Did Communism and Stalin save the world from Nazism ?

asianobserve

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The foundation of WWII lie in Wilson declaration.
What am I not surprised about this statement..? Anyway, I have attached herewith the Wilson Declaration that you blindly desparaged...

FOURTEEN POINTS

1. Open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.

2. Absolute freedom of navigation upon the seas, outside territorial waters, alike in peace and in war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or in part by international action for the enforcement of international covenants.

3. The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance.

4. Adequate guarantees given and taken that national armaments will be reduced to the lowest point consistent with domestic safety.

5. A free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims, based upon a strict observance of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable claims of the government whose title is to be determined.

6. The evacuation of all Russian territory and such a settlement of all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy and assure her of a sincere welcome into the society of free nations under institutions of her own choosing; and, more than a welcome, assistance also of every kind that she may need and may herself desire. The treatment accorded Russia by her sister nations in the months to come will be the acid test of their good will, of their comprehension of her needs as distinguished from their own interests, and of their intelligent and unselfish sympathy.

7. Belgium, the whole world will agree, must be evacuated and restored, without any attempt to limit the sovereignty which she enjoys in common with all other free nations. No other single act will serve as this will serve to restore confidence among the nations in the laws which they have themselves set and determined for the government of their relations with one another. Without this healing act the whole structure and validity of international law is forever impaired.

8. All French territory should be freed and the invaded portions restored, and the wrong done to France by Prussia in 1871 in the matter of Alsace-Lorraine, which has unsettled the peace of the world for nearly fifty years, should be righted, in order that peace may once more be made secure in the interest of all.

9. A readjustment of the frontiers of Italy should be effected along clearly recognizable lines of nationality.

10. The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity to autonomous development.

11. Romania, Serbia, and Montenegro should be evacuated; occupied territories restored; Serbia accorded free and secure access to the sea; and the relations of the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and international guarantees of the political and economic independence and territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered into.

12. The Turkish portion of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.

13. An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.

14. A general association of nations must be formed under specific covenants for the purpose of affording mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity to great and small states alike.


This declaration was made in a speech made by Wilson to US Congress in 1918. If you notice it's a comes as a naive idealist approach to the European problem. It seeks to give everybody a fair chance. And most controversially, it calls for the creation of an international body where international body that the US Republican Party were so opposed of (until now the US Republicans still opposes the UN). Had Wilson agenda been fully carried through in the treaty negotiations Germany would not have ended up being so unfairly levied with all the baggages that most historians now regard as the roots of WW2.

Unfortunately (for the Germans), the French got their way in the treaty negotiations, which I think was only expected since the negotiations was held in France. Thus, the French were able to impose the harshest terms against the Germans (the British in fairness were not as harsh as the French).

BTW, the Treaty of Varsailles was rejected by the US Congress.
 
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asianobserve

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Apropos the emboldened portion, the fault lies with Britain and France, not Stalin.
Partly, its true that Western appeasement to Hitler emboldend the latter. But only to a certain degree. With the Western alliance's will (or lack of it) thoroughly made clear to Hitler, his biggest worry was the USSR. Thus, he went out of his ideological purity to reach out to his greatest enemy, the Communist Stalin. Lucky for him, Stalin has all along been salivating of Poland. Of course Hitler was aware of it and so prominently dangled it to Stalin who immediately snatched the opportunity, never mind if it was offered by the devil himself.

I would say that had Stalin only not agreed for a 10-year alliance with Hitler, the latter would not have been so emboldend as to lunch a full scale assault on Europe: 1. definitely Hitler will not attack Poland without Stalin's assurance of non-aggression; 2. Hitler will not have made his Western push (to Belgium-France-etc.) had Poland not been secured of a buffer against the USSR and most importantly had the latter's non-aggression commitment not been secured (for 10 years!), for without this commitment Hitler was vulnerable from an opportunistic attack on his Eastern flank from Stalin while he was busy routing the Western alliance.
 

asianobserve

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But as Czechoslovakia which was given to Hitler Franse by a m England without a single shot?
But as Abyssinia. Which was betrayed by League of nations?
True, this Western Betrayals emboldened Hitler to be more megalomaniacal. But had Stalin not assured him of a 10-year alliance/pact of non-aggression Hitler would not have lunched his all-out assault on Europe. The USSR was "the" real balancing force against Nazi Germany pre-WW2 (this will be reflected in WW2).
 

Akim

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True, this Western Betrayals emboldened Hitler to be more megalomaniacal. But had Stalin not assured him of a 10-year alliance/pact of non-aggression Hitler would not have lunched his all-out assault on Europe. The USSR was "the" real balancing force against Nazi Germany pre-WW2 (this will be reflected in WW2).
I did not want interfere in your dispute, that not give God not to offend Polish friends. But you do not absolutely know our history. you poke in the division of Poland in 1939, not knowing pre-history. When Poland became the independent state in 1918 she had quite another borders. After The Soviet-Polish war, by agreement by compiled by England, it was stepped back her part of Ukraine and Belarus. In 1939 year Stalin simply returned these territories of the USSR. And in 1945 to Poland back part of earths and transferred German earths, where the Polish population lived.
We, neighbours, a long ago did сраницу histories invert it, what you with the Western foolishness of climbs to us, what incandesce relations?


 
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Known_Unknown

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This would have been a fantastic thread to contribute to if only I had the time! Sigh. :(

Hopefully this weekend. :)
 

asianobserve

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I did not want interfere in your dispute, that not give God not to offend Polish friends. But you do not absolutely know our history. you poke in the division of Poland in 1939, not knowing pre-history.

