Dalai Lama's Thank You India Address

johnee

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I think Dalai Lama has accepted tibet as a part of china bcoz he thinks thats the practical thing to do, especially since india is not very keen to help the tibet liberation movement. maybe, it would change if india is more proactive. every, now and then india must release statements like 'tibet belongs to tibetans, tibet must not be ruled by foreigners.....etc'. just like they give statements about AP.
 

Flint

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I think Dalai Lama has accepted tibet as a part of china bcoz he thinks thats the practical thing to do, especially since india is not very keen to help the tibet liberation movement. maybe, it would change if india is more proactive. every, now and then india must release statements like 'tibet belongs to tibetans, tibet must not be ruled by foreigners.....etc'. just like they give statements about AP.
That would be a climbdown from our current position, and it would prompt China to make more radical statements regarding AP and other disputed territories. How will that help us?

IMO, we stick to our current position and build leverage - military and diplomatic - which would deter China from pissing us off.
 

johnee

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That would be a climbdown from our current position, and it would prompt China to make more radical statements regarding AP and other disputed territories. How will that help us?

IMO, we stick to our current position and build leverage - military and diplomatic - which would deter China from pissing us off.
sir,
I dont understand how its a climbdown, plz explain.

anyway, china doesnt care when it makes statements about OUR state, while you want us to walk on eggshells so as not to hurt the chinese sensitivity regarding their OCCUPIED region?

wat radical statements? IMO, the audacity with which they claim AP based on some pre-medieval connection is itself very radical.
how would Astan, pakistan, sri lanka, bhutan, myanmar, Nepal react if we claimed them based on some antique connection? time to assert self-respect.
if china is getting stronger, we are also getting stronger. let us not act like some small nation, infact even a small nation acts with more boldness. would BD tolerate if have frequent incursions into their land based on some artificial 'border disputes'?
 

Flint

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sir,
I dont understand how its a climbdown, plz explain.
Its a climbdown because we currently show Tibet as part of China on our maps.

anyway, china doesnt care when it makes statements about OUR state, while you want us to walk on eggshells so as not to hurt the chinese sensitivity regarding their OCCUPIED region?
You're looking at this the wrong way. Infact you're assuming that the Chinese leadership is a deceitful thief who is simply making these statements to piss off India. That is definitely not the case.

wat radical statements? IMO, the audacity with which they claim AP based on some pre-medieval connection is itself very radical.
how would Astan, pakistan, sri lanka, bhutan, myanmar, Nepal react if we claimed them based on some antique connection? time to assert self-respect.
if china is getting stronger, we are also getting stronger. let us not act like some small nation, infact even a small nation acts with more boldness. would BD tolerate if have frequent incursions into their land based on some artificial 'border disputes'?
You really have to go and examine why China is claiming AP. Its certainly not some pre-medeival connection. The reason is very much political and related to current events.

Secondly, self-respect and all this is a moot-point. That's just the populist stuff to play on peoples' emotions. The important thing is to ensure that we solve our border problems with China asap so that our coming generations don't have to face threats from all directions.
 

johnee

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Its a climbdown because we currently show Tibet as part of China on our maps.



You're looking at this the wrong way. Infact you're assuming that the Chinese leadership is a deceitful thief who is simply making these statements to piss off India. That is definitely not the case.



You really have to go and examine why China is claiming AP. Its certainly not some pre-medeival connection. The reason is very much political and related to current events.

