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SwordOfDarkness

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If I have to chose in between MGS and MArG, I'd definitely go for MGS. Why?

Against 25 km of MArG ( range of ULH), I am getting a buffer zone of 20 km with MGS. So when it comes to range, MGS is a go to weapon of choice for any army.
Again if I want to bring down a volley of shells on top of my enemy, I would again prefer MGS over MArG.

But then again, I am not a military planner. They would consider 10 more aspects on top of firing range and raw power before zeroing on any system.
Now coming to why MArG and MGS would compete on same category. Because they are both Mounted Gun System. Just like the 105 mm Garuda. Now whether IA wants a 52 or 39 cal gun depends on the requirement. If IA finds 39 to be more suitable then 52, there should be an existing option for 39 cal gun. Otherwise here we would cry that why IA is looking at a foreign 39 cal gun. Now I am sure that you would again come up with the question that when Kalyani have guns like Bharat-52 available, why Gen Bipin Rawat asked them specifically for mounted 39 cal instead of 52 caliber.

Let me answer this with a practical ongoing scenario. I have posted a RFI for 105 mm MGS above. Now when we talk about 105mm MGS, what is the picture that comes in our mind?

View attachment 182868

Hands down it would be this 99 times out of 100. Kalyani is good at advertising and we have to give them that.

But have you ever thought of any system like this one below?

View attachment 182869

This is the same gun on a different vehicle. In both the case, the gun is by OFB. So the performance of the gun is going to be same in both cases. So lets look at the overall system performance seek by user in RFI.

View attachment 182870

Now look at point (b) (d) (f) (j) (l) (n). Which system you believe excels in those points? Now there are other specs too where a truck mounted 105 gun beats the Go anywhere vehicle system hands down. So this is the option you always want as a user. When you have to order a 155mm MGS, its always better to have two or three different option to try out. If you don't have a 39 caliber gun, how would you know about its pros and cons over a 52 cal?

Mahindra is license manufacturing M777. So they can't offer a MGS system based on M777. But they are always welcome to manufacture a 155/39 gun based on their learning of M777 manufacturing and may be in future we might see one from their end.



No. Let me carry you through the journey of 155mm gun system of IA.
In 1986, we got our first 155 mm Bofors. Before that we had 130 mm and 105 mm guns. Bofors were used extensively in 1999 Kargil and based on what we had learnt from the war, IA came up with FARP program in which it has been decided that we would move to 155/52 instead of going for more 155/39 caliber. But there was no such indigenous program going on at that time. So the usual way out is to test what foreign OEMs had to offer like IAI, Soltam and others. As the whole system is new for us, we can't go on and make a list of requirement. The only requirement to be listed by us was that it should be of 52 cal. We were not sure what to expect in weight category, muzzle velocity, magazine capacity, firing rate, cylinder capacity et.al as 52 cal is totally new for us.

ATHOS satisfied the user at last when DRDO chipped in with ATAGS. Now IA knows what to expect from a 52 cal gun. They had a baseline model in form of ATHOS. So now the PSQR decided for 155/52 caliber gun was primarily based on ATHOS. The reason why IA stuck with 14 ton weight category. But with ATAGS evolving with time, the PSQR got change which accommodated ATAGS much better then before.
Didnt understand a lot of this :/


If I have to chose in between MGS and MArG, I'd definitely go for MGS. Why?

Against 25 km of MArG ( range of ULH), I am getting a buffer zone of 20 km with MGS. So when it comes to range, MGS is a go to weapon of choice for any army.
Again if I want to bring down a volley of shells on top of my enemy, I would again prefer MGS over MArG.

But then again, I am not a military planner. They would consider 10 more aspects on top of firing range and raw power before zeroing on any system.
Now coming to why MArG and MGS would compete on same category. Because they are both Mounted Gun System. Just like the 105 mm Garuda. Now whether IA wants a 52 or 39 cal gun depends on the requirement. If IA finds 39 to be more suitable then 52, there should be an existing option for 39 cal gun. Otherwise here we would cry that why IA is looking at a foreign 39 cal gun. Now I am sure that you would again come up with the question that when Kalyani have guns like Bharat-52 available, why Gen Bipin Rawat asked them specifically for mounted 39 cal instead of 52 caliber.
MArG is not a mounted system, its a towed system, capable of being carried by heavy helicopters. MGS is a mounted gun system, with truck chassis. Both are in different categories.

Didnt get range comparison either, MGS is just MArG on a truck with slight modifications. Range will be equivalent.

