might have given 600 not for type 15 pen, but for chinese MBT pen.

 

[Blood+]

Hmm, not really. Weight in RFI is permitted to 27.5 tons, IMO realistically will come to 30 tons around RFP time.

Hmm.. but even the Chinese Type-15 does not boast such level of protection at 35 tons.

 

[Blood+]

My point was that RFI might have given 600 not for type 15 pen, but for chinese MBT pen.

What?? Wait, I think you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that a round that pens 540mm at 2000 meters won't go beyond 570mm at 500 meters, and even that is probably an overestimation on my part.

 

[abingdonboy]

German engine,Belgian turret everyone was making joke on how private players werent indigenous enough I will have blast seeing them defend this and all of it in 25 tonnes with amphibious capability with a stupid plan to get 59 DRDO tanks and then get others in an open competition.lol

Plug and play is how every major OEM works these days, can anyone fault DRDO/Indian private industry for not having niche tech considering near 100% of the armoured fighting vehicles thus far have been sourced from abroad? Even the attempts to indigenise (Arjun) were thwarted. To localise much of Arjun DRDO asked for minimum 500 units, IA went for 124 and later b!tched about low serviceability of the type.

now these geniuses are only earmarking ~15% of the light tank requirement for DRDO/L&T, the rest will be licence assembly with ‘make in india’ stickers. What incentive is there to pour in countless millions/years of R&D for so little prospect of a return?

 

[abingdonboy]

As I said
View attachment 200503
Some people here were adamant that we were making an indigenous turret

For the prize of just 1regiment?

DRDO is at least playing the game IA have forced them into- IA was probably hoping DRDO would spend the next 15 years trying to do everything in-house (aka Early days of LCA) and use the delays as justification for a direct import as usual.

make what you can, fill the gaps from the open market and indigenise over time once they clowns have actually paid you. That’s the only sustainable model going forward, trying to over deliver is never rewarded by this current set of leadership.

OOh protection ? I guess IA gernails should have donned some before giving birth to such ideas.

You’ve missed the part in the RFI where the IA says they’d prefer for the light tank to have modular driver systems- tracked and wheeled

 

[IndianHawk]

India's Rocket Force Begins To Take Shape As Development Of Pralay, Nirbhay Missiles Complete, User Trials Soon

swarajyamag.com

 

[Corvus Splendens]

For the prize of just 1regiment?

DRDO is at least playing the game IA have forced them into- IA was probably hoping DRDO would spend the next 15 years trying to do everything in-house (aka Early days of LCA) and use the delays as justification for a direct import as usual.

make what you can, fill the gaps from the open market and indigenise over time once they clowns have actually paid you. That’s the only sustainable model going forward, trying to over deliver is never rewarded by this current set of leadership.

Not against the Cockerill turret integration, infact it's the most sensible thing to do. And it no doubt sped up the development of the vehicle since it's slated to roll out this year. We'll likely see a Cockerill turret offering for the IFV too. The common chassis sharing between two vehicles is already significant development in my book.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

What?? Wait, I think you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that a round that pens 540mm at 2000 meters won't go beyond 570mm at 500 meters, and even that is probably an overestimation on my part.

Yeah I got your point. The reason I didnt bother about the 105 mm canon pen was, with 600mm passive + era, it is absolute overkill for a 105mm cannon. 600mm + ERA looks more like an attempt to counter MBT rounds, and that would correlate roughly to what china can bring out. That seems to be the idea behind IA setting 600mm pen, and not the roughly 600mm pen that type 15 can do.

And I did a calculation taking a few assumptions, the round will pen around 570 at 500m.

Spoiler: Assumptions and calculations

Taking a rough measurement from the picture it seems to be around 25:1 penetrator.

Taking velocity reduction values from known rounds and applying the ratio to the round given, its velocities are roughly

1432 at 2000
1507 at 500

Plugging in the value for velocity into a pen calculator till we reach 540mm pen, we can assume the rough size of the penetrator. After plugging the velocity at 500, we get a value of 576mm pen.

 

[abingdonboy]

MBTs, you mean. Yeah, the ZTZ 96 will become a problem but luckily, the Army will have a whole bunch of T-90S to make mince meat out of those.

