DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[radion]

We need a single engine jet based on al31/f110(>120KN) rather than something like hlft-42 which is just between tejas and mwf with the same engine(<100KN). im still waiting for any hjt 36 order.

 

[abingdonboy]

IAF has been made a complete fool by Modi govt. and (HAL + ADA) PSU ecosystem.

• Even after IAF wailing for a decade, govt. buys only 36 jets.
• Tejas Mk1A starts manufacturing in 2024 (83 deliveries will take till 2028-29).
• Tejas Mk2 is nowhere in sight (no guarantee of more delays), and will tentatively enter production in 2028 (if everything goes correctly, and that is a big expectation).
• AMCA tentatively sometime in 2032 (if everything goes correctly, and that is a big expectation).

Meanwhile, China has rolled out more J-20s than we have Su-30MKIs. Pakistan with its beggar economy is almost reaching parity with us in air power. Our pilots have to fly widowmaker Mig-21s which will probably get shot down within the first 5 minutes of war if they don't crash due to malfunction.

Great going keep on blaming IAF.

The IAF have made fools of themselves

look at the above graphic (OPEX bill) and tell me where the money for 100++ (foreign) 4.5+ gen jets has ever been? They’ve been religiously clinging To this fantasy for more than 20 years now and the saga continues

on LCA MK1A front- without this exact GoI MK1A would not exist. And the 2024 delivery date is a byproduct of the contract date (March 2021). It was IAF that was messing around with price negotiations on this deal for ~2 years. Without that the MK1A would be in service today. And facing a squadron shortage who told the IAF 83 MK1A were sufficient? Who told them to cut LCA MK.2 commitments (barely even 120 units now)? All to keep their MRFA fantasy alive

so take NDA out of the equation how different does 2023’s IAF look? Do they have their MMRCA? No. Do they have their LCA MK.2? No. Do they have AMCA? No. They’d have 16+16+8 LCA MK.1 and maybe some additional (almost obsolete) Su-30s.

 

[flanker99]

IAF chief is just parroting what timeline has been handed over to him. You expect him to bicker and talk shit behind the back of MoD and HAL ? Its not that IAF is happy or content with the timelines, it is what they have been made to accept by govt.

Previous all IAF chiefs have stated their concern regarding falling squadron rates and stalling of MRCA orders.

Nah back then things were mk2 by 26 and amca by 2030 but the past chief's kept it to 28 and 35ish

 

[ezsasa]

Atmanirbharta is a necessity. But this is just bad/criminal planning at the end of MoD and fake-promise-generator PSUs.

Bite what you can chew. It is alright to slowly scale up and increase self-reliance. Start 1-2 indigenous projects with 100% focus, and make them a success story. Rest we can keep on buying/local assembly (screwdrivergiri),

We don't have the luxury to afford delays/failures in projects, if we fail, we lose territory or even an optimistic future. Europe & other peaceful countries have the luxury to experiment around, we don't.

What should have been done -

• Ordered 126 Rafale in 2014 as a replacement for Mig-27/Mig-29. [Failed]
• Ordered 83 LCA Mk1A as replacement of Mig-21 [Success]
• Order 200+ LCA Mk2 as a replacement for Mig-29/Jaguar/Mirage-2000. [Future goal]
• Order 200+ AMCA as replacement of Su-30MKI [Future goal]

In this way, even if our indigenous projects get delayed, we still have a comfortable margin and won't loose our operational preparedness.

bite what you can chew is what is happening now.

other than old rafale deal that didn't happen, what is different from your what should have happened and what is happening?

and even on old rafale deal, how will it happen when the OEM was not keen on making them within India using HAL as production agency?

and more importantly fighter jets are not the only CAPEX IAF has been spending money on. and money is a still a limited resource for GoI.

 

[flanker99]

The IAF have made fools of themselves

look at the above graphic (OPEX bill) and tell me where the money for 100++ (foreign) 4.5+ gen jets has ever been? They’ve been religiously clinging To this fantasy for more than 20 years now and the saga continues

on LCA MK1A front- without this exact GoI MK1A would not exist. And the 2024 delivery date is a byproduct of the contract date (March 2021). It was IAF that was messing around with price negotiations on this deal for ~2 years. Without that the MK1A would be in service today. And facing a squadron shortage who told the IAF 83 MK1A were sufficient? Who told them to cut LCA MK.2 commitments (barely even 120 units now)? All to keep their MRFA fantasy alive

so take NDA out of the equation how different does 2023’s IAF look? Do they have their MMRCA? No. Do they have their LCA MK.2? No. Do they have AMCA? No. They’d have 16+16+8 LCA MK.1 and maybe some additional (almost obsolete) Su-30s.

