Crisis in Tibet - Opression and Human rights violations by China

ahmedsid

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The Chinese Exercises recently are meant at showing force to their own people, that if any trouble erupts in any region in china, the army can reach there. I dont think China plans to face India with 50000 Soldiers. Correct me if I am wrong, the Chinese are a bit shaken by the recent show by the uighurs. Its not directed towards India I feel.
 

macintosh

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Don't know about war over Tibet(I mean it is probably impossible unless the war will be started by China itself) but yesterday while watching Times Now ( at 9:30 the discussion show with anchor pranav and topic was "Why is china not giving official comments on report of Dismembering India" ) they had an Indian guest(Forgot it's name) .When he was asked about China's subversive activities in North-east he said India had done similar activities in Tibet. I don't know if he really knew about it but that was something I was not anticipating. If he was true and if India will continue to play these subversive activities in Tibet then a Limited War with China over Tibet may be possible.
 

Ray

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Atiśa Dipankara Shrijnana (Bengali: অতীশ দীপঙ্কর শ্রীজ্ঞান Ôtish Dipôngkor Srigên) (980-1054 CE) was a Buddhist teacher from the Pala Empire who, along with Konchog Gyalpo and Marpa, was one of the major figures in the establishment of the Sarma lineages in Tibet after the repression of Buddhism by King Langdarma (Glang Darma).

So, is Tibet a part of Bengal?

That could be so, if the Chinese logic that Arunachal is Southern Tibet!
 

badguy2000

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The Chinese Exercises recently are meant at showing force to their own people, that if any trouble erupts in any region in china, the army can reach there. I dont think China plans to face India with 50000 Soldiers. Correct me if I am wrong, the Chinese are a bit shaken by the recent show by the uighurs. Its not directed towards India I feel.
the exercises of PLA is to test the rapid action capacity of PLA.

it is the duty of paratroops called " armed police " to deal with domestic trouble like Uyghur thugs.

PLA's duty is to deal with threaten from foreign countries.
 

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This is what B. Raman has to say regarding military exercise Stride-2009. Highlighted the relevant portions with respect to Indian concerns.

Stride--2009--- China's Largest Ever Long-Range Military Exercise

By B. Raman

Four Divisions of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China with a total strength of about 50,000 troops and drawn from the Shenyang, Lanzhou, Jinan and Guangzhou military regions have embarked on a military exercise code-named Stride--- 2009 since August 11,2009. The exercise is due to last for two months. The exercise has been projected by the "Global Times" (August 12,2009) as China's largest ever, long-range military exercise.

2. Under this exercise, a Division of the Shenyang Military Region in the North-East will move to the Lanzhou Military Region in the North-West and a Division from the Lanzhou Region will move to the Shenyang Region. Similarly, two Divisions from the Jinan and the Guangzhou military Regions will exchange places. It is not clear from available details carried by the Government and Party controlled Chinese media whether the four Divisions will remain in their new place of deployment after the exercise or they will move back to their original place of deployment.

3. The objective of the exercise has been described as to test the ability of the Divisions to move rapidly from an area where they were raised and trained to an area to which they were not used. The objective is also to train the troops to fight anywhere, anytime and under any conditions. The exercise will also test the ability of the troops to deal with natural disasters in any part of the country. Another important aim is to test the new road, rail and air infrastructure raised by China in recent years and examine their capacity to support such large-scale movements without causing much inconvenience to the civilian population

4. The Lanzhou Military Region, one of the seven military regions of China, has under its jurisdiction Xinjiang, Qinghai, Gansu, Ningxia, and Shaanxi and the Ali area of northwest Tibet. The Shenyang Military region covers the Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongiang provinces. It plays an important role in the security of Beijing as well as of the areas bordering on the Russian Far East and North Korea. The Jinan Military region covers the Shandong and Henan provinces. It is responsible for security in one of the most heavily populated and industrialised areas of China. The Guangzhou Military region covers the Guangdong, Guangxi, Hunan, Hebei and Hainan provinces. Inter alia, it is responsible for the security of Hong Kong and its Divisions are specially trained for possible military operations against Taiwan.

