Crouching Dragon, Kneeling Tiger

[Rashna]

That might not work eventually though. We must leverage our advantage and loosen china's foothold. Now i have to bring in maldives too, another foreign relations disaster. We kind of rectified the same fracas in Sri Lanka with the voting out of Rajapaksa.
China has its claws in to Sri Lanka too and why would they be better able to make friends with all of our neighbors? Is there some reason where we are failing or is that the Chinese know how to play?
Super Power greatness is measured by the allies you have in the world. So when are we likely to get there on this bullock cart where 2 neighbors get on and 2 get off every few months.
We remained faithful to the Russians for the longest time because Russia gave us what we wanted. By the same measure our regional super power aspirations will be measured with what we can "give" rather than what we can "take".

Note: Just like the madhesi problem with nepal, sri lanka had the tamil issue which has been a constant thorn in mutual relations. China doesn't have any such ethnic ties in local populations of its neighbors in the Indian sub-continent. Moreover they are not democratic so they won't support any anti-state activities. This works to their advantage.

Everything you said is all hunky-dory but is based on false premises that nepal is goody goody and India bad bad. Nepal like any hilly state in India has two factions lower hills/valleys vs upper hills. Upper Hills is strongly pro China and has Paki complex of thinking themselves superior to "dhotis" and think that Nepal rightful owner of all Northern/Northwestern Hill states which India has occupied illegally. Lower Hills/Valley faction is pro India also called Madhesis as they are of Bihar UP stock primarily and oppose blant Chinese interference. The Upper hills hold the power and they themselves spread propaganda against India. Remember bad propaganda against India even when India supplied largest ever relief material? The propaganda spread was that India occupied their airports preventing their friend china to send more relief planes and were bad mouthing India left and right. They opposed Indian media because, they wanted to stop transmitting images of India helping reaching out in remote regions and helping out Army. The main issue is now that in China guided constitution India finds its bigger votary Madhesis carefully sidelined, a move to suppress Madhesis as well cock a snoot at India. India is doing nothing it is just helping Madhesis find their voice just as China helped Maoists in Nepal. Its a game between China and India, who can throw big money & who can provide easy transit passage for Nepal. Nehru politics that you are suggesting looks good in books or in theory. Realpolitik is different ball game.

 

[TrueSpirit2]

@Rashna is right. India is like a studious geek, whereas countries like china, america etc. are the jocks. If geeks act like jocks, they get thrashed and ridiculed. Better for geeks to focus on intellectual, creative, humanitarian pursuits - in short, soft power.

Is Paki ki sun ke hi fat ke haath mein aa gayi ...Genius is already shitting in his pants.

 

[TrueSpirit2]

Is there some reason where we are failing or is that the Chinese know how to play?

PRC can throw in more cash in foreign bank accounts of leaders from these countries. It is a game of attrition - who gives up first.

That's the way to play. Have more cash.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

PRC can throw in more cash in foreign bank accounts of leaders from these countries. It is a game of attrition - who gives up first.

That's the way to play. Have more cash.

It is a game of balls. India should have sent Viraat to Maldives by now to tell who is the boss. There are enough locals there who would have supported India. No boots on the ground, just naval blockade would have been enough.

 

[TrueSpirit2]

It is a game of balls. India should have sent Viraat to Maldives by now to tell who is the boss. There are enough locals there who would have supported India. No boots on the ground, just naval blockade would have been enough.

Nothing like good-old "Gunboat Diplomacy".

 

[SarkINPark]

I believe at this era a well plabned diplomatic stance and the capabilities to affect a nations decision through back door diplomacy along with the growth of conventional military and economy with nimble steps of potraying hard power by building up bases is the right way in making your presence felt. For example what right now Japan and china is doing is funding and building rail and infrastructure projects in South east asian nations and african nations to impose their influence this is known as train diplomacy. What India should do now is acquire bases in nations,invest more in economic growth along with HDI and take strong military stance against any violations.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

What is the measure of a great power? In the past population was a measure still is too a much lesser extent. Today it is synonymous with economic and military power. The real measure of greatness for a nation is the people. Any nation that earned the label of greatness took a massive effort to achieve.

