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MonaLazy

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Probably because we lack a common aircraft for all these kinds of projects.

I think once tata starts manufacturing c295 we may utilise that for multiple projects maritime patrol like p8i , ew warfare , small tanker etc.
C 295 will be ideal for anti submarine role
There are some glaring disadvantages to using it for maritime patroling, because it was not designed to cover long distances fast while being fuel efficient. Commercial long haul airliner (low fuel consuming turbofan) is the best platform for MPA conversion.

C-295 is designed as a medium tactical airlifter- meant to take off/land on short badly prepared runways. It's chonky landing gear housing should give an idea of the environment it feels most at home in:


Heavy MLG translating into less payload & range- is totally avoidable for planes that are based at INS Rajali with awesome infrastructure.

Secondly, C295 is a turboprop. That has speed & range disadvantages (both crucial for scanning the vast IOR) in the MPA role:

Shorter flights are more efficient in turboprops and longer flights more efficient in turbofans. Most turboprops are limited to Mach 0.5 to 0.6, and altitudes in the 35,000 foot range, with a handful of turboprops reaching the Mach 0.7 and 40,000 feet. Turboprops are better at lower altitudes and speeds, turbofans at higher altitudes and speeds.

P8I is based on the commercial airliner Boeing 737. The low speed will impact how much time you take to declare a certain ocean search area free of Chinese subs or indeed how soon you can scan and hunt them down. C295 has much lesser range than the 737, it is much smaller also.

It can be done but is far from ideal. Just a look at their ferry range (one among many other parameters):

ERJ-145 3,700 kms (Netra AEW&CS)
C295 1,555 kms
P8A 8,300 kms

 

Covfefe

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There are some glaring disadvantages to using it for maritime patroling, because it was not designed to cover long distances fast while being fuel efficient. Commercial long haul airliner (low fuel consuming turbofan) is the best platform for MPA conversion.

C-295 is designed as a medium tactical airlifter- meant to take off/land on short badly prepared runways. It's chonky landing gear housing should give an idea of the environment it feels most at home in:


Heavy MLG translating into less payload & range- is totally avoidable for planes that are based at INS Rajali with awesome infrastructure.

Secondly, C295 is a turboprop. That has speed & range disadvantages (both crucial for scanning the vast IOR) in the MPA role:

Shorter flights are more efficient in turboprops and longer flights more efficient in turbofans. Most turboprops are limited to Mach 0.5 to 0.6, and altitudes in the 35,000 foot range, with a handful of turboprops reaching the Mach 0.7 and 40,000 feet. Turboprops are better at lower altitudes and speeds, turbofans at higher altitudes and speeds.

P8I is based on the commercial airliner Boeing 737. The low speed will impact how much time you take to declare a certain ocean search area free of Chinese subs or indeed how soon you can scan and hunt them down. C295 has much lesser range than the 737, it is much smaller also.

It can be done but is far from ideal. Just a look at their ferry range (one among many other parameters):

ERJ-145 3,700 kms (Netra AEW&CS)
C295 1,555 kms
P8A 8,300 kms

Also, the electrical power availability from turboprops vs the power from turbofans. Sensor suite for a maritime patrol aircraft will demand more power(that's better anyday), that would extrapolate to some sort of cut down on capabilities. P8s and Migs shouldn't have been scrapped or delayed imo. Igla, kamov226 for army and airforce was bs deal from the beginning- good that they're gone now
 

not so dravidian

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My opinion: not so satisfactory.

MOD Babu/vishwaguru/Gentails shud give on how r the going to manage the gap.

Frankly speaking om happy deals such as NUH for coast gaurd and igla S r cancelled.

However now we r stuck in a race b/w TIME VS MONEY

We have wasted the former and it's prohibitive to waste it anymore.
 

MonaLazy

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P8s and Migs shouldn't have been scrapped or delayed imo
We can buy some Boeing 787-9s with 14010 km range- it offers a huge range and fuel efficiency being the latest tech from the giant powerhouse of Boeing & GE, convert that for very long-range MPA role with our own sensors with OEM support. Like Netra on Embraer ERJ-145.

Mig-29s got the axe I think because of general unhappiness with their reliability- the IN is making no bones about that fact & IAF experience should not be too far off. Besides, less Mig-29s means more Mk2/Rafale & with the arrival of UCAVs & defensive systems like S-400 the need for flying missions like BARCAPs with fighter planes has gone down. Missiles loose part of their shelf life after returning even unused from a sortie, so an AD net is a better approach to the Swift Retreat problem- especially when you can monitor what they are upto from many 00s of kms away.

Message to Russia- we will not buy unreliable equipment from you, even if it is cheap (Rafale over Mig-29) but we will buy your best (S-400) even in the face of Uncle Sam's CAATSA- that's a very confident pose methinks devoid of erstwhile servility!

