DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Chinmoy]

Yes RFP/RFS will clear the final requirements reached upon by Army. I would like to add that response to this RFI for ATAGS is also likely to come from 2 vendors, Tata & Bharat Forge. That may also be advantage to ATAGS.

Seeing a sane comment after long.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

I am not flogging him. I've issue with his showmanship. As of now, he is all talks and gas.

Whatever he is dishing out is basically license version or JV. What is his in house R&D except metallurgy?

Baba Kalyani is the sole reason that India has went from having a a total of zero indigenous artillery systems sometime in 2012 to having atleast 8 indigenous options on offer in 2022.
He put in his own money and time to make sure that India is at this stage when it comes to artillery systems.
You mean to tell me that MaRG 155-BR, Garuda 105, ULH-S, ULH-T, ULH-ER are all licensed copies of some foreign system LoL, goes to show your ignorance.

 

[Chinmoy]

However, the Army has not been fully satisfied with this (ATAGS) gun’s performance, and has been looking at procuring a limited number of the Israeli firm Elbit’s Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS).

The Army is looking at 400 of these guns (for 20 regiments) to overcome what it terms “operational voids in the medium artillery in HAA (High Altitude Area) along the northern borders”.

As reported by ThePrint, Elbit has actually offered to manufacture the guns in India with 70 per cent indigenous content.

Armed forces get ‘emergency’ breather from negative list, can import items in certain cases

A committee chaired by Gen. Bipin Rawat will oversee indigenisation efforts, and recommend the removal of items from the negative import list if needed.

www.google.com

And surprise surprise......... Who would be making it?

 

[Chinmoy]

When did words carry that kind of weight in India though, here meanings change as per the will of the user. We can try to focus on that word but I guess there is a very well intent for a less than 15 tons which is certainly not ATAGS. I believe intent of user is ample clear. Maybe had ATAGS not cleared trials or still ways off, this would have made sense but not now though.

The only question that keeps kicking my mind is why didn't IA made sure that ATAGS was less than 15 tons in the design stage itself? No synergy between Drdo and IA, or just chalta h ji.
This stupidity of not focusing on product in the design stage, not piloting it's progress by the user and then complaining more often when requirements are changed later by the user themselves.
Only plausible reason being that Army was of mind that there would be imports and license produce of videshi gun and ATAGS will be given token orders like that of Arjun.
I believe everybody is more or less familiar with self sabotaging in our armed forces.

Have you read the RFI completely?

 

[Chinmoy]

And how much time do you think it would take for Indian Commercial vehicle Industry to make a vehicle rated to tow a 15 ton gun to tow an extra 3 ton..? 2 months, 2 years or 10 years ?

Actually RFP for 20 ton FAT was out 2 years ago. IA already knew what was coming.

 

[Chinmoy]

Difference is no one sinks funds unless there is guaranteed order.
IA wants the fruit without sowing the seeds, that's not how it works.
Is Kalyani receiving state patronage like the OFB?
They have to squeeze out funds from their own profits.

Exactly. And that is how business is done. Why you think govt was hell bent on privatizing OFB or are privatizing other public enterprises?
If government has to patronize someone, then they would patronize that party whom they could control or is under their control.

Our private companies be like, I want orders, but I am not going to take risk.

 

[karn]

This is the most Surf Excel snotting argument I have ever heard.
Hello, cooperation between agencies, academia and forces, ever heard of that?
Doesn't IA have to atleast specify the requirement if Drdo is making anything for it?

Read again what you wrote and are you trying to justify it?

Only thing that can be argued logically is since some of the new towing trucks are rated for 15 tons gun hence inducting a part of them is preferable. Then again IA doesn't have a whole lot of the new towing trucks, mostly are scania which will have to be replaced sooner or later.

The army specified and drdo could not achieve ..
Army asks for higher capacity trucks after the fact .
Now you can snort whatever you want after that .