 

[SarkINPark]

And massive efforts require time and patience China has been involved in africa for a very long time it even fought in a clandestinely in some african civil wars and supported USA on some occasions

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[Bahamut]

And massive efforts require time and patience China has been involved in africa for a very long time it even fought in a clandestinely in some african civil wars and supported USA on some occasions

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We can start now, involvement in Central Asia it is much more closer and has more natural resources and is more stable then Africa.

 

[SarkINPark]

We can and we can play a much larger and we have begun it marked with the sale of 4 mi-24 helis to Afghanistan which would join afghan airforce in 4 months time

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[AnantS]

India has been in Africa much before China, An african is more likely to identify himself with Indian Movies than Chinese movies and it does,..... So India has the advantage, Its only Indian Govt until last year did not leverage much beyond myopic views of youknowwho who liked to define Indian F.P from Rome/Vat POV.
India is trying to reverse the damage and recoup its goodwill. India-Africa Summit was widely accepted in Africa. Africans like to see India helping them out after all India stood with them against their colonial powers.

@Mad Indian : Shaant Bheem Shaant. BJP will do nothin special for Hindus, it was given even before it came to power. But people support BJP, because the alternative for "do nothin for Hindus" BJP is blatantly anti Hindu Opposition. So BJP is sane option until, true RW party comes into existence of which I have dim hope....

 

[roma]

These are some jingoistic titles dude ! ....We need muscle and until then we should work calmly. Chinese have big muscle and economy we have to match that first then we can play the game accordingly..... we are on the right path and we should continue in this direction.... Mean while we should form alliances with Japan, US and other like minded countries which are around China...... We should also improve our economic relations with China. China is a market for us.

really boss ,...your post is better than the article itself !
we should thank the author for raising the issues ...i thank him for that
your opinion is exactly mine too !
good news is that after in a sense floundering around for 6 decades, ( during which time many hundreds of millions ha peaceful lives , no doubt ) ....india is now in a place where all it will take for us to really rise , really BIG time , ia few small concepts --- and THAT'S IT !!! .....one concept , allow our intelligent people to form their companies, start-ups, get into civil service ....and gradually but FIRMLY allow the corrupt to phase OUT ....even by retirement, early retirement ?

just getting rid of a few corrupt old fogies, will free the blockages in the system ....let the younger more college educated who are patriotic get into position and the nation will become unrecognizable!!! ....event eh former celebrated leader of singapore when he visited bangalore, the computer campus, he said he felt as if he was in California ......this was coming from a man who never minced his words ... yet he did say that .....and it was a small thing of getting our college people to merely concentrate on thier studies, which they did to their honour

india will get to within the top 3 or 4 in every sphere of human achieemtent and well-being and it is a good place to be ...only question is will we ourselves stand in our own way ? ...or will we do a few simple things to clear the way for the great rise ?

I like the idea of ignoring Pakistan ..... which is a paper country .....

I am completely against the idea of viewing China as an enemy. Rather China must be viewed as an opportunity like India is for them. China boasts of a better skill base but believe me they ..... ........

agree w you that no way is pack on the same level as india but i personally offer a more brotherly approach to pak regardless of how they view us,

you see imho how pack views usis how well we deal with their boy-friend - lover , prcchina ....if we are strong , or firm, with prchina, then pak will respect us and be more accommodating with us

as for your idea of not seeing prchina as an enemy , we tried that before and many times along they way and ....it simply doesn't work !
i agree more with dr swamy that with prcchina , you have to show strength ....then they will be more apt to listen to you
so again , we are either our bast friend or worst enemy ....get our systems in working condition ( which is hardly the case at present, ) and we will get top the top , regardless, of china, packland or whatever.

Economic might came after military success as one gained access to the wealth of other nations.
In that perspective Karnad's theories say go belligerent, ignore the niceties of being a responsible country and forge ahead with getting hold of the superpower status through sheer bravado.

I don't think we as a country can gain respect as superpower by muscling our way through. Case in point the nepal fiasco. We aren't able to bully even a tiny neighbour which is totally dependent on us for everything. In that light we have a long way to go before we achieve that status, but the soft power status which India earned with Buddha and the indian epics resonate even today. Food for thought.....

very relevant points you made, food for thought !

