DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
NEZ is safely taken at 1/3rd of full range, but things changes with Dual Pulse Rocket Motor and Throttable Ramjet like Astra Mk. 2 and SFDR. The NEZ is comparatively on the higher side as opposed to solid rocket motor AAM with similar range.
Any plans by DRDO or IAF to beat PL15 and PL21 combo
 

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
Pl 21 is sfdr vs Astra mk3 aka sfdr

Pl 15 is comparable to Astra mk2
In terms of range how exactly do they compare??
Last I knew Astra mk2 was 160km and PL15 was 200km for non export version. The extra 40km range itself will make adversary which is IAF on its toes and make life hard for pilots. An equivalent should be there to level the playing field. Any chances of dual pulse Astra to have ~200km range. US itself is in panic with each new system coming in China which outmatches their equivalent in US and is now hurrying to level the field.
Any detail on anti AWACS role missile like this chinese one, sfdr is not it's equivalent exactly:-
images - 2021-11-26T224019.406.jpeg
 

BrigadierRPS

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2021
Messages
143
Likes
1,181
Country flag
US AIM260 JATM is going to use multiple pulse rockets, with electronically controllable burn rod, that is going to be a game changer. While the concept of multiple pulse is not yet tested in india, but electronic burn control rods are under research.
In terms of range how exactly do they compare??
Last I knew Astra mk2 was 160km and PL15 was 200km for non export version. The extra 40km range itself will make adversary which is IAF on its toes and make life hard for pilots. An equivalent should be there to level the playing field. Any chances of dual pulse Astra to have ~200km range. US itself is in panic with each new system coming in China which outmatches their equivalent in US and is now hurrying to level the field.
Any detail on anti AWACS role missile like this chinese one, sfdr is not it's equivalent exactly:-View attachment 121800
 

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
8,395
Likes
33,490
Country flag
In terms of range how exactly do they compare??
Last I knew Astra mk2 was 160km and PL15 was 200km for non export version. The extra 40km range itself will make adversary which is IAF on its toes and make life hard for pilots. An equivalent should be there to level the playing field. Any chances of dual pulse Astra to have ~200km range. US itself is in panic with each new system coming in China which outmatches their equivalent in US and is now hurrying to level the field.
Any detail on anti AWACS role missile like this chinese one, sfdr is not it's equivalent exactly:-View attachment 121800
What jinn technology pl 15 uses that it has 200 km range ??
At what altitude?? What is its effective nez??

Let's not fall for chinese propaganda without looking at scientific principles.
 

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
What jinn technology pl 15 uses that it has 200 km range ??
At what altitude?? What is its effective nez??

Let's not fall for chinese propaganda without looking at scientific principles.
Pl15 is longer and bigger in diameter than AIM 120D and had 2 pulse rocket propulsion. By the way range of AIM 120D is agreed at ~160km. Make of it what you want but logic simply dictates that it could have easily 200km range or above. On the rocket propulsion side, chinese simply have done their work. Export version was advertised at 145km.
Not everything is chinese propaganda, they have simply accelerated their R&D to a very high level and are continuing to do so and at the rate at which they are inducting equipments, they will soon be a force only next to US in the near term.
We can either live in denial or face the truth and tackle it. I'd prefer the second way and not the ostrich one.
Also pakis use jinn tech, not chinese😉
 

Shashank Nayak

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
4,004
Likes
13,795
Country flag
Pl15 is longer and bigger in diameter than AIM 120D and had 2 pulse rocket propulsion. By the way range of AIM 120D is agreed at ~160km. Make of it what you want but logic simply dictates that it could have easily 200km range or above. On the rocket propulsion side, chinese simply have done their work. Export version was advertised at 145km.
Not everything is chinese propaganda, they have simply accelerated their R&D to a very high level and are continuing to do so and at the rate at which they are inducting equipments, they will soon be a force only next to US in the near term.
We can either live in denial or face the truth and tackle it. I'd prefer the second way and not the ostrich one.
Also pakis use jinn tech, not chinese😉
But an increase in size will also affect PL 15 maneuverability negatively.. Also, Astra mk2 will be dual pulse.. PL-15 is over 4 meters long.. Its NEZ might be smaller than AIM-120D,
Maybe PL-15 is good enough for Pakistan, as seen from Swift retort, they just fire a large volley of BVR missiles from afar, and just hope that it hits..
 