5. The three Regions not participating in the exercise are the Beijing, the Nanjing and the Chengdu Military Regions. The Beijing Military Region covers Beijing city, Tianjin city, the Hebei province, the Shanxi province, and the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region. It is mainly responsible for defending China from Mongolia and Russia, and also provides security to Beijing. The Nanjing Military Region covers the Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Anhui, Fujian, and Jiangxi provinces. It is the principal Military Region responsible for operations against Taiwan in the event of a military conflct. Most of the missile units facing Taiwan are believed to be under its control. The Chengdu Military Region covers the Chongqing, Sichuan, Yunnan, Guizhou provinces and the Xizang/Tibet Autonomous Region. It is responsible for security in Tibet and for protecting the border regions with India, Nepal and Myanmar.

6. Thus while the Military Regions responsible for security in Tibet and Beijing and for military operations in Taiwan have not been disturbed during the exercise, the Military Region responsible for security in the recently-disturbed Xinjiang province gas been. One would have thought that the Chinese would be interested in testing the capacity of the newly-laid railway line to Lhasa and the road infrastructure in Tibet to support large-scale and rapid military movements. While the non-participation of the Nanjing Military Region has been seen by Chinese commentators as a confidence-building measure at a time when Beijing's relations with Taiwan are improving, no explanation has been forthcoming for the non-participation of the Chengdu Military Region. One is tempted to speculate whether this has been motivated by a desire not to cause undue alarm in India.

7. Citing the Government-controlled Xinhua news agency, the "Global Times" reported as follows: “This is the first cross-region long-range training maneuver involving troops from four military area commands,” an anonymous (unidentified) officer at the PLA Headquarters of General Staff was quoted by Xinhua as saying. “The exercise is to test the overall combat capability and long-range mobility of our army in information-based situations,” he said. According to the plan, 80 per cent of the 50,000 troops and 60,000 weapons, equipment and vehicles will be transported to the target area by railway and motorized maneuvers. Civil passenger and cargo aircraft will be deployed for the first time to transport troops and weapons. The drill marks a huge breakthrough in the history of Chinese military training, in which the armies are crossing geographical boundaries to fight in unfamiliar areas, a military specialist in Beijing surnamed Chen told the Global Times. “The capability for greater coordination, joint operations and long-range force projection will be tested,” Chen said."

8. The paper added: "Nanjing Military Area Command, one of the seven military commands in China and covering areas close to Taiwan, was not included in the drill. Military experts interpreted the absence of Nanjing Military Command as “the mainland showing goodwill to Taiwan,” Taiwan-based newspaper China Times reported. “This is a friendly gesture from the mainland toward Taiwan and shows cross-Straits relations have further eased up,” Li Daguang, a military expert from the National Defense University told the Global Times. Unlike previous military drills, this exercise has not prompted wild speculations by military watchers."

9. It further said: "Since early May, when the PLA Headquarters of the General Staff publicized the information on the planned military drill, foreign media carried factual reports on the military drill, a change from their previous critical or speculative tone. “As the Chinese army is more and more open to the outside world, the mysteries of the army will be unveiled. And there will be fewer and fewer false reports to speculate on the threatening effect of Chinese military drills,” Li said. In addition, the drill aims to test the army’s capacity to cope with large-scale natural disasters. It is not merely for military purposes, he added."

10. China will be observing in a big way the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic of China in October. One would have thought that in the weeks preceding this event they would not disturb four Divisions from their present areas of deployment so that they are available for any emergency if political, ethnic or religious dissidents try to create disturbances. It is a fact that the Chinese have been concerned over the possibility of such disturbances in Tibet and Xinjiang. Since April, they have strengthened preventive measures in those areas. These have been further strengthened in Xinjiang after the Urumqi disturbances in the first week of July. The fact that the Chinese are going ahead with this exercise involving four Divisions reflects their present confidence in their ability to deal with any disturbances that might break out even without the use of these Divisions.