How is IAF responsible for price negotiations ?..thats mod's job isn't it?....mk2 commitment comes later the product comes first ...120 is a good number to start with...and at this point more foreign jets are absolutely necessary since domestic options will take longer

 

[abingdonboy]

+ let’s not forget IAF explicitly ruled out a repeat off the shelf buy for 36 Rafales (that was partly priced into the first tranche) instead favouring their full MRFA demand. ~5 years it’s reported they are considering the off the shelf repeat order again (now likely at a much higher markup)

again taking the taxpayer for a ride simply because their egos won’t let the MMRCA demand go.

 

[vishnugupt]

Atmanirbharta is a necessity. But this is just bad/criminal planning at the end of MoD and fake-promise-generator PSUs.

Bite what you can chew. It is alright to slowly scale up and increase self-reliance. Start 1-2 indigenous projects with 100% focus, and make them a success story. Rest we can keep on buying/local assembly (screwdrivergiri),

We don't have the luxury to afford delays/failures in projects, if we fail, we lose territory or even an optimistic future. Europe & other peaceful countries have the luxury to experiment around, we don't.

What should have been done -

• Ordered 126 Rafale in 2014 as a replacement for Mig-27/Mig-29. [Failed]
• Ordered 83 LCA Mk1A as replacement of Mig-21 [Success]
• Order 200+ LCA Mk2 as a replacement for Mig-29/Jaguar/Mirage-2000. [Future goal]
• Order 200+ AMCA as replacement of Su-30MKI [Future goal]

In this way, even if our indigenous projects get delayed, we still have a comfortable margin and won't loose our operational preparedness.

Would you take Guarantee that once 114 rafale bought UN Generals will not kill MWF by bypassing requirements?? General ATHOS ko dekha tha na?
It will be even better idea if we dismantle DRDO and defence sector because why to waste money for research even if we can't utilise it.
Ukraine -Russia war is clear crystal example for you that you will end up loosing your territory if your defence rely on foreign nations.
Lack of vision of UN Generals are the sole reason what are Armed forces suffering today. They must had vision back in 2000 about what is going to strike today.

 

[vishnugupt]

The point is even a bankrupt beggar nation is matching us militarily that speaks a lot about our efficient gernails
Just remember if porkies would have been in our place they would have been a significant power in this region

Do not compare Pakistan when it's come to funding.
Pakistan Army run whole country so they have got luxury but in return Pakistan is bankrupt today.

 

[abingdonboy]

Would you take Guarantee that once 114 rafale bought UN Generals will not kill MWF by bypassing requirements?? General ATHOS ko dekha tha na?
It will be even better idea if we dismantle DRDO and defence sector because why to waste money even research even if we can't utilise it.
Ukraine -Russia war is clear crystal example for you that you will end up loosing your territory if your defence rely on foreign nations.
Lack of vision of UN Generals are the sole reason what are Armed forces suffering today. They must had vision back in 2000 about what is going to strike today.

100%, this ‘one more time’ nonsense has to be called out and expelled.

P75 was meant to give all the expertise needed to make SSK domestically, within 15 years IN were pitching P75(I)

ATAGS saga is well known

T90’s existence killed Arjun


T90’s ‘TOT’ meant that FRCV is still being issued as a global tender

What Su-30 tech found its way to LCA?

give these guys an inch and they’ll take a mile, IDDM is a direct threat to their import preferences. The motivations behind importing can be debated- some put a charitable spin on it but given the sums involved and the well known reputation for this industry being amongst the most kickback heavy in the world it would be absurd to ignore this incentive structure

 

[jai jaganath]

Do not compare Pakistan when it's come to funding.
Pakistan Army run whole country so they have got luxury but in return Pakistan is bankrupt today.

Bro efficiency comes into play
I bet u give these generals power to execute mrca even then if they can come to conclusion
Porkies have clear intent to destroy us
Do we have any posture to eliminate our enemies

 

[vishnugupt]

How is IAF responsible for price negotiations ?..thats mod's job isn't it?....mk2 commitment comes later the product comes first ...120 is a good number to start with...and at this point more foreign jets are absolutely necessary since domestic options will take longer

In Domestic deals, MOD is just mediator or say moderator. This is Armed forces which give overall numbers, reserve spare parts, simulator and training support.