 

[Chinmoy]

Baba has done a commendable job if you compare with others though . Its Yesterday's company if we compare it to PSU which has been in business for decades . But in this short period they have shown multiple variants of artillery ( ULH , ULH mounted , marg ER , bharat 52 , garuda ) , and along with DRDO ATAGS , ATAGS MGS . Capability to manufacture titanium artillery . They have also some other systems to show . All this without orders of any artillery . They also managed to export artillery worth 155.5 million $ and own MRO contracts from multiple nations . So they did proved themselves . And have a good future potential .

And if you go on and see their product line up, almost all of them are either based on, derived from or license built from foreign OEM. In other words, he is just doing what OFB has been doing all these years. Same with others too. But I don't have issue with that too. You have to absorb technology and that is a good way to do that.
My problem is, he keeps on beating his drum more then what he could deliver. He could improve ATAGS only if order is given. Why can't he improve it before hand and place it under test?
He could invest in ATHOS license or ATHOS derived Bharat-52, but would wait for orders to come to invest in ATAGS.

 

[Chinmoy]

LoL, I have come across many people claiming ATAGS some problem, kindly name a single problem that the ATAGS has

I personally don't see any problem in ATAGS except some compatibility issue with user.

 

[Chinmoy]

Baba Kalyani is the sole reason that India has went from having a a total of zero indigenous artillery systems sometime in 2012 to having atleast 8 indigenous options on offer in 2022.
He put in his own money and time to make sure that India is at this stage when it comes to artillery systems.
You mean to tell me that MaRG 155-BR, Garuda 105, ULH-S, ULH-T, ULH-ER are all licensed copies of some foreign system LoL, goes to show your ignorance.View attachment 186755

Already commented on this. Please don't bring this indigenous system again. These are as much indigenous as our Sukhoi.

 

[jai jaganath]

when did you ask them?

I have asked one marcos officer who has left his service
Another one relative who is in service but not in combat as he was shot in toe in 1999 now he is officer
I asked him about officer leaving the service and he spoke briefly about it

 

[Chinmoy]

To all those people who are doing R@nd1 R0n@ here over the RFI, I would like to point out one point here.

ATHOS when tested didn't have BIT, but has ATE as similar to our Bofors. As of now only M777 has BITE with it. This BITE is unique to MGS or SPGH. So apart from ATAGS and M777, no other gun has BITE available.

And for gods sake, first learn for what purpose RFI is released before flooding the forum with stupid comments.

 

[Lonewarrior]

And if you go on and see their product line up, almost all of them are either based on, derived from or license built from foreign OEM. In other words, he is just doing what OFB has been doing all these years. Same with others too. But I don't have issue with that too. You have to absorb technology and that is a good way to do that.
My problem is, he keeps on beating his drum more then what he could deliver. He could improve ATAGS only if order is given. Why can't he improve it before hand and place it under test?
He could invest in ATHOS license or ATHOS derived Bharat-52, but would wait for orders to come to invest in ATAGS.

Garuda-105 and MArG-155 BR are both licensed version of Mandus Group's Soft Recoil patent.
ATAGS is designed by DRDO, they just make it.
If we dive deep then Kalyani M4 is licensed production of Paramount Mbombe 4.

But what about ULH and Bharat-52?

 

[kharabela]

And if you go on and see their product line up, almost all of them are either based on, derived from or license built from foreign OEM. In other words, he is just doing what OFB has been doing all these years. Same with others too. But I don't have issue with that too. You have to absorb technology and that is a good way to do that.
My problem is, he keeps on beating his drum more then what he could deliver. He could improve ATAGS only if order is given. Why can't he improve it before hand and place it under test?
He could invest in ATHOS license or ATHOS derived Bharat-52, but would wait for orders to come to invest in ATAGS.

OFB had the monopoly for more than a half century for such a large army . Now comparing them with some yesterday's company is wrong . But still .

Bharat 52 is not based on ATHOS . Its derived from GC 45 which gave NATO forces tough time in past . In bharat 52 The caliber is enhanced from 45 to 52 . Rate of fire considerably increased , on board computer and a auto loader is given . Now if we compare it with ofb which enjoyed monopoly ,we got bofors in Rajiv Gandhi era in 80s . And now improved version is being delivered . 12 have been delivered in 4 years .

 

[Suryavanshi]

But what about ULH and Bharat-52?