11. The possibility that the long-term significance of this exercise may not be confined to only Chinese territory and may extend beyond its borders is evident from an editorial on the exercise carried by the "Global Times" on August 12 under the title "Build An Army That Suits Modern Requirement". The text of the editorial is annexed.

(The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: [email protected])
 

ahmedsid

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the exercises of PLA is to test the rapid action capacity of PLA.

it is the duty of paratroops called " armed police " to deal with domestic trouble like Uyghur thugs.

PLA's duty is to deal with threaten from foreign countries.
Well, what if something big, like a Big uprising comes up? Who comes in? Still the cops?
And which Foreign country in SEA are you gonna face with 50K troops? I mean, I would have bought it if it was like atleast 100,000 Troops.

The only country you got serious problem is India and 50000 troops will not be sufficient when the guns start roaring!
 

Ray

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One has to observe the rapid modernisation of the Chinese defence and they have not hesitated in stealing secrets from the world over to progress her indigenous military industry.

China, while romping ahead in the economic field has not cared for the western regions of China since they are not really what they called ‘cooked barbarians’. The economic disparity between coastal and western China is worth notice.

To be a global player as China wants to establish, it must first have regional hegemony. They impediment to such a dream is India.

Therefore, if again like 1962, China can humiliate India once again, then she is on the way to challenging the US.

Therefore, it is essential that if India has some self pride, she arms to be capable of taking on China , be it in conjunction with a China Pakistan thrust or any attempt to divide India into 30 segments as the strategic paper suggested.

It is time that we quit all this Gandhigiri and get cracking with relpolitik Tibet and Xinjiang are ripe fruits!
 

Ray

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They used their Airborne Corps as per the Report.

Check what OoE said.

it is the duty of paratroops called " armed police " to deal with domestic trouble like Uyghur thugs.
really?

Paratroopers to do police action?

tell it to the marines.

Tell it to the marines

Meaning

A scornful response to a tall and unbelieved story.
 

Flint

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If that's a serious question, the answer is an obvious no.

India has got far better things to do than some misadventure on the roof of the world.
 

Ray

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The Lanzhou Military Region, one of the seven military regions of China, has under its jurisdiction Xinjiang, Qinghai, Gansu, Ningxia, and Shaanxi and the Ali area of northwest Tibet
The exercise is double edged.

Checking reaction to external threat and also internal.

The provinces mentioned have a Muslim majority!

Pan Islamic threat has come to China after the Uighurs chickened them!

No longer are they acting smug and cute!!

Their orifice is burning!
 

Ray

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If that's a serious question, the answer is an obvious no.

India has got far better things to do than some misadventure on the roof of the world.
Like she had in 1962?

What are far better things? Losing territory as we did in 1962?



Adm Sureesh Mehta has more inputs than I have or anyone here has.

His speech should be a caution and we must be prepared!

I don't think war is the answer, but if they can interfere in the NE, what stops us to do the same in Tibet and Xinjiang?
 

macintosh

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Therefore, it is essential that if India has some self pride, she arms to be capable of taking on China , be it in conjunction with a China Pakistan thrust or any attempt to divide India into 30 segments as the strategic paper suggested.

It is time that we quit all this Gandhigiri and get cracking with relpolitik Tibet and Xinjiang are ripe fruits!
But playing proxy wars with China can be a real headache for India. While on one hand China will supress the agitation on their Land with Force, India has a lot of problem already like the Maoist. China can make India Genuflect by supplying Maoists as they are widespread and India is expected by the World to use Democratic means. India can't go out and shoot every villager and tribal to root it out. And then there is ULFA, NDBF and a lot of others in NorthEast. India can't take on China "with relpolitik". China has not only money but the incompetency on part of Indian MP's. India should resist from actively supporting tibet and Xiang people. It should only help other foreign agencies in fomenting trouble there as if now.
 