Secondly, self-respect and all this is a moot-point. That's just the populist stuff to play on peoples' emotions. The important thing is to ensure that we solve our border problems with China asap so that our coming generations don't have to face threats from all directions.
sir,
self-respect is not a moot-point, its a very vital point. most of the time how a person/nation is treated depends on how it treats itself. right now, we can see a lot of impact of 1962 in our relations with china. we have got to move away from that pshycology and reinvent the relation based on mutual respect. irrespective of china's present growth or future status, india must deal with china as just another neighbour and avoid giving it a royal treatment that presently gets. as far as indo-china is concerned its all one way traffic. we dont even suck up to the PRESENT super-power US as much as we suck up to the so-called FUTURE superpower.


sir, I would appreciate if you enlighten me about basis of china's claim of AP.
anyway, irrespective of their basis, nothing changes. pre-independence, the UK thought that it was justified in ruling india, that doesnt make colonialism right does it? just because china thinks tibet belongs to it or AP belongs to it, it doesnt change anything. infact, the mere fact that they have been claiming regions based on their vision, makes it imperative for us to counter their views(and show their fallacy) by making counter-claims.

of course, I am assuming that chinese leadership is decietful and has imperialistic ambitions over NE india. and there are ample instances of this behaviour. they have been supporting and aiding the separatist movements in NE, they have ambitions of 'pearl of strings' and they groom pak to carry out its thousand-cut policy. of course, I am assuming that chinese leadership is not sincere.

as for climbdown, when chinese foreign minister makes comments about sikkim(already accepted as a part of india), wat would you call that? if they dont mind climbing up and down their stance, why are we so fixated with it?


lastly, sir, when chinese make protests when an indian flag is hoisted in AP or when our politicians/ministers/PM go to AP, refuse to give visas to ppl of AP, I dont see wat more radical they would do, or how that would be any different. its time for some tit-for-tat. and we mustnt be afraid of any backlash, becoz its not 1962.
 

Flint

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sir,
self-respect is not a moot-point, its a very vital point. most of the time how a person/nation is treated depends on how it treats itself. right now, we can see a lot of impact of 1962 in our relations with china. we have got to move away from that pshycology and reinvent the relation based on mutual respect. irrespective of china's present growth or future status, india must deal with china as just another neighbour and avoid giving it a royal treatment that presently gets. as far as indo-china is concerned its all one way traffic. we dont even suck up to the PRESENT super-power US as much as we suck up to the so-called FUTURE superpower.
Well, what i meant was that I don't think India is giving up its self-respect in its dealings with China. After all, we openly support the guy who China considers one of the biggest threats to its own stability, and let Free Tibet protesters organize their activities with no hindrances.

Secondly, before we make statements which could seriously jeopardize our relationship, we should ensure that we have the military advantage if war takes place. Right now, we do not have the military advantage so it would be rather foolish to stick our neck out.

sir, I would appreciate if you enlighten me about basis of china's claim of AP.
anyway, irrespective of their basis, nothing changes. pre-independence, the UK thought that it was justified in ruling india, that doesnt make colonialism right does it? just because china thinks tibet belongs to it or AP belongs to it, it doesnt change anything. infact, the mere fact that they have been claiming regions based on their vision, makes it imperative for us to counter their views(and show their fallacy) by making counter-claims.
Well, in short, its about Tawang. Tawang is a major Buddhist monastery and thus a political center which is opposed to Chinese control over Tibet. China wants to replace all the Tibetan religious figures with pro-Chinese people, and they cannot do this in Tawang as long as its a part of India.

This is the reason why they keep bringing up AP or "South Tibet" as its called there.

Now, I'm not justifying anything that China does or did in the past. I don't remember suggesting that China is right in claiming AP at all, and we should definitely protest strongly if China makes such noises. However, if we retaliate and claim that Tibet is not part of China, we should be prepared to deal with the consequences. I don't think that we are, and I also don't think that it is worth it.

of course, I am assuming that chinese leadership is decietful and has imperialistic ambitions over NE india. and there are ample instances of this behaviour. they have been supporting and aiding the separatist movements in NE, they have ambitions of 'pearl of strings' and they groom pak to carry out its thousand-cut policy. of course, I am assuming that chinese leadership is not sincere.
Well, in that case every government in the world is deceitful. Why single out China. the US bombs everybody who doesn't agree with them. They have assassinated elected leaders, supported coups and revolutions all over the world whenever it suits their interest.