And it quickly becomes apparent the IA haven’t got a freaking clue what they are doing or why they want a light tank other than

1) PLA rolled something called a light tank out
2) they saw another opportunity to float a global RFI and become the blue eyed boys of arms dealers the world over

the MPF the US Army is rolling out isn’t even a light tank in role (despite having a LOT more armour than the IA wants for their 25t max gross weight LT),it’s meant to be a fire support platform for dismounted infantry and is designed as such from the ground up

if the only point of the LT is to defeat other LTs and will really struggle in a fight against even moderately heavy tanks then how is this even worthy of an entirely new vehicle? Why wouldn’t NAMICA be a far superior option? In terms of weight it’s comparable with what the IA demands from LT and the top attack NAG has far better chances against a heavier MBT

if needed they can even drop the NAMICA turret on a Kestral and it’s likely possible to expand the launchers to 8

just another boondoggle that won’t go anywhere for at least 10 years

 

[abingdonboy]

Then we'll again get caught with our pants down. We'll again come back to the drawing board. We'll again issue a RFI for medium weight tank

Cough cough, FRCV

IA has got that covered already

 

[Blood+]

Yeah I got your point. The reason I didnt bother about the 105 mm canon pen was, with 600mm passive + era, it is absolute overkill for a 105mm cannon. 600mm + ERA looks more like an attempt to counter MBT rounds, and that would correlate roughly to what china can bring out. That seems to be the idea behind IA setting 600mm pen, and not the roughly 600mm pen that type 15 can do.

And I did a calculation taking a few assumptions, the round will pen around 570 at 500m.

Spoiler: Assumptions and calculations

Taking a rough measurement from the picture it seems to be around 25:1 penetrator.

Taking velocity reduction values from known rounds and applying the ratio to the round given, its velocities are roughly

1432 at 2000
1507 at 500

Plugging in the value for velocity into a pen calculator till we reach 540mm pen, we can assume the rough size of the penetrator. After plugging the velocity at 500, we get a value of 576mm pen.

Well done, mate. Now, please tag that chinmoy fella, he's the one who needs to see this the most.

 

[karn]

Is the 600mm protection for HEAT or APFSDS ?

 

[Blood+]

And it quickly becomes apparent the IA haven’t got a freaking clue what they are doing

Since when hasn't that been true?? Their moto be like - "If even we don't know what we are doing, then the enemy will definitely not know what we are doing".

or why they want a light tank other than

1) PLA rolled something called a light tank out
2) they saw another opportunity to float a global RFI and become the blue eyed boys of arms dealers the world over

Well, to be fair, light tanks can have a place there, especially in the infantry fire support role. The notoriously low gun depression of Russian MBTs is definitely going to become a problem in the northern front, and a light tank will come in quite handy there.

the MPF the US Army is rolling out isn’t even a light tank in role (despite having a LOT more armour than the IA wants for their 25t max gross weight LT),it’s meant to be a fire support platform for dismounted infantry and is designed as such from the ground up

Yeah, I know, and this is the concept the Indian Army should have gone with.

if the only point of the LT is to defeat other LTs and will really struggle in a fight against even moderately heavy tanks then how is this even worthy of an entirely new vehicle?

Light tanks of that sort will be most useful for providing the infantry with a mean to deliver precise and rapid fire at a cheaper cost. Can't do that with missiles, simply won't be economical enough. But yeah, a fire support vehicle would have been a better suit for the intended role, I agree.

Why wouldn’t NAMICA be a far superior option? In terms of weight it’s comparable with what the IA demands from LT and the top attack NAG has far better chances against a heavier MBT

Well, the cost would be a huge problem. An APFSDS round will cost you in excess 2000 $ where as a gen 3 ATGM on the other hand - you get the point. In my opinion, a combination of different systems would be needed. NAMICA and loitering munitions for targeting MBTs and other high value targets at beyond line of sight ranges where as light tanks for line-of-sight ones.

if needed they can even drop the NAMICA turret on a Kestral and it’s likely possible to expand the launchers to 8

Nah, the tracked chassis of BMP-2 would be better suited there.

just another boondoggle that won’t go anywhere for at least 10 years

Quite possible.