Flint

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Like she had in 1962?
So India should extract sweet revenge for 1962? I'm sorry but I consider that a really, really dumb move.

Adm Sureesh Mehta has more inputs than I have or anyone here has.

His speech should be a caution and we must be prepared!

I don't think war is the answer, but if they can interfere in the NE, what stops us to do the same in Tibet and Xinjiang?
I"m not sure what you mean by "interefere in the NE", but I'm assuming that you are referring to reports that China is helping NE insurgents.

Well here's my answer: The Capital of the Government of Tibet in exile, is located at Dharamsala, Himachal Pradesh.

Enough said.
 

sayareakd

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it takes years to have capabilites and intentions can be changed overnight.

Chines have got all the capabilites thanks to the tibet train and now they plan to link their borders with high speed trains.

@ray, do we have capabilities to move two or three division in short period of time lets say within 5-7 hours ??
or 10 hours.
 

Flint

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On the political front, I think our best interests will be served by quickly resolving the outstanding border disputes with China.

We need neither idealists, not jingoists. We need pragmatists.
 

Daredevil

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On the political front, I think our best interests will be served by quickly resolving the outstanding border disputes with China.
I'm not sure if China wants to solve border disputes with India. It is believed that they are using this dispute as a pressure point on India and a reason which they want to show if they want to go to war with India for whatever reasons. Regular incursions into the indian held territory is an example for that.

Here is an dated article by Subash Kapila on this matter.

CHINA: THE STRATEGIC RELUCTANCE ON BOUNDARY SETTLEMENT WITH INDIA

By Dr. Subhash Kapila

Introductory Observations

China ever since its emergence as a monolithic Communist state in 1949 was involved in boundary disputes with virtually every nation on its peripheries. It led to border wars with the former Soviet Union, Vietnam and India. In the case of Vietnam and India, the border wars were perceived by China as punitive wars.

China today has undertaken boundary settlements with virtually all countries with which it had disputes with the exception of India.

Some in India hoped that with a generational change in leadership in China and with the economic, political and strategic rise of India, China may be prompted to move towards more accommodative stances on the China-India boundary dispute.

China’s President Hu Jintao would be visiting India from November 20, 2006 for four days. This author has already spelt out in two earlier papers, that in terms of perspectives, China has given no indications that India could expect any significant breakthrough announcements by the Chinese president on the boundary dispute.

The Chinese President’s visit to India in November 2006 will be just one more item in the chronology of China- India relations. A politically correct visit at best.

This paper attempts to analyse the strategic importance of Tawang (read Arunachal Pradesh) which has now emerged in the open as the core issue of China’s reluctance on the border dispute settlement.

China’s Endless Round of Border Dispute Negotiations

Endless rounds of border dispute negotiations have taken place between China and India. These have taken place at two levels, namely:

Joint Working Group (JWG) discussions which commenced in 1988
Special Representatives talks at the level of India’s National Security Advisers and Chinese Vice Minister level since June 2003.
The JWG has already completed over fifteen rounds of discussions. The Special Representatives held Seventh Round of talks in March 2006.

The standard responses after each round have been of the type that was stated in March 2006: “The two Special Representative continued their discussions for an agreed framework for the resolution of the boundary question in a constructive and friendly atmosphere”.

Chinese leaders on visits to India come out with the oft-repeated statement that the boundary dispute should be left to future generations to resolve and meanwhile China-India relations in other fields should move forward. This is just an excuse to keep alive the border dispute as a strategic pressure point against India.

This leads to the question whether China is really serious about resolution of the China-India border dispute?

The endless round of negotiations does not suggest so.

It is best exemplified by an Indian media news report that no meetings have been scheduled between Indian and Chinese Special Representatives for talks on the boundary dispute before the visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao on November 20 “as India doesn’t expect any substantive progress on the border issue in the near future.”

Symbolically, China’s reluctance can be read as dissatisfaction with growing US-India strategic relationship and keeping alive the border dispute as a strategic pressure point against India.

Obviously China is actively involved in delays and prolonging the resolution of the boundary disputes for strategic reasons.