I see. No wonder Polish are so enamored to Russia... :rolleyes:
 

Picard

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Since the thread is pinned, I figured it be fine to resurrect it. Anyway, fact is that if not for Communism and Stalin, world would not need "saving from Nazism". As a matter of fact, Nazis were only able to try to begin their world conquest because Soviets provided Germany with resources, war material and even technological knowledge it required to build its war machine:
 

Blademaster

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Since the thread is pinned, I figured it be fine to resurrect it. Anyway, fact is that if not for Communism and Stalin, world would not need "saving from Nazism". As a matter of fact, Nazis were only able to try to begin their world conquest because Soviets provided Germany with resources, war material and even technological knowledge it required to build its war machine:
Hogwash! If it wasn't for Franch and UK insisting on war reparations and bankrupting and humiliating Germany in the process, Nazism wouldn't have arose and there would have been no WWII. Stop deflecting blame and pinning the blame on your favorite whipping boy, Russia for every thing your country has done. Admit your fault and guilt and apologize like Germany did.
 

Picard

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Hogwash! If it wasn't for Franch and UK insisting on war reparations and bankrupting and humiliating Germany in the process, Nazism wouldn't have arose and there would have been no WWII. Stop deflecting blame and pinning the blame on your favorite whipping boy, Russia for every thing your country has done. Admit your fault and guilt and apologize like Germany did.
That is a myth, actually. Sure, reparations may have been humiliating and that may have helped the Nazis, but fact is that a) reparations were not that significant, and b) majority of reparations were forgiven. Germany never was forced to pay even close to total sum of the reparations.


And "my country" has done absolutely nothing. I mean, you didn't even bother looking where I am actually from before posting your little diatribe...

Hittler , stalin , churchil all three were psycho patients . Nazism , communism both are retard ideology .
Agreed. But with Stalin, it gets even worse - Communism was forced onto Russia by foreign interests trying to destroy the country. And Stalin was a psycho even for a Communist.
 

Blademaster

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That is a myth, actually. Sure, reparations may have been humiliating and that may have helped the Nazis, but fact is that a) reparations were not that significant, and b) majority of reparations were forgiven. Germany never was forced to pay even close to total sum of the reparations.

Oh please stop with the revisionist history. Reparations were extremely significant and the majority of reparations were forgiven after extracting a huge toll on the German economy and that happened during the 30s when the West saw the rise of Nazism. Germany could not never pay the total sum of the reparations, not with the interest rate they were charging and the Allies realized that too late.

And "my country" has done absolutely nothing. I mean, you didn't even bother looking where I am actually from before posting your little diatribe...
I know which country you came from and your country has done its share of sins but making Russia as your favorite whipping boy for all the ills of WW2 is not going to change the fact.
 

FalconSlayers

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Communism is the polar opposite of Nazism
 

Picard

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Oh please stop with the revisionist history. Reparations were extremely significant and the majority of reparations were forgiven after extracting a huge toll on the German economy and that happened during the 30s when the West saw the rise of Nazism. Germany could not never pay the total sum of the reparations, not with the interest rate they were charging and the Allies realized that too late.
Revisionism is a core of history. If things are not discussed then it is not history but dogma, and that is how you are acting. You have your religion and anyone questioning it is a heretic.

Reparations were forgiven before the Nazis rose to power. Even if they were not - Italy did not have to pay reparations, Japan did not, Romania did not, Bulgaria did not, Spain did not, Yugoslavia did not... why did all these countries join the Axis, then? (And yes, Yugoslavia did join the Axis of its own free will - it was British-sponsored coup that forced Hitler to invade it).

Fact is that Germany was not defeated after First World War, yet it was treated as it was. Sure, it was defeated in the field, but no Allied troops entered Berlin.

I know which country you came from and your country has done its share of sins but making Russia as your favorite whipping boy for all the ills of WW2 is not going to change the fact.
Oh, I know. But acting as if Russia was some sort of an innocent victim will not change the facts of their involvement before or during World War 2. Even if Hitler had wanted to start the war anyway, he would not have been able to do it without Soviet help. Germany would never have been able to build its military without weapons R&D carried out within USSR, and even with it, would not have been able to use it for anything without resources provided by the USSR. Hell, even with this assistance, Germany might have gotten defeated in 1939. if Soviet Union had not invaded Poland from the other side. When you actually read detailed histories of the Fall Weiss, it was not an effortless victory that popular history likes it to portray as.

Communism is the polar opposite of Nazism
Except where it is not. Which is literally everything other than the question of national identity. And if you think that Communist globalism somehow makes it better than Nazism... think again.
 

FalconSlayers

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Revisionism is a core of history. If things are not discussed then it is not history but dogma, and that is how you are acting. You have your religion and anyone questioning it is a heretic.

Reparations were forgiven before the Nazis rose to power. Even if they were not - Italy did not have to pay reparations, Japan did not, Romania did not, Bulgaria did not, Spain did not, Yugoslavia did not... why did all these countries join the Axis, then? (And yes, Yugoslavia did join the Axis of its own free will - it was British-sponsored coup that forced Hitler to invade it).

Fact is that Germany was not defeated after First World War, yet it was treated as it was. Sure, it was defeated in the field, but no Allied troops entered Berlin.



Oh, I know. But acting as if Russia was some sort of an innocent victim will not change the facts of their involvement before or during World War 2. Even if Hitler had wanted to start the war anyway, he would not have been able to do it without Soviet help. Germany would never have been able to build its military without weapons R&D carried out within USSR, and even with it, would not have been able to use it for anything without resources provided by the USSR. Hell, even with this assistance, Germany might have gotten defeated in 1939. if Soviet Union had not invaded Poland from the other side. When you actually read detailed histories of the Fall Weiss, it was not an effortless victory that popular history likes it to portray as.



Except where it is not. Which is literally everything other than the question of national identity. And if you think that Communist globalism somehow makes it better than Nazism... think again.
Communism is LWE while Nazism is RWE.
 

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