Let me answer this with a practical ongoing scenario. I have posted a RFI for 105 mm MGS above. Now when we talk about 105mm MGS, what is the picture that comes in our mind?

View attachment 182868

Hands down it would be this 99 times out of 100. Kalyani is good at advertising and we have to give them that.

But have you ever thought of any system like this one below?

View attachment 182869

This is the same gun on a different vehicle. In both the case, the gun is by OFB. So the performance of the gun is going to be same in both cases. So lets look at the overall system performance seek by user in RFI.

View attachment 182870

Now look at point (b) (d) (f) (j) (l) (n). Which system you believe excels in those points? Now there are other specs too where a truck mounted 105 gun beats the Go anywhere vehicle system hands down. So this is the option you always want as a user. When you have to order a 155mm MGS, its always better to have two or three different option to try out. If you don't have a 39 caliber gun, how would you know about its pros and cons over a 52 cal?
Didnt get the point of the whole analysis here, could you explain again? All I got was that you are maybe saying the truck mounted 105 mm has more mobility and should be favoured over Go anywhere vehicle mounted version.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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None as of now. But Westland ASaC7 do have a side mounted dome which could be moved down.

View attachment 182950

View attachment 182951

Challenge in my suggestion would be to accommodate the operation crew inside.
I would prefer external only, and the suggested placement doesnt seem too bad. If we try to squeeze inside, it will displace crew and fuel, both of which are really important for awacs role.
 

Chinmoy

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Didnt understand a lot of this :/
Take it like this. You have a light SMG firing 9/19 parabellum which you could conceal and take anywhere. But while firing it from 100 mtr, you yourself come in range of enemy fire. Now you have another option of having an AR firing 556 with 300 mtr range and Battle rifle firing 762 with 500 mtr range. Now depending on your need, you could choose any one of this system. But imagine a scenario where you have only SMG.

MArG is not a mounted system, its a towed system, capable of being carried by heavy helicopters. MGS is a mounted gun system, with truck chassis. Both are in different categories.

Didnt get range comparison either, MGS is just MArG on a truck with slight modifications. Range will be equivalent.
MArG-BR is 155/39 caliber mounted system and MaRG-ER is 155/52 caliber towed system. Baba for you.

Didnt get the point of the whole analysis here, could you explain again? All I got was that you are maybe saying the truck mounted 105 mm has more mobility and should be favoured over Go anywhere vehicle mounted version.
I am not saying that Truck mounted 105 mm is better then Humvee or go anywhere mounted system. I am only saying that, having the capability to mount a single system in two different class vehicle gives the user a option to choose. Now if they have a requirement of lets say 100 such system, they have the option to choose anyone as per their need or even better, they could have a mix of both system. That would give them much more flexibility in deployment strategy.
 

Chinmoy

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I would prefer external only, and the suggested placement doesnt seem too bad. If we try to squeeze inside, it will displace crew and fuel, both of which are really important for awacs role.
IMO, it is bad. That configuration would make the dome more susceptible to crash and damage during hard landing scenario.
But every design have its pros and cons. Let designers decide on it.
 

The Shrike

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Anyone forsaw the sudden rise of adanis in the defense sector, like we never heard much about them. Most of their offerings are still jv, any idea if they will come to forefront in future and offer their own designed products like tata, Mahindra and kalyanis.
Isn't it on the back of acquisitions? IIRC the bought Alfa Design a couple of years - that company was started by retired armed forces office, had to sell after a couple of bad years.
 

Arihant Roy

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Go through this video.


Watch from 2:20 to 2:35.

The scientific inadvertently reveals the true range. He was about to tell 7 but quickly changed to 500.

So the 5 ton Pralay has a max range of either 700 or 750 km. The scientific says it's a 3 stage solid powered missile with a 700 kg warhead. The solid rocket motor is dual pulse and that accounts for two stages.

What's the 3rd stage? So the portion of missile from warhead bay till the tip forms another stage and is powered in the terminal phase which will also enable it to maneuver in three dimensional space and make small corrections for more accuracy .

The scientist says the 3 stage solid propulsion makes the missile even more accurate and quotes a CEP of 10 metre. Pralay has a MMW seeker in the nose which becomes active when the missile is 4 kms away from the target.

I strongly believe Pralay has a sub 5 m CEP and the W band seeker range will increase from the present 4 km to more as we mature this tech.

If fitted with a X band mono pulse imaging seeker like Brahmos , Pralay can be used to target moving maritime targets. Then a smaller 300-350 kg warhead will also suffice and the range will be 700+ km.
 