The "string of pearls" strategy is nothing exceptionally deceitful, and obviously India should try to counter it and also try to increase own influence in the regions that are under Chinese hegemony. But all this is besides the point that I'm trying to make.

Regarding NE India, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I have not yet read any reports which claim that China is actively supporting insurgents in NE.

I don't think they are 'grooming' Pakistan for anything, they are simply giving tacit approval to Paksitan's proxy war against India, as long as the insurgents don't turn their sights on Xinjiang province.
Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of such an ally in the region. If we did, we could use that to our advantage. We should try to gain allies in China's neighbourhood of course. There's nothing wrong with that.

as for climbdown, when chinese foreign minister makes comments about sikkim(already accepted as a part of india), wat would you call that? if they dont mind climbing up and down their stance, why are we so fixated with it?

lastly, sir, when chinese make protests when an indian flag is hoisted in AP or when our politicians/ministers/PM go to AP, refuse to give visas to ppl of AP, I dont see wat more radical they would do, or how that would be any different. its time for some tit-for-tat. and we mustnt be afraid of any backlash, becoz its not 1962.
Well I don't mind tit-for-tat, for example India could remind China about the treatment of Tibetans (which is consistent with our current position).

Could you point me to the article in which China made a claim over Sikkim? AFAIK, they accepted Sikkim as a part of India in 2003.
If you ask me, it is related to the Karmapa Lama, who is currently based in Sikkim.
 

thakur_ritesh

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there is a clear intent on part of the indian think tanks to have good relations with prc and reasons are quite a few.
india quite clearly does not want hostility emerging from all sides of its borders, and if india can make sure that prc does not attack us directly in a conflict with pakistan then thats half the battle won militarily, extending this further, if we can keep the military supplies at the lowest in case there irrupts a conflict with pakistan then thats a double blow to pakistan and these diplomatic wins would have direct blow on the morale of the average pakistani and their armed forces who tend to take prc as their all weather friend.
there are tremendous economic gains to be had if we have smooth relations with prc. in case we are exporting then that creates huge employment opportunities in india, imports generate extra revenue for the state, and the two way trade in times to come would be 100s of billions of dollars and soon prc will take over US as india's largest trading partner, which in it self speaks volumes about the economic benefits to be had. prc has slowly opened its borders to indian companies and now allows them to operate in its land which makes sure that our companies are able to generate additional revenues and seriously if you are not present in one of the fastest growing economies where the population is the highest in the world then that clearly is a case of missed opportunities.
if we have cozy relations with prc then that keeps US interested and that would also make it pretty well understand that india in no way can be used as a force against prc to further its agenda which is seen to be the case in some quarters in the US. this further makes sure that in case we were to have good relations with the US then they understand well where to draw the line when it comes to influencing our internal and external policies which happens to be a chronic problem with US administrations.


tibet as it is in the back burner, vajpayee government was the first to recognise tibet as an internal part of prc a line that was readily accepted and echoed by the govt in exile of tibet for they understand well that they can not quite go against the wishes of the indian government. in exchange india was able to get the official demarcation of sikkim as a part of india which till then had been shown as a part of prc and there were official maps exchanged on the same, some say it was too much of a give on india's part, well on that the jury is still out. the asylum/refuge given to dalai lama and tebitans at large has to be seen from a strategic influence they can have when it comes to dealing with prc. in case it comes to blow for a blow with prc then we have people here who as directed can create some real time chaos in lahasa and keep a part of prc's paramilitary forces engaged. india always believed that if tibet exists between india and prc then that would act as a buffer zone so it became important to host the tibetans but that was not to happen. india's policies were then influenced big time by gandhi's ideology and so as to present a civilised and a humane face india became obliged to do the needful. in today's context tibet has its uses but the strategic impact is only that much, and for the moment india sees no real need to rack up the issue, when need be they can be used to further our strategic needs but i am sorry to say that if people are expecting india to do any thing more then they are in for a rude shock as nothing of the sort will happen.


emotionally i feel for them for they have every right to have their land back and their rights be restored but strategically they have taken a seat which for now has been put in the cold storage.
 