TIME VS MONEY

We have wasted the former and it's prohibitive to waste it anymore.
Going by the number of missile tests DRDO is doing these days- it looks like the initial decades of IGMDP have more than paid off. This could be the start of another such revolution- only this time it won't take as long if we are smarter to diversify our suppliers (Russia/US/Europe/Israel/France/SoKo/Japan/even Turkey..) basket so if one supplier acts up there are other options.
 
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Covfefe

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We can buy some Boeing 787-9s with 14010 km range- it offers a huge range and fuel efficiency being the latest tech from the giant powerhouse of Boeing & GE, convert that for very long-range MPA role with our own sensors with OEM support. Like Netra on Embraer ERJ-145.
Do we have the capability to develop and integrate such a sensor suite that could rival P8🤔? Netra 1 was ordered and since then the second variant has been an in-development phenomenon, DRDO and their labs have a habit of overcommitting and underdelivering- hence the trust deficit from the forces. Chinese subs won't wait for a decade before making incursions into the IOR
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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It can be done by other means...we are already stuck with 12 p8 for nxt 30 years(means 30 more years of US dependence) buying more of them will not hurt our sovereignty in any way but not buying means leaving gaps in capabilities that cant be fulfilled by anything anytime soon..specially now when chinese presence in IOR is ever increasing.
If govt wants show seriousness then they should throw a few billions and develop an aircraft that can safely replace these.
I think putting the deal for 6 additional P8I makes complete sense, the price of P8I has ballooned like anything since the first 8 P8I were acquired, the cost was $262.5 million per plane, now the recent FMS price is projected at $403 million per plane.
Thats ridiculous to say the least.
Also P8I means we are only allowed to use Mk54 LWT and Harpoons which are not exactly cutting-edge in today's day and age.

Frankly, 3-4 C-295 MPA can be acquired for the price of 1 P8I Neptune and Indian Navy can have a big fleet of C-295 MPA similar to JMSDF C-2 fleet and surveillance duties can be taken care of by Sea Guardian drones.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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We can buy some Boeing 787-9s with 14010 km range- it offers a huge range and fuel efficiency being the latest tech from the giant powerhouse of Boeing & GE, convert that for very long-range MPA role with our own sensors with OEM support. Like Netra on Embraer ERJ-145.

Mig-29s got the axe I think because of general unhappiness with their reliability- the IN is making no bones about that fact & IAF experience should not be too far off. Besides, less Mig-29s means more Mk2/Rafale & with the arrival of UCAVs & defensive systems like S-400 the need for flying missions like BARCAPs with fighter planes has gone down. Missiles loose part of their shelf life after returning even unused from a sortie, so an AD net is a better approach to the Swift Retreat problem- especially when you can monitor what they are upto from many 00s of kms away.

Message to Russia- we will not buy unreliable equipment from you, even if it is cheap (Rafale over Mig-29) but we will buy your best (S-400) even in the face of Uncle Sam's CAATSA- that's a very confident pose methinks devoid of erstwhile servility!



Going by the number of missile tests DRDO is doing these days- it looks like the initial decades of IGMDP have more than paid off. This could be the start of another such revolution- only this time it won't take as long if we are smarter to diversify our suppliers (Russia/US/Europe/Israel/France/SoKo/Japan/even Turkey..) basket so if one supplier acts up there are other options.
Dude a 787-9 costs about $250 million and once you integrate a sensor suite equivalent to what is onboard the P8I Neptune it would easily be an $700-800 million aircraft, possibly even $1 billion.
This is exactly the reason why the P8 platform was built on a 737-800 NG platform and not on a 777 or 787.
 

MonaLazy

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Do we have the capability to develop and integrate such a sensor suite that could rival P8🤔? Netra 1 was ordered and since then the second variant has been an in-development phenomenon, DRDO and their labs have a habit of overcommitting and underdelivering- hence the trust deficit from the forces. Chinese subs won't wait for a decade before making incursions into the IOR
True that. But forces are largely to blame for that- if DRDO says no to their physics-defying SQRs they will not land the project in the first place, then how will they get any budget or even justify their existence- think of it like the marketing department that must land new business at all costs. Hopefully now with a menacing China and blacklisting of outright imports- the forces will be forced (love the pun!) to look at domestic options and refine them. Since China won't wait- there won't be decades-long summer, winter, monsoon, desert, Himalaya trials or even unrealistic SQRs.

If DRDO can't deliver then approach Israelis like for Phalcon AWACs.


Dude a 787-9 costs about $250 million and once you integrate a sensor suite equivalent to what is onboard the P8I Neptune it would easily be an $700-800 million aircraft, possibly even $1 billion.
This is exactly the reason why the P8 platform was built on a 737-800 NG platform and not on a 777 or 787.
F35 costs were also high initially and then dropped. Same magic will happen here- a lot of dreamliners are headed for Indian shores. As for the sensor costs- not aware of the details but is it likely to have occured because of vendor lock in? If we approach others maybe we can get 90% capability at 60% cost?
 

flanker99

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I think putting the deal for 6 additional P8I makes complete sense, the price of P8I has ballooned like anything since the first 8 P8I were acquired, the cost was $262.5 million per plane, now the recent FMS price is projected at $403 million per plane.
Thats ridiculous to say the least.
Also P8I means we are only allowed to use Mk54 LWT and Harpoons which are not exactly cutting-edge in today's day and age.