@Rashna is right. India is like a studious geek, whereas countries like china, america etc. are the jocks. If geeks act like jocks, they get thrashed and ridiculed. Better for geeks to focus on intellectual, creative, humanitarian pursuits - in short, soft power.

great post ...... tweak the conclusion
we are good in studies and often we take that for granted, we think what s so great about that
well truth is most of the rest of the world doesn't have the ability to study, so it isnt such a common commodity or talent at all

it is a precious talent , and we have it !
conclusion , go for knowledge industries and let the less educated do the manufacturing .simple move , india will shine !

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[no smoking]

After reading all the comments in the above, I found one thing was missing in the mind of everyone: the cost, the most important factor in everyone's strategic calculation.
None of the great powers today did not pay great cost on their way to be great power:
Hundreds thousands of white Americans died on their way to the west.
620,000 American men died in their civil war, which was around 2% of her total population at the time;
In 18th centuries, more than 40% British textile workers would be dead within 10 years from the day one of factory;
Japanese peasants contributed 60%-70% of their harvest to government to build up industries;
Soviet industrial might was built up on million death of starvation.

Being a great power is profitable, building a great power is ruthless.
Is Indian public willing to pay the price? Or does the Indian public even realise that there is a heavy price to pay for those military and economic muscle?

 

[Mad Indian]

@Mad Indian : Shaant Bheem Shaant. BJP will do nothin special for Hindus, it was given even before it came to power. But people support BJP, because the alternative for "do nothin for Hindus" BJP is blatantly anti Hindu Opposition. So BJP is sane option until, true RW party comes into existence of which I have dim hope

Wrong thread, but I agree with what you are saying. Buy that does not mean we should give up. We should vote to Bjp as the least worst option but constantly push them for actual results. Only then, the politicians will have an incentive to become right wing. Once we can force that, we will have a true RW party to vote for and at that time, we have ditch BJP like a leper

 

[TrueSpirit2]

After reading all the comments in the above, I found one thing was missing in the mind of everyone: the cost, the most important factor in everyone's strategic calculation.
None of the great powers today did not pay great cost on their way to be great power:
Hundreds thousands of white Americans died on their way to the west.
620,000 American men died in their civil war, which was around 2% of her total population at the time;
In 18th centuries, more than 40% British textile workers would be dead within 10 years from the day one of factory;
Japanese peasants contributed 60%-70% of their harvest to government to build up industries;
Soviet industrial might was built up on million death of starvation.

Being a great power is profitable, building a great power is ruthless.
Is Indian public willing to pay the price? Or does the Indian public even realise that there is a heavy price to pay for those military and economic muscle?

Yeah.....someone missed the Big Leap :biggrin2:

 

[no smoking]

Yeah.....someone missed the Big Leap :biggrin2:

Chinese paid lot more than just Big Leap:

31 years civil war
8 years Sino-Japan war
Great Leap
Cultural revolution

 

[AnantS]

India has paid much more than China ... India did not get things on platter. Though I am glad that Indian Govt did not slaughter their own free thinking citizens into submission and convert them into bots like ChicaGovt did. But then I wont be wasting my time explaining to programmed China bots.

goto HAILCPC;

@Mad Indian : I agree with your sentiments , but I feel online rant in congispeak against them gives chuckles in the heart of Pakis,Congis & pAAPiyas. CRiticize them left right center but also throw in what right "right wing party" ought to do jmvho

 

[pmaitra]

I have to say one thing about PRC. They came to the point they are in after a lot of sacrifices, discipline, and hard work. I also notice that PRC refrains from making bellicose statements despite being quite powerful in many aspects.

 

[AnantS]

PRC does not make bellicose statements? Sorry, that his highly incredulous statement ! The very nature of communist nations is to boast their power or make tall claims, so that their citizens can be ensured that liberty and freedom they had to give up has lead to "superpowerdom". The kind of holocaust that mad-man Mao had committed on its own people, was tried in India, you will have civil war in your hands. You need to just ponder through our history... Even Mughals/Islamic Invaders did not find it easy , they might have been able to commit genocide on indigenous populace,. But that very genocide often led to violent end of their regimes. So much hate exists for them and their actions, people emotions can be whipped up till today, no matter how much various previous Govt's, tried to whitewash history.

 

[pmaitra]

@AnantS, Mao's days are gone. With recent skirmishes with the west, PRC has kept its rhetoric to the minimum.