Last edited:

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
But an increase in size will also affect PL 15 maneuverability negatively.. Also, Astra mk2 will be dual pulse.. PL-15 is over 4 meters long.. Its NEZ might be smaller than AIM-120D,
Maybe PL-15 is good enough for Pakistan, as seen from Swift retort, they just fire a large volley of BVR missiles from afar, and just hope that it hits..
Nah it's just big enough to have very good range for non ramjet missile while having good manoeuvre ability to engage fighters. It's just a tad bit bigger than AIM 120D and not like proper chonky very very long range missiles like R37. Again I will say its about range of Pl15 vs Astra mk2, other than that they are similiar in propulsion.
NEZ of PL 15 at this point will be obviously greater than Astra mk2, and so will be the range at which when fired will achieve a good hit probability than that of Astra mk2.
Let's reverse the situation and assume that Astra has 200km range and the enemy has 160km ones, the pressure faced by enemy pilots would be damning one, that's what we will be facing. On Pakistan, it doesn't really matters until we have longer range missiles as they will be on thier toes, not us. They'll probably be gettin Pl15E with 145 km range.
No matter what, it's not merely a Chinese propaganda, it's a real threat and a very problematic one. Though it's the Pilot who matters the most, having better capability than adversary will make our guys life much easier and who doesn't wants a better system right??

Even the US is migrating to longer range BVR missiles, you can't just brush off range a missile by saying that it won't have impact on the plane which has missiles of shorter range by good margin, 200km vs 160km.
 
Last edited:

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
8,395
Likes
33,490
Country flag
Pl15 is longer and bigger in diameter than AIM 120D and had 2 pulse rocket propulsion. By the way range of AIM 120D is agreed at ~160km. Make of it what you want but logic simply dictates that it could have easily 200km range or above. On the rocket propulsion side, chinese simply have done their work. Export version was advertised at 145km.
Not everything is chinese propaganda, they have simply accelerated their R&D to a very high level and are continuing to do so and at the rate at which they are inducting equipments, they will soon be a force only next to US in the near term.
We can either live in denial or face the truth and tackle it. I'd prefer the second way and not the ostrich one.
Also pakis use jinn tech, not chinese😉
Derby ER and astra mk2 both are dual pulse so how will pl15 have longer range than astra mk2??
 

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
Derby ER and astra mk2 both are dual pulse so how will pl15 have longer range than astra mk2??
Bigger than both in dimensions by a good margin.
It's all about fuel capacity, type of rocket motor/propulsion system Saar. In this case PL15 being the upper dog. Chinese expertise in higher impulse rocket motor also can't be ignored, that's why I won't be surprised if the range is few tens of kms more than 200km.
 
Last edited:

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
8,395
Likes
33,490
Country flag
Bigger than both in dimensions by a good margin.
That bigger dimensions is just chinese inefficiency in designing smaller dual pulse motor.

Israelies have been at it for much longer and Indians have learned from Israelies ( through barak 8 and ngarm program ).

Even new American aim260/ jtm 260 won't be much bigger but will pl15 in every possible way because they can design even smaller motors to utilise multi pulse.

Bigger size just makes a missile much slower and less maneuverable against agile targets like fighter jets.

Even more important in nez because outside of nez fighter jets can dodge any missile easily as missile doesn't have much energy to chase. That's the logic of dual pulse it doesn't actually increase range ( other than propaganda value) but it makes missile more deadly within nez so you need missile to be still as small and light as possible.
 

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
That bigger dimensions is just chinese inefficiency in designing smaller dual pulse motor.

Israelies have been at it for much longer and Indians have learned from Israelies ( through barak 8 and ngarm program ).

Even new American aim260/ jtm 260 won't be much bigger but will pl15 in every possible way because they can design even smaller motors to utilise multi pulse.

Bigger size just makes a missile much slower and less maneuverable against agile targets like fighter jets.

Even more important in nez because outside of nez fighter jets can dodge any missile easily as missile doesn't have much energy to chase. That's the logic of dual pulse it doesn't actually increase range ( other than propaganda value) but it makes missile more deadly within nez so you need missile to be still as small and light as possible.
Hmmm.... To say that chinese dual pulse motor is inefficient in packaging, perhaps, maybe if you can provide a detailed infographic of it's cutaway pic or something which shows its inefficiency in designing a dual pulse rocket motor. On chinese manufacturing less energetic rocket motors than Israelis and Indians, I will say it won't be a fantasy if chinese are better with their vast experience.
Though NEZ is a very important parameter of a BVR missile, the advantage of longer range can't be neglected by the virtue of which enemy aircraft will be forced to remain on defensive even before we can come insider their engagement range, PL 15 has both.

AIM 260 will achieve its range owing to its higher energetic rocket motor and will perhaps either a dual pulse or multi pulse to remain at a good energy state for end game engagement, while having similiar dimensions to AIM 120. In words of USAF, it will be a system which will either match or outmatch the systems such as Pl15. Even US is not in denial about Pl15 threat.
The objective of mutipulse is to make the article remain in favourable energy during flight for effective engagement. We can say multipulse is what makes a longer shot more viable.
Let's leave aim 260 aside, we won't be getting it anytime soon, perhaps never. What about our Astra mk2?? Our counter??
Why do you exactly think that PL15 won't be able to manoeuvre good enough and have longer range despite having the added advantage of better end energy due to dual pulse and added range of longer rocket pulses due to tad bigger sizes than other BVRs. Leave aside so called chinese inefficiency in 2pulse rocket motor designing, which I highly doubt.
Why do you think chinese can't match or outmatch Israelis or Americans?? By the same metric every system or tech which we developed in house which has Israeli analogue is inferior??