Frankly, 3-4 C-295 MPA can be acquired for the price of 1 P8I Neptune and Indian Navy can have a big fleet of C-295 MPA similar to JMSDF C-2 fleet and surveillance duties can be taken care of by Sea Guardian drones.
I agree about the price point but u cant replace 1 orange with 4 grapes both are different.
A c295 cannot be as capable as a p8 because of volume,power,loiter time constraints etc not to mention it will take considerable amount of time to get a mpa going..money saved now can mean a sub who slipped off of our surveillance later
 

MonaLazy

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A c295 it will take considerable amount of time to get a mpa going

There's one already- the Persuader variant. But it will never be as effective as the P8I because of reasons mentioned in an earlier post.


 

Aditya Ballal

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Digging in got me to this:

View attachment 132148



that works out to to be $163.15M per 787-9.

As for the 737-800, it is no longer built for passenger airlines- that probably means it is off the list of choices.

View attachment 132150

~$100M for a theoretically new 737-800 vs $160M for a brand new 787-9. Take your pick!

You do know how much extra one would have to pay for additional costs if a 787 Class of Aircraft is chosen for such a role, extra GSE, more real estate to park these aircraft, additional maintenance costs versus a 737 sized aircraft. Also your comparison of the Vistara 789 which is sold at a lower realistic commercial price versus the highest possible price of a 737 is wrong.
There’s a reason such sized aircraft are left for A2A Refuelling, AWACS(where that level of power consumption and internal real estate is required) and not for a maritime patrol aircraft, also availability of narrow body aircraft are much greater than wide body aircraft, hence they’re always ready for action whereas a wide body aircraft will need greater amounts of nearly every factor from fuel, crew, gse, maintenance facilities etc.
Especially when such a hypothetical project does not even have the backing of the country/countries of origin for developing their subsystems and modifications(weapons bay, sensor certification, aerodynamic changes due to external sensors, etc).
 
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MonaLazy

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787-9 costs about $250 million
P8 platform was built on a 737-800 NG
Airlines always negotiate deep discounts from that indicated price. As for the 737-800 that aircraft is no longer being built for passenger airlines anymore unsure if we could just buy it and modify for MPA needs.

additional costs
787-9 vs 737-800 was only for academic pleasure since you can't order any 737-800 since 2019 & I realised that calculation was wrong.

That "hypothetical backing of countries of origin" is the exact proverbial back of the camel we are trying to break- with atmanirbharta. We should be free to choose our air platforms and our sensors. As for the rest of your concerns about space and equipment - INS Rajali is custom designed for IN- can be reworked to anything. For fuel efficiency and range there is no competition at all for this aircraft.

In any case, not pushing this exact model- only outlining one of the options, so there is no need to get so hung up on it. We can look at other turbofans which are cheaper, but they are better over a turboprop C295 anyday for a VVLR MPA and will be better able to fill the P8Is shoes. That's the point I'm trying to make.
 
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Aditya Ballal

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Airlines always negotiate deep discounts from that indicated price. As for the 737-800 that aircraft is no longer being built for passenger airlines anymore unsure if we could just buy it and modify for MPA needs.



787-9 vs 737-800 was only for academic pleasure since you can't order any 737-800 since 2019 & I realised that calculation was wrong.

That "hypothetical backing of countries of origin" is the exact proverbial back of the camel we are trying to break- with atmanirbharta. We should be free to choose our air platforms and our sensors. As for the rest of your concerns about space and equipment - INS Rajali is custom designed for IN- can be reworked to anything. For fuel efficiency and range there is no competition at all for this aircraft.

In any case, not pushing this exact model- only outlining one of the options, so there is no need to get so hung up on it. We can look at other turbofans which are cheaper, but they are better over a turboprop C295 anyday for a VVLR MPA and will be better able to fill the P8Is shoes. That's the point I'm trying to make.
The 737 is still being produced for military customers, spares aren’t really a problem as 737 MAX family still has a lot of commonality with the 737 NG Family.
Unfortunately we don’t live in such a perfect world where we can choose whatever we want and how we want it without paying a pound of flesh.
Case in point how Boeing still refuses to certify IAI’s 767 A2A Tanker conversion since it hurts their KC 46 sales.
Still need to see how CABS is going to cooperate with Airbus for the a320 based AWACS and the future a330 one as it will require greater cooperation with the OEM. We have to see in how many platforms we can attempt Atmanirbharta without compromising any capabilities.
 

MonaLazy

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Unfortunately we don’t live in such a perfect world where we can choose whatever we want and how we want it without paying a pound of flesh.
When you have a reputation for walking away from a bad deal- the vendors stop taking you for granted.

When you are on track to be the 3rd largest economy on the face of the planet by 2030- you can dangle a large enough carrot so competing OEMs duke it out for a size of the pie.

As a nation, we only need to keep pushing.
 

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