Did Communism and Stalin save the world from Nazism ?

asianobserve

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Do you know why the USSR was compelled to enter into this agreement? It is because the West was arming Germany in the hope it would invade USSR, but Stalin played a masterstroke, let Germany use the Trans-Siberian Railway to transport raw materials from Japan, who help lot of territories in the Far East, and Germany then invaded France.

The USSR was compelled to enter into the Pact? Are you sure you're awake? West arming Germany? The USSR lent its Trans Siberian Railway only for the passage of goods from Japan to Germany? Now I have a new respect for your faithfulness to the USSR... During the existence of the Pact the USSR directly supplied raw materials to Germany until it was invaded by Hitler.

German–Soviet Credit Agreement (1939) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

German–Soviet Commercial Agreement (1940) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

pmaitra

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The USSR was compelled to enter into the Pact? Are you sure you're awake? West arming Germany? The USSR lent its Trans Siberian Railway only for the passage of goods from Japan to Germany? Now I have a new respect for your faithfulness to the USSR... During the existence of the Pact the USSR directly supplied raw materials to Germany until it was invaded by Hitler.

German–Soviet Credit Agreement (1939) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

German–Soviet Commercial Agreement (1940) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
None of this proves that USSR allied with Germany.

India also has a tax treaty with the USA. There was also SAFTA, a trade agreement. EU is also includes a trade and free border agreements. Are these alliances?

What rubbish!
 

asianobserve

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The question is was Nazism bad for Asia ? Sure it was a nightmare for Europeans.....but Asians ?

Under the Tripartite agreemrnt between Germany, Italy and Japan. Asia was supposed to be under the sphere of influence of Imperial Japan. So your question should be "was Imperial Japan bad for Asia?" What do you think?
 

asianobserve

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None of this proves that USSR allied with Germany.

India also has a tax treaty with the USA. There was also SAFTA, a trade agreement. EU is also includes a trade and free border agreements. Are these alliances?

What rubbish!
Those three sources does not refer to the Pact. Those are references on the commercial agreements between the USSR and Germany between 1939 until 1941. I mentioned them to disabuse your Soviet indoctrinated view that the USSR did not supply raw materials to Germany but only provided a transit point for goods transport from Japan to Germany.

Regarding the 10-year German-USSR alliance here are some sources:

Modern History Sourcebook: The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, 1939

Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

pmaitra

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Those three sources does not refer to the Pact. I mentioned them to disabuse your Soviet indoctrinated view that the USSR did not supply raw materials to Germany but only provided a transit point for goods transport from Japan to Germany.

Regarding the 10-year German-USSR alliance here are some sources:

Modern History Sourcebook: The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, 1939

Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then why are you mentioning them?

I am only countering your assertion that USSR allied with the NAZIs. This is drivel.

I know about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. No need to cite links. You have probably read only Western books. I have read Soviet books on this Pact.
 

asianobserve

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I dare talks, as a soviet man. My grandfather, crew member, departed with fights from our western borders to Stalingrad. And lost a leg on the Kursk. arc. For me there is this war blood.
Too bad for your father. He has to sacrifice his leg for Stalin's mistake.
 

Akim

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Under the Tripartite agreemrnt between Germany, Italy and Japan. Asia was supposed to be under the sphere of influence of Imperial Japan. So your question should be "was Imperial Japan bad for Asia?" What do you think?
You have nervous nformation. Hitler wanted occupation of India, after the capture of Caucasus.
 

asianobserve

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You have nervous nformation. Hitler wanted occupation of India, after the capture of Caucasus.
Interesting. So Hitler planned to fight Imperial Japan after he captured the Caucasus?
 

asianobserve

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I know about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. No need to cite links. You have probably read only Western books. I have read Soviet books on this Pact.
BTW, did you really read the text of the Pact. Here's an English translation...

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, 1939

Text of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact
The Government of the German Reich and The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics desirous of strengthening the cause of peace between Germany and the U.S.S.R., and proceeding from the fundamental provisions of the Neutrality Agreement concluded in April, 1926 between Germany and the U.S.S.R., have reached the following Agreement:

Article I. Both High Contracting Parties obligate themselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on each other, either individually or jointly with other Powers.

Article II. Should one of the High Contracting Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third Power, the other High Contracting Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third Power.

Article III. The Governments of the two High Contracting Parties shall in the future maintain continual contact with one another for the purpose of consultation in order to exchange information on problems affecting their common interests.

Article IV. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties shall participate in any grouping of Powers whatsoever that is directly or indirectly aimed at the other party.