Again I will ask, what is our counter to PL15, assuming it's 200km class dual-pulse BVR even if others don't agree. 40km range difference between Astra mk2 is just too much to be ignored and there is no educated analysis,guess or study anywhere which shows that Astra mk2 will indeed match Pl15 in either range or NEZ.
I think we only have SFDR BVR to counter PL15 or say outmatch it, though Pl15 is reality as of now.
 

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
8,395
Likes
33,490
Country flag
Hmmm.... To say that chinese dual pulse motor is inefficient in packaging, perhaps, maybe if you can provide a detailed infographic of it's cutaway pic or something which shows its inefficiency in designing a dual pulse rocket motor. On chinese manufacturing less energetic rocket motors than Israelis and Indians, I will say it won't be a fantasy if chinese are better with their vast experience.
Though NEZ is a very important parameter of a BVR missile, the advantage of longer range can't be neglected by the virtue of which enemy aircraft will be forced to remain on defensive even before we can come insider their engagement range, PL 15 has both.

AIM 260 will achieve its range owing to its higher energetic rocket motor and will perhaps either a dual pulse or multi pulse to remain at a good energy state for end game engagement, while having similiar dimensions to AIM 120. In words of USAF, it will be a system which will either match or outmatch the systems such as Pl15. Even US is not in denial about Pl15 threat.
The objective of mutipulse is to make the article remain in favourable energy during flight for effective engagement. We can say multipulse is what makes a longer shot more viable.
Let's leave aim 260 aside, we won't be getting it anytime soon, perhaps never. What about our Astra mk2?? Our counter??
Why do you exactly think that PL15 won't be able to manoeuvre good enough and have longer range despite having the added advantage of better end energy due to dual pulse and added range of longer rocket pulses due to tad bigger sizes than other BVRs. Leave aside so called chinese inefficiency in 2pulse rocket motor designing, which I highly doubt.
Why do you think chinese can't match or outmatch Israelis or Americans?? By the same metric every system or tech which we developed in house which has Israeli analogue is inferior??

Again I will ask, what is our counter to PL15, assuming it's 200km class dual-pulse BVR even if others don't agree. 40km range difference between Astra mk2 is just too much to be ignored and there is no educated analysis,guess or study anywhere which shows that Astra mk2 will indeed match Pl15 in either range or NEZ.
I think we only have SFDR BVR to counter PL15 or say outmatch it, though Pl15 is reality as of now.
Chinese can't outclass Israelies here because they are starting later then Israel. Experience advantage is with Israel.

How can I say chinese motors are bigger and inefficient ?? Because they have a longe wider missile than deby ER going by your previous post. An air to air missile needs to as light and short as possible unless you can't miniatures propulsion. That's what is happening with chinese missile.

Stop quoting this 200km figure it's meaningless unless you specify at which altitude and against which target.

Against a fighter jet it's a joke . Only thing that matters is nez. That's why Israel doesn't say Derby ER has more range but insists it has larger nez. And that's why meteor trumps them all it has largest nez.

The whole point of dual pulse is to provide extra energy in endgame and hence enlarge nez. Bigger missile Design runs counter to that objective.
 

Kuldeepm952

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
252
Likes
1,017
Country flag
Chinese can't outclass Israelies here because they are starting later then Israel. Experience advantage is with Israel.

How can I say chinese motors are bigger and inefficient ?? Because they have a longe wider missile than deby ER going by your previous post. An air to air missile needs to as light and short as possible unless you can't miniatures propulsion. That's what is happening with chinese missile.

Stop quoting this 200km figure it's meaningless unless you specify at which altitude and against which target.

Against a fighter jet it's a joke . Only thing that matters is nez. That's why Israel doesn't say Derby ER has more range but insists it has larger nez. And that's why meteor trumps them all it has largest nez.

The whole point of dual pulse is to provide extra energy in endgame and hence enlarge nez. Bigger missile Design runs counter to that objective.
Sir, we clearly are on different pathways regarding this. Let's see if Pl15 or Astra mk2 is ever used in combat, then we can finally put this matter to rest...🙃
 

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
8,395
Likes
33,490
Country flag
Sir, we clearly are on different pathways regarding this. Let's see if Pl15 or Astra mk2 is ever used in combat, then we can finally put this matter to rest...🙃
Firsts the Chinese will have to get across meteor which is already operational with india. I don't think they will take those chances. Anyway agree to disagree.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

Articles

Top