ShyAngel

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i think dalai lama has accepted tibet as a part of china bcoz he thinks thats the practical thing to do, especially since india is not very keen to help the tibet liberation movement. Maybe, it would change if india is more proactive. Every, now and then india must release statements like 'tibet belongs to tibetans, tibet must not be ruled by foreigners.....etc'. Just like they give statements about ap.
Thank you for understanding the real feelings & not taking us for granted!

Just because HH Dalai Lama and we choose to be smart and settle with less due to its conflict doesn't mean we are fully satisfied over our freedom of nation.
 

Flint

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Btw, ShyAngel, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread with India-China politics. Maybe we should concentrate on the issues regarding the Tibetan people in this thread.
 

ShyAngel

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That would be a climbdown from our current position, and it would prompt China to make more radical statements regarding AP and other disputed territories. How will that help us?

IMO, we stick to our current position and build leverage - military and diplomatic - which would deter China from pissing us off.
Umm that's like saying it is OK for china to illegally get in indian boards, including AP, Ladhak, and Bhutan boarder as long India be chicken and be their BITCH for the sake of hoping to gain something out from them.

:(
 

ShyAngel

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Btw, ShyAngel, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread with India-China politics. Maybe we should concentrate on the issues regarding the Tibetan people in this thread.
Are you trying to say I'm not concentrating on the issue?
 

Flint

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Umm that's like saying it is OK for china to illegally get in indian boards, including AP, Ladhak, and Bhutan boarder as long India be chicken and be their BITCH for the sake of hoping to gain something out from them.

:(
Not at all. The so-called border-intrusions, AFAIK , are because the Chinese maps and Indian maps show different border lines. Those are the border disputes that need to be resolved.

Of course India should protest, and they do protest, when the Chinese cross the border as demarcated on Indian maps, and IMO India shouldn't hesitate to patrol the areas which we consider to be our territory.
If we do patrol our territory properly, our soldiers would definitely do "border incursions" occasionally into "Chinese territory". I'm not sure what the Indian Army policy is regarding this. Can someone clarify?
 

Soham

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China will have to play nice if our military power is maintained vis-a-vis their.

The fact is that the Chinese government is quite eager to solve its border disputes (it recently did so with Russia). Its a matter of diplomacy - build trust between the countries and make it amply clear to the other party that war would be detrimental to their interest.

Raking up Free Tibet will only prompt China to point even more missiles in our direction, and ensure that the current border issues are exacerbated. It will not make Tibet free, and it will definitely not help the Tibetans improve their lives.

About the mineral deposits and oil wealth, well, I have never heard of such a thing. But even if Tibet does have vast amounts of natural resources waiting to be discovered, how are we to benefit from it? Are you suggesting some sort of Great Game for control over Tibet?
Sure, why not, but the problem is that Tibet is already part of China, which BTW is an emerging superpower whose stranglehold over the region will get stronger, not weaker, in the coming decades.
Yes, China will have to play nice if our military power is maintained vis-a-vis theirs.
The problem is, thats its not maintained that way.
Like it or not, China is more powerful conventionally and strategically at this point.

Yes, China is eager to solve the disputes... as long as she is not the loser.
I see no reason why China would give up Aksai-Chin for the sake of "good-will".
 

Soham

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Well China definitely would try to avoid a war with India - that much is for certain - they are interested in economic development at the moment, and not drains on finance and energy like wars with little to gain from.
Who is interested in war ?
Enemity does not always refer to a war...
China can always oppose us on the international stage, crop up trouble in every strategic move we make, and give a hint of who's the boss in South Asia...all this without a risk of war.
A negative sphere of influence.
 