HAL Initial quotation was high for Tejas mk1a as UN Generals gave long list of demands like Groom family give list of items for dowry.

Product first then order follow?? This formula do not work in defence. Show me a weapon which developed without giving intended numbers?? Defence sector do not work in this way.
This is not like selling Momos, Koi na Chocolate Momos bana do koi South Delhi ki nibbi kha hi legi.

 

[flanker99]

First proper good news.

 

[vishnugupt]

Bro efficiency comes into play
I bet u give these generals power to execute mrca even then if they can come to conclusion
Porkies have clear intent to destroy us
Do we have any posture to eliminate our enemies

Honesty speaking, I do not think Paki is competition to us in any field of defence even in Air power.
This is UN Generals who is bringing us misery. Our local products are enough to deal with them decisively if you use them effectively and in numbers.

 

[skunk works]

The 404 and even the 414 will be too weak for the HLFT 42

True but How can it really be the Marut without having underpowered engines?

 

[skunk works]

In Domestic deals, MOD is just mediator or say moderator. This is Armed forces which give overall numbers, reserve spare parts, simulator and training support.

HAL Initial quotation was high for Tejas mk1a as UN Generals gave long list of demands like Groom family give list of items for dowry.

Product first then order follow?? This formula do not work in defence. Show me a weapon which developed without giving intended numbers?? Defence sector do not work in this way.
This is not like selling Momos, Koi na Chocolate Momos bana do koi South Delhi ki nibbi kha hi legi.

CHOCOLATE momos? Kya BEGHAIRAT cheez hai ye??

 

[skunk works]

It has about as much chance of ever seeing daylight as the SU-75.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

you seem to be suggesting India should also get itself a big daddy or two, because that's how pakis have been getting their toys for decades.

we are talking about the fast decisions and clear-mindedness of pak army when it comes to their procurement, not where they get their money from. if they have resources,they don't waste any time(even though it has come at a cost of forcing changes in Pakistan's economics and politics that has given rise to other structural weaknesses)

 

[skunk works]

we are talking about the fast decisions and clear-mindedness of pak army when it comes to their procurement, not where they get their money from. if they have resources,they don't waste any time(even though it has come at a cost of forcing changes in Pakistan's economics and politics that has given rise to other structural weaknesses)

A good weapon, if failed by poor leaders, is ultimately a shit weapon.

 

[skunk works]

In Domestic deals, MOD is just mediator or say moderator. This is Armed forces which give overall numbers, reserve spare parts, simulator and training support.

HAL Initial quotation was high for Tejas mk1a as UN Generals gave long list of demands like Groom family give list of items for dowry.

Product first then order follow?? This formula do not work in defence. Show me a weapon which developed without giving intended numbers?? Defence sector do not work in this way.
This is not like selling Momos, Koi na Chocolate Momos bana do koi South Delhi ki nibbi kha hi legi.

Part of me believes Indian senior leadership have poor technical knowledge and do not at all keep up with the latest technical literature.
What exactly are you doing so much testing for? What kind of test goals and documentation is maintained? How much are simulators used in place of expensive real world testing?
Why is rapid prototyping philosophy not applied? Why are developers not given a minimum set of goals to achieve for a rapid prototype and then go from there?
They want a perfect product on day 1 (stupid way of thinking if you are making anything complex.)

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Honesty speaking, I do not think Paki is competition to us in any field of defence even in Air power.
This is UN Generals who is bringing us misery. Our local products are enough to deal with them decisively if you use them effectively and in numbers.

what he said has some truth,pakis, in general, are very clear about their objective which is dictated by their illiterate book, they are just a stupid people that suck at execution,long term planning and warfare. their military is also filled with their share of corruption which in turn affects their core strength in other areas other than military like economics,political stability,etc by sacrificing a lot of it for gains in speed of decision making reagrds to military and foreign policy. of course,in recent decades, these strategic decisions have started showing their side effects and are exceeding the benefits for the pak state's agenda.

we should be happy that pakis have absorbed those parts of islam that make them primitivists and hinder modernization and thereby the future tech driven modern economy - which leads to low economic strength which might contribute to state failure and military failure. But their efficiency in using resources and their level of dedication to their goal should give us pause to think how much more india could have achieved by not dithering around and having a more clear intent in goals.