They bought a swiss firm name RUAG and had them set up factory in India, after that they had several JVs with Austrian design consultation firms.
No company has the Readymade IP available so they start out with JVs with established firms.
Where the company's strength lie is their ability to locally manufacture the parts and pick up from their experience. Even for Paramount Mbome 4 they have said that they can manufacture 60% of the content if given high enough order.
Even if you started your own Pharma company you do not start making your own medicine, they are made in Baddi HP and only the wrapper belongs to your company.
Being too harsh on the Fella Kalyani here.

 

[Master Chief]

Not too long .. but it will take them 5 +years to manufacture and the army to procure thousands of them .

Yes.. So, both production and procurement of the Towing vehicle and ATAGS can move in parallel, once a satisfactory prototype towing vehicle has passed muster..
We must have the indigenous industry and scale to support a year long medium intensity war against China. After the Ukraine war, western and Indian certainties about all future conventional wars being short and swift are passe.. Else, all IFS Cadre will be dedicated to scraping every foreign military warehouse for shells and spares after the second week of war, at exorbitant rates..

 

[Chinmoy]

But what about ULH and Bharat-52?

Bharat 52. Basically a towed ATMOS version
ULH. Again based on BAE blue print. Remember, the Titanium version again is a hot air balloon till now.

 

[Chinmoy]

OFB had the monopoly for more than a half century for such a large army . Now comparing them with some yesterday's company is wrong . But still .

Bharat 52 is not based on ATHOS . Its derived from GC 45 which gave NATO forces tough time in past . In bharat 52 The caliber is enhanced from 45 to 52 . Rate of fire considerably increased , on board computer and a auto loader is given . Now if we compare it with ofb which enjoyed monopoly ,we got bofors in Rajiv Gandhi era in 80s . And now improved version is being delivered . 12 have been delivered in 4 years .

Correct. I am not deny any of this. My point is, do we need these private companies for just manufacturing we do we expect R&D from them? If they are here just for making JV and doing screwdriver giri, OFB could also have done it or govt could have make OFB do it.

I am comparing only the R&D aspect of private companies with erstwhile DPSUs. Now as AWEIL is claiming to be making a less then 14 ton 52 caliber gun, why can't Kalyani, who have immense metallurgical know how invest in a lighter ATAGS from metallurgy point of view?
If they are saying that they could do it only after orders are placed, then I am sorry, they are going OFB way here. Again I am saying this, I've no problem with them license manufacturing equipment's from other OEM. But they should show some inhouse R&D instead of making claims like we could do this and that.

 

[karn]

Yes.. So, both production and procurement of the Towing vehicle and ATAGS can move in parallel, once a satisfactory prototype towing vehicle has passed muster..
We must have the indigenous industry and scale to support a year long medium intensity war against China. After the Ukraine war, western and Indian certainties about all future conventional wars being short and swift are passe.. Else, all IFS Cadre will be dedicated to scraping every foreign military warehouse for shells and spares after the second week of war, at exorbitant rates..

Yeah .. hence the "preferably" in the rfi .. IMO.
Cause it would be scandal if the IA bought a gun that they don't have a truck to tow in numbers .. CAG and co will have a field day.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Kalyani Group started with procuring off-the-shelf 155/45mm Austrian gun. Eventually, they created a facility in Pune by importing an entire manufacturing line from Ruag, Switzerland which included tools, fixture, furnaces, etc.

Bharat Forge signs MoUs with foreign OEMs for indigenous defence production

On February 4, at the recently concluded DefExpo 2020, Baba Kalyani, Chairman, Kalyani Group, spoke about the company’s journey and transition

forceindia.net

He has not been dishonest about anything unlike those SSS guys. Look at his interviews he has highlighted several problems of that our Industry is facing. He has emphasized several times that he needs orders to go ahead.
It is really unfair for people to ask them to sink all their money into R&D with import loving officers at the helm that want no less than Starships.
For fucks sake if America has the same attitude as us guys they would loose world war 1. We have the luxury of fleecing the Tax kitty for funds in times of war and several Vendors that are ready to supply. The Americans had no who could supply the tech so they went in with whatever they had in hand and came out with cutting edge tech once they were done fighting.