Soham

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Btw, ShyAngel, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread with India-China politics. Maybe we should concentrate on the issues regarding the Tibetan people in this thread.
You haven't hijacked it.
Tibet is the most important issue in India-China politics.
 

Flint

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Yes, China will have to play nice if our military power is maintained vis-a-vis theirs.
The problem is, thats its not maintained that way.
Like it or not, China is more powerful conventionally and strategically at this point.

Yes, China is eager to solve the disputes... as long as she is not the loser.
I see no reason why China would give up Aksai-Chin for the sake of "good-will".
That's exactly my point. If we want to make bold statements, we'll need to back it up with military power.

China will definitely not give up territory, and neither will India. However, there are a number of other border disputes which can be settled by small adjustments,
 

Flint

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Of course, as long as China sees India as a threat to its own interests, it will oppose us, and I hope that we too are using our influence to curtail Chinese influence which is inimical to our interests.

What I meant was that China, like any other rational country, would strive for friendly borders as an eventual goal. Its just a matter of creating the right conditions.

Who is interested in war ?
Enemity does not always refer to a war...
China can always oppose us on the international stage, crop up trouble in every strategic move we make, and give a hint of who's the boss in South Asia...all this without a risk of war.
A negative sphere of influence.
 

pyromaniac

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China will have to play nice if our military power is maintained vis-a-vis their.

The fact is that the Chinese government is quite eager to solve its border disputes (it recently did so with Russia). Its a matter of diplomacy - build trust between the countries and make it amply clear to the other party that war would be detrimental to their interest.

Raking up Free Tibet will only prompt China to point even more missiles in our direction, and ensure that the current border issues are exacerbated. It will not make Tibet free, and it will definitely not help the Tibetans improve their lives.

About the mineral deposits and oil wealth, well, I have never heard of such a thing. But even if Tibet does have vast amounts of natural resources waiting to be discovered, how are we to benefit from it? Are you suggesting some sort of Great Game for control over Tibet?
Sure, why not, but the problem is that Tibet is already part of China, which BTW is an emerging superpower whose stranglehold over the region will get stronger, not weaker, in the coming decades.

I posted a article in the strategy page that talked about the resources and the bases in Tibet...check it out if you want more back info. Now moving to your other point, you seem to be in a idealistic state of mind. India HAS been trying to remain friendly with China in spite of their repeated transgressions. India was one of the first countries to formally accept mainland china(As opposed to Taiwan) in the early 50's and how did china repay us...by attacking us. Fast forward to now and all we see China doing is preparing for a war while we have done absolutely nothing to piss them off.
I am all for dialogue but all talk and no work has left India in the unenviable position it is in now while on the other hand, Israel followed a different approach and look at them now....


p.s. We are going away from the topic of the thread...I think we can have a good discussion about this in the discussion thread.
 

Flint

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I posted a article in the strategy page that talked about the resources and the bases in Tibet...check it out if you want more back info. Now moving to your other point, you seem to be in a idealistic state of mind. India HAS been trying to remain friendly with China in spite of their repeated transgressions. India was one of the first countries to formally accept mainland china(As opposed to Taiwan) in the early 50's and how did china repay us...by attacking us.
You are forgetting what happened in 1959 - Dalai Lama fled to India and got sanctuary, which was obviously regarded as a huge negative by the Chinese government, and also India's 'forward policy' which actually extended India's borders further than the McMahon line.

Also, the reason we lost the war was that we were not prepared for it. That is just stupidity - and you seem think that I would have India lie down and wait for China to attack?


Fast forward to now and all we see China doing is preparing for a war while we have done absolutely nothing to piss them off.
That's what countries do - they prepare for war during peacetime. I hope we are doing the same.

I am all for dialogue but all talk and no work has left India in the unenviable position it is in now while on the other hand, Israel followed a different approach and look at them now....
LoL - Israel has unconditional support from Amrikka. Do we? If we can get unconditional support from America and EU then I say hell yeah - go forth and liberate Tibet.
 

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