WarmongerLSK

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Go through this video.


Watch from 2:20 to 2:35.

The scientific inadvertently reveals the true range. He was about to tell 7 but quickly changed to 500.

So the 5 ton Pralay has a max range of either 700 or 750 km. The scientific says it's a 3 stage solid powered missile with a 700 kg warhead. The solid rocket motor is dual pulse and that accounts for two stages.

What's the 3rd stage? So the portion of missile from warhead bay till the tip forms another stage and is powered in the terminal phase which will also enable it to maneuver in three dimensional space and make small corrections for more accuracy .

The scientist says the 3 stage solid propulsion makes the missile even more accurate and quotes a CEP of 10 metre. Pralay has a MMW seeker in the nose which becomes active when the missile is 4 kms away from the target.

I strongly believe Pralay has a sub 5 m CEP and the W band seeker range will increase from the present 4 km to more as we mature this tech.

If fitted with a X band mono pulse imaging seeker like Brahmos , Pralay can be used to target moving maritime targets. Then a smaller 300-350 kg warhead will also suffice and the range will be 700+ km.
Or just a slip of the tongue, he was like that throughout the video.
 

Jambudweepa

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News from june Came to know about it for 1st time from india today article . So sharing .


Odisha based #Startup 'BON V Technology' to present its AI-powered electric aircraft at Europe's largest tech & startup event 'Viva Tech'. The aircraft can carry upto 200kg cargo to more than 40km ensuring a sustainable & smart mode of transportation .



successfully demonstrated capability at 6500 feet high altitude in the forward areas of Eastern areas of Arunachal Pradesh


FetY0RQaUAULGmg.jpeg
 

Arihant Roy

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Or just a slip of the tongue, he was like that throughout the video.
Drdo is in the habit of understating the ranges of most missiles .

Now coming to the most important part. Pralay has been derived from Shaurya. It's a newer improved Shaurya with a fully composite rocket motor , newer solid propellants and minus the booster.

Shaurya weighs 6+ tons, likely around 6.3 t. Has a 1750 km range with a 150-200 kg warhead. Pralay tips the scale at 5 tons and came almost 13 years after it.

So even if that was a slip of the tongue , Pralay has a range much higher than 500 km.


The two decade old Dhanush or Prithvi-3 has a max range of 600 km and weighs 5.6 tons. Now make your own assumptions.


PS- If you really believe that Pralay max es out at 500 km, then you are also welcome to believe in Paki claims of Abadeel being Mirved.
 

Arjun Mk1A

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What will be composition of India's Rocket Force?

1. Pinaka MKI, MKII, MKIII - 38 Km to 90 Km.
2. Smerch - 90 Km
Now the products look confusing.
3. Prahaar - 150km
4. Pranash - 200km
5. Pralay - 150-500 Km

If Pralay is the upgradation of No.3 and No.4. Then the only grey area is 90km - 150 km in Rocket artillery.
Currently there is a development of 120 km Guided missile for Pinaka. Then the grey area will be 120-150 km.
If this grey area is eliminated. Our rocket force will be in following composition.

1. Pinaka
2. Smerch
3. Pralay Family.
 

Love Charger

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absolutely knew these games were going to begin as soon as the negative import list was announced

Too many stand to lose too much should India go the US way and procure 95% of its military system from domestic companies


Notice today the Indian army COAS on a trip to France was shown around a Nexter Caesar just as the DRDO-Kaylani MGS is unveiled. The game never ends

Next we will hear that the 8x8 DRDO MGS isn’t suitable because of strategic mobility concerns and they need the 6X6 Caesar option. Watch.
(,a brf user on Indian army delay tactics )
@vishnugupt. Ji , atags is being arjuned right before us .
Woe to us
 

Arihant Roy

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Range of the missile depends on payload it's carrying . Above figure shows range vs payload of shaurya missile.
If the missile flies a purely ballistic trajectory or some variations thereof and then release the RV, the ultimate range will depend on the RV mass. Lower the weight, higher will be the corresponding range. There's an equation for it.

And Mr Vishwakarma is an authority on this.
He predicted the first stage of Shaurya, ie the booster to weigh 1.3 tons. This was way back in 2009. And Shaurya weighs around 6.2-6.3 tons.

Subtract the booster mass , 1.3 tons and you will get 5 tons which is exactly the weight of Pralay. Now Shaurya used maraging steel in its second stage. Pralay uses a filament woven composite body. Plus new gen propellants with a higher propellant loading .

It's range is way beyond 500 km.
 

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