Article V. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties over problems of one kind or another, both parties shall settle these disputes or conflicts exclusively through friendly exchange of opinion or, if necessary, through the establishment of arbitration commissions.

Article VI. The present Treaty is concluded for a period of ten years, with the proviso that, in so far as one of the High Contracting Parties does not advance it one year prior to the expiration of this period, the validity of this Treaty shall automatically be extended for another five years.

Article VII. The present treaty shall be ratified within the shortest possible time. The ratifications shall be exchanged in Berlin. The Agreement shall enter into force as soon as it is signed.

[The section below was not published at the time the above was announced.]

Secret Additional Protocol.

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinteredness in these areas.

Article IV. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.

Moscow, August 23, 1939.
For the Government of the German Reich v. Ribbentrop

Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov
 

pmaitra

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^^

Sorry, it was not an alliance. Anyway, I have already countered you.

I will respond if you have anything new to say. Simpy repeating the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact multiple times does not make your argument any more valid.
 

pmaitra

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No. India was not included in the sphere of influence of Japan.
You are correct. It was not included in the sphere of influence of Japan, but our friend probably does not realize that.
 

asianobserve

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No. India was not included in the sphere of influence of Japan.

You're right there. My mistake. Anyway, Malaysia would still fall under the sphere of influence of Imperial Japan.
 

pmaitra

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The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union - 70 years on

This online supplement is produced and published by Rossiyskaya Gazeta (Russia), which takes sole responsibility for the contents

Olga Dmitrieva, Russia Now 5:34PM BST 28 Aug 2009

Dancing with Hitler on the edge of the abyss

Seventy years ago, the world was falling into an abyss that would engulf between 50m and 70m lives. World War II dwarfed all previous wars, and raised questions not yet satisfactorily answered. What was the rationale behind the German-Soviet Treaty of Nonaggression? What did those who signed the pact hope for? We talked to American military historian and writer Albert Axell about these unresolved issues.

There is an abiding claim that if the Soviet-German nonagression agreement (the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) had not been signed in August 1939, the Second World War might never have happened and history could have taken quite a different course. Do you believe this to be true?

No, it is not. Hitler's timetable called for a war with Poland on September 1. Some of the facts are still little known or blurred, or were submerged during the Cold War. However, a year earlier, the Munich Pact, in which Britain and France in effect gave Czechoslovakia to Hitler on a silver platter, was a severe blow to Moscow. Hitler's war machine was strengthened by the takeover of the splendid Czech munitions industry.

The following year the talks in Moscow on an Anglo-French-Soviet Mutual Defence Treaty broke down. The British and French were not serious about signing it. In fact, while these talks were in progress, the British government was secretly negotiating a deal with Hitler directed against Russia. Their secret instructions tell the story.

Two examples: ""¦the delegation should use great discretion as to how far they disclose Anglo-French intentions to the Russians"¦ the delegation should therefore go very slow with the conversations." Also: "Disclosure to the Russians of the details of any technical equipment in the first stage is impossible"¦"

At the time of the Munich talks, Vladimir Potemkin, deputy head of the Soviet Foreign Ministry, warned French Ambassador Robert Coulondre that the decisions at Munich would lead to the "partition" of Poland. Coulondre immediately understood what was meant.

Hitler was determined to invade Poland and Russia would not stand idly by. The Second World War was around the corner. Stalin and his coterie agreed to the pact with Hitler because they were certain Hitler would invade Poland with or without a treaty with Moscow.

Without such a treaty, Russia would gain nothing and might well be in terrible danger: The Kremlin expected Hitler to turn against Russia sooner or later. Meanwhile, as Molotov met with Ribbentrop, major hostilities between Russia and Japan were taking place in Mongolia. Hitler regarded Japan as a close ally.

Did Stalin have an alternative to signing the pact with Hitler, considering that the Soviet Union was not prepared for war against Germany, and that the Western powers were unwilling to unite with Russia?

Yes. Stalin wanted to sign a treaty of mutual help with Britain and France and invited Britain's Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, to come to Moscow to lead or help in the talks. Nearly every expert says that if Halifax had gone to Moscow, the negotiations would probably have succeeded. But he did not go.

At that time, Nazi Germany was much more powerful militarily than Russia. Russia needed at least two or three more years to catch up militarily and industrially. Stalin chose the path that was, it turned out, best for Russia, best for Britain, best for the United States and for the world.

