DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Kalkioftoday]

No this is a Soviet sub , I forgot the name

It's an older Borei class SSBN which was rejected for the newer design. It'll be the base design for S5.

 

[Lonewolf]

It's an older Borei class SSBN which was rejected for the newer design. It'll be the base design for S5.

Who said that ?

 

[Lonewolf]

It's an older Borei class SSBN which was rejected for the newer design. It'll be the base design for S5.

Totally different design

 

[not so dravidian]

It's an older Borei class SSBN which was rejected for the newer design. It'll be the base design for S5.

Yea, i believe the IPR is with us but other help, I think this is mostly with Russian help

 

[not so dravidian]

View attachment 130079

Totally different design

Yep as @Kalkioftoday said, base design with borei

 

[Lonewolf]

Yep as @Kalkioftoday said, base design with borei

Dude ,if both have different hydrodynamics totally ,then wtf is base design , that means everyone copies , right ?

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Yea, i believe the IPR is with us but other help, I think this is mostly with Russian help

Yes, it's always have been the russians with anything related to Nuke, be it submarine or reactor or the infrastructure for it. And we pay them billions for these via Akula SSN leasing scheme. I remember very well, when some twitter fanboys heckling veteran Captain DK sharma who was a former spokesperson for navy for saying that we are still very much dependent on russia for development of SSBN. Those fanboys were very much out of control that day and i was one of them. Captain DK Sharma couldn't reveal the details when asked that day why we are dependent but years later i understood. And yes IPR is with us.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Dude ,if both have different hydrodynamics totally ,then wtf is base design , that means everyone copies , right ?

Just to supplement.
The S5 is reported to be similar to the American Ohio-class ballistic missile submarines.
Source: It's a 2019 writeup, so might be off on certain parameters. The point reproduced above is at the fag end of the article.

The S5 SSBN: 30 Key Facts

When India’s Vice President, Venkaiah Naidu visited the Naval Science and Technology Laboratory, he formally handed over the “Sahayak”, a…

adreesh-ghoshal.medium.com

 

[Varoon2]

. BTW Arihant and S5 class are both Russian design, not ours.

There were articles in the media where the Indian scientist Kakodkar and others did mention that the Russians consulted on most features of the Arihant submarine, but that the end product is certainly Indian.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

There were articles in the media where the Indian scientist Kakodkar and others did mention that the Russians consulted on most features of the Arihant submarine, but that the end product is certainly Indian.

Ofcourse the end product is ours and we own the IPR. But the thing is, the base for these designs are always have been the russian design, we just modified and miniaturize them for our specific need. If we had designed an SSBN entirely on our own without any outside help than believe me we would've already designed a conventional SSK, instead of begging others for TOT.

 

[India Super Power]

Will it be good to scrap p75i and build 6 advanced scoreless wrt requirements of Navy
3 by mazagaon 3 by private(l and t)

 

[Dessert Storm]

@Lonewolf @Kalkioftoday @Varoon2 @not so dravidian and other members on this specific topic of design, IPR... of S5
On the ATV project- Salient points
1. the participation of the private sector, Indian industry, MSMEs (micro, small and medium enterprises) and a host of Indian high-tech labs and institutions.
2. we did not want to reinvent the wheel, so we decided that we would buy the design from an international agency and proceed with that.
3. we primarily wanted the ‘know how’ and the ‘know why’ of the design.
4. Our supplier was very kind—though we paid a very tidy sum for it, we got the normatives(IP). The advantage was that with these, we could alter the design to our requirements or update it.
5. With this we had made designs for an SSBN. We have also been quite successful in [modifying] the design for an SSN (non-ballistic nuclear submarine). Though we didn’t have the build parameters for this, we are quite happy with [our design].
6. hope the conventional submarine builders—MDL (Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders) for the Russian and the French submarines—have collected [enough technical information for the job]. We were passing on [this information] to them, so they must have set up normative programmes.
7. In fact, there are only two companies in the country—MDL and L&T (Larsen & Toubro)—which are capable of building submarines. L&T has 20-25 years of experience in ship building, and MDL has 40 years. We should be able to [develop future submarine programmes] ourselves.
8. We are not designing a submarine de-novo—we are just developing and indigenously building with outside agencies. In the future we won’t even have to [rely on outside agencies].
9.
Q. So the navy has a requirement for six SSNs—nuclear powered attack submarines?

A. There is no help required from anybody whatsoever for this. The country can manage it.
10. Also, the ATV programme was not only about building the submarine—it was also about building nuclear weapons. Those nuclear weapons are 100 per cent indigenous. We take credit for that—we did it ourselves.
Source:

The ATV project was Atmanirbhar since its inception: Vice Admiral PC Bhasin (retd)

Vice Admiral P.C. Bhasin (retd) explains how the Advanced Technology Vessel programme led to the construction of India’s first indigenous nuclear submarine

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Karthi]

Ofcourse the end product is ours and we own the IPR. But the thing is, the base for these designs are always have been the russian design, we just modified and miniaturize them for our specific need. If we had designed an SSBN entirely on our own without any outside help than believe me we would've already designed a conventional SSK, instead of begging others for TOT.