How did Russia – and the world – gain? According to secret protocols added to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Poland would be divided between the two powers. This meant that in a future clash between Russia and Germany, the hostilities would be started 200 to 300 kilometres away from the Soviet border. Russia, in other words, had a buffer that in due course delayed the invasion of Soviet territory by Hitler's armies.

Few historians mention that Hitler met Stalin's first condition: signing an economic pact. Under this, Berlin granted Russia a two-year credit of 180m Reichsmarks for the purchase of German goods. The permission was obtained for Russian pilots and aircraft designers to visit no less than 200 German aircraft and military factories the year before Hitler invaded the USSR.

The Russian mission to Berlin bought many late-model German planes and flew them to Moscow. Information obtained, on this and other occasions, proved invaluable. Hitler was said to have been furious about the sale of planes. The German general who approved the Russian requests committed suicide. By building up its military muscle and overcoming the Wehrmacht, the Soviets helped the US and Britain in their great victories over Hitler's armies in Western Europe.

Why did Britain and France show a lack of enthusiasm about signing a military agreement with Moscow in the summer of 1939, before the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? How could both London and Paris appear to have been so short-sighted?

There are three main reasons. First: an underlying purpose entertained by British leader Neville Chamberlain was to leave Hitler a free hand for expansion eastward into Russia. Nothing could have been more welcome to many British and French statesmen than to see Hitler's Germany in a death struggle with Russia's Bolsheviks. And if Japan joined in and all three fought to a standstill, no tears would be shed in London or Paris.

Second: after World War I, giant British and French companies were deeply involved in rehabilitating Germany's war potential, apart from financial and economic aid.

Third: in 1933, the Imperial Policy Group was formed, sponsored by a number of parliamentarians of the extreme Right. Soviet Communism was more repugnant to many conservatives than the ideology of Nazism. Opposition to a collective security pact for Europe and detestation of Russia were two of the things that united this group of diehards.

But the USSR was not the first state to sign an agreement with Hitler's Germany. Latvia and Estonia were the first. It is then even more surprising that, today, the Baltic states are such fierce accusers of the Soviet Union for its pact with Germany.

Everyone can appreciate the feelings that ordinary people in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania had during World War Two. No nation likes to be conquered by another. Unfortunately, the three states are located in strategic positions on the Baltic coast, and therefore would automatically be involved in any armed conflict between Russia and Germany. There were both anti-fascists and anti-Communists in the Baltic states who bristled whether under the red flag or the swastika.

Stalin's ambassador in London, Maisky, reported that Churchill told him the following shortly before Hitler invaded Poland: "For the most part, Britain has no reasons to object to Soviet actions in the Baltic area."

Churchill told Maisky that he appreciated Russia's bid to become master on the eastern coast of the Baltic Sea, and was glad that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were incorporated into the USSR, rather than into the German Reich. Churchill, according to Maisky, said this was "historically normal".

Seventy years on, and the Soviet Union doesn't exist any more; the world has moved on. Why does mention of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact still provoke bitter debate in the new millennium? Why is it still such a hot topic?

Perhaps one reason is a psychological need to hide Western faults, especially during the fateful 1930s, and to exaggerate Russia's. It is easy to point a finger at Russia and not to fault the blindness of the British and French for the betrayal of Czechoslovakia at the Munich conference in September 1938.

British historian AJP Taylor is categorical: when Hitler sent a message to Stalin on August 20, 1939, agreeing to all Russian demands, his message "was a milestone in world history".

Taylor adds: "It marked the moment when Soviet Russia returned to Europe as a great power. No European statesman had ever addressed Stalin directly before"¦ Now Hitler recognised him as the ruler of a great state."

Earlier, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain twice flew to Berlin to discuss vital questions with Hitler, but he refused to meet Stalin. Sir Winston Churchill was a statesman of a different order.

Sadly, the Cold War prevented the West from getting the full picture of the heavy sacrifices made by the Russian people in the common struggle against the Axis powers. General Eisenhower's son, John SD Eisenhower, a prominent military historian, speaking several years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, made a remark that may surprise millions of Americans and Europeans to this day.

A Second World War veteran, Eisenhower said: "The Anglo-American invasion of north-west France, in June 1944, was not only assisted, it was even made possible, by the heavy sacrifices borne by Russia's soldiers"¦"

Today, it should be an obligation for the US and other Western (and Asian) democracies to join hands with Russia in eliminating the most pressing dangers to our present civilisation. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, united we can succeed, divided we can fail.

Source: The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union - 70 years on - Telegraph
 

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