That's a rude statement. There is nothing wrong in buying a design , design is time consuming process , we can skip that. Just a design means nothing. Design is just the beginning , manufacturing and manufacturing process & technologies matter's , integration of the components , project management and monitoring etc are equally important . Developing technologies for each and every component , testing and qualifying etc are very very important . We bought a design that doesn't mean everything. And we are looking for a JV for SSNs still nothing wrong here , our technology , experience are mating with other world class entity will bring us more exposure and experience . That's what China doesn't have. We can make a world class sub with our technology but our Navy want something unique best in class tech that's why they are looking for a JV. One major problem in SSN JV is incorporating Indian tech and ToT for the partners tech that's why it's delaying and typical Indian red tape culture.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Will it be good to scrap p75i and build 6 advanced scoreless wrt requirements of Navy
3 by mazagaon 3 by private(l and t)

You mean Scorepene? Oh, we would've love to do that but the problem is we didn't get all the know why of submarine design and development from the Scorpene deal and that's why this P75i. We didn't want to go in Korean way to do the R&D for the rest from limited know how instead we are running with a begging bowl

 

[Lonewolf]

@Lonewolf @Kalkioftoday @Varoon2 @not so dravidian and other members on this specific topic of design, IPR... of S5
On the ATV project- Salient points
1. the participation of the private sector, Indian industry, MSMEs (micro, small and medium enterprises) and a host of Indian high-tech labs and institutions.
2. we did not want to reinvent the wheel, so we decided that we would buy the design from an international agency and proceed with that.
3. we primarily wanted the ‘know how’ and the ‘know why’ of the design.
4. Our supplier was very kind—though we paid a very tidy sum for it, we got the normatives(IP). The advantage was that with these, we could alter the design to our requirements or update it.
5. With this we had made designs for an SSBN. We have also been quite successful in [modifying] the design for an SSN (non-ballistic nuclear submarine). Though we didn’t have the build parameters for this, we are quite happy with [our design].
6. hope the conventional submarine builders—MDL (Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders) for the Russian and the French submarines—have collected [enough technical information for the job]. We were passing on [this information] to them, so they must have set up normative programmes.
7. In fact, there are only two companies in the country—MDL and L&T (Larsen & Toubro)—which are capable of building submarines. L&T has 20-25 years of experience in ship building, and MDL has 40 years. We should be able to [develop future submarine programmes] ourselves.
8. We are not designing a submarine de-novo—we are just developing and indigenously building with outside agencies. In the future we won’t even have to [rely on outside agencies].
9.
Q. So the navy has a requirement for six SSNs—nuclear powered attack submarines?

A. There is no help required from anybody whatsoever for this. The country can manage it.
10. Also, the ATV programme was not only about building the submarine—it was also about building nuclear weapons. Those nuclear weapons are 100 per cent indigenous. We take credit for that—we did it ourselves.
Source:

The ATV project was Atmanirbhar since its inception: Vice Admiral PC Bhasin (retd)

Vice Admiral P.C. Bhasin (retd) explains how the Advanced Technology Vessel programme led to the construction of India’s first indigenous nuclear submarine

www.indiatoday.in

So SSN is design is ready

 

[Kalkioftoday]

That's a rude statement. There is nothing wrong in buying a design , design is time consuming process , we can skip that. Just a design means nothing. Design is just the beginning , manufacturing and manufacturing process & technologies matter's , integration of the components , project management and monitoring etc are equally important . Developing technologies for each and every component , testing and qualifying etc are very very important . We bought a design that doesn't mean everything. And we are looking for a JV for SSNs still nothing wrong here , our technology , experience are mating with other world class entity will bring us more exposure and experience . That's what China doesn't have. We can make a world class sub with our technology but our Navy want something unique best in class tech that's why they are looking for a JV. One major problem in SSN JV is incorporating Indian tech and ToT for the partners tech that's why it's delaying and typical Indian red tape culture.

You are getting it wrong buddy. I wasn't rude about our SSBN or SSN deal with Russia, actually i am happy for it. But what i hated is our stupidity in building SSKs. Once we and South korean were same place in SSK arena, license producing foreign subs with limited know how, south koreans were smart and they invested further to expand that limited know how to full know how, but on the way we took a complete U turn and now this P75 and P75i fiasco and all.

 

[Lonewolf]

You are getting it wrong buddy. I wasn't rude about our SSBN or SSN deal with Russia, actually i am happy for it. But what i hated is our stupidity in building SSKs. Once we and South korean were same place in SSK arena, license producing foreign subs with limited know how, south koreans were smart and they invested further to expand that limited know how to full know how, but on the way we took a complete U turn and now this P75 and P75i fiasco and all.

Scorpene data leak was a factor too , and before that we weren't at that level , soko are leader in shipbuilding

 

[Dessert Storm]

So SSN is design is ready

The Vice Admiral clearly says it is. Karthi in his post says this

We can make a world class sub with our technology but our Navy want something unique best in class tech that's why they are looking for a JV.

 

[Lonewolf]

The Vice Admiral clearly says it is. Karthi in his post says this

@Karthi what do u think , is our SSN ready or not ?

 

[IndianHawk]

@Karthi what do u think , is our SSN ready or not ?

SSN design should be ready. Original arihant was supposed to be SSN. After 1998 nuclear weapons test we converted it to SSBN design. Hence arihant was stuck at 6000 tons only.

So SSN design work is rather old afaik .

Now ofcourse it needs tweak to suit modern requirements but should be ready by all accounts. Sources say first SSN might be in water before first S5 SSBN.