China’s Strategic Reluctance on Boundary Settlement with India

Veiled references in the past were made by Indian official spokesmen that progress could not be made as China was constantly pressurizing India to accept a swap by India of Tawang in lieu of Aksai-Chin.

China has now come out in the open to demand and advocate this proposal. An Indian news-report covering the closed door meeting organized between Chinese distinguished experts and Indian academics by China’s Institute of Asia-Pacific Studies, which is part of the giant official Chinese Academy of Social Sciences had this to report:

Chinese experts said that China would be magnanimous on the issue of Aksai Chin area if India agreed to give up Tawang.
The high-level Chinese experts which included former Chinese Ambassador to India Chen Rui Sheng made it clear that the border dispute could be solved if India handed over Tawang to China.
The Strategic Importance of Tawang for India

At the outset it must be made clear that for the Chinese, Tawang is not just the Tawang Monastery region. For them Tawang implies the whole of India’s Arunachal Pradesh. So as not to dilute their claim, they officially will not call it that Arunachal Pradesh should be returned to them.

Coming to the strategic importance of Arunachal Pradesh or Tawang in Chinese parlance the following need to be recognized:

Arunachal Pradesh provides strategic depth to India’s Brahmaputra Valley and India’s other North Eastern states.
Arunachal Pradesh provides security to Bhutan on it entire Eastern flank by geographical contiguity.
Bhutan would be then be in a pincer group of China on both it flanks if Tawang is given away. This would be detrimental to India’s security.
China’s borders would then rest on the plains of Assam; India might as well write off its other North Eastern states.
The Chinese obsession with the Tawang Region is totally strategic in its aims.
In any future conflict with China and if India singly or in coalition with some other power develops offensive capabilities against China, this region offers the shortest cut to China proper and to Tibet.
India’s communications infrastructure in this region developed in World War II for US military aid to China is existent and can be further improved.
Arunachal Pradesh offers all-wealthier lines of communication to India for military needs to the Tibet border as compared to Aksai-Chin.
In terms of any air operations by China in this region, Arunachal Pradesh would provide multi-layered air defence deployments on the ground as deterrence.
The region is rich in terms of mineral and natural resources prospects.
There are many more reasons that one can state but the major ones should be enough. Arunachal Pradesh is of vital strategic importance for the territorial integrity and defence of India’s North East states and should be non-negotiable.

Concluding Observations

China would be politically naive of it perceives that in the 21st Century, a powerfully rising India would accept the bait of a Chinese strategic barter of Aksai-Chin in lieu of Tawang (read Arunachal Pradesh)

India would be more politically naive than China if it thinks that China would concede the area of Aksai-Chin through which passes its lifelines to keep Xinjiang under Chinese control.

Both in Aksai Chin and in the Arunachal Pradesh area, the strategic interests of China and India clash in the most intense manner. It would be a magical wonder if China can turn around to be strategically accommodative of India’s strategic sensitivities.

China’s strategic reluctances to solve the border dispute with India can therefore be expected to bedevil China-India relations for a long time to come.
 

Ray

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It does take years to build capabilities.

China has done it. They have built the Tibetan Railway over gorges and permafrost and that is no easy task. India is still struggling to connect Srinagar and Ladakh without permafrost!!

It was believed that China would take two seasons to muster forces to take on India, but with three rail links, it will be one season. China has storage facilities in TAR to have reserves of all items of war materiel and food.

Mobilisation is not feasible in the time frame of 4 to even 10 hours. It must be understood that apart from loading up for war by the units and there are many units involved, there has to be road space management and every unit cannot just jump in and go! Managing a war is not what is seen on the Internet forums.

China has been financing and supporting and still does so the insurgents in the NE. The capital of the exiled Tibetan government is not material to the issue. If they can agitate the NE. so can we the Uighurs and Tibetans and that is what I am talking about!

Proxy wars are cheaper than real wars. Yes, China could play games with us too and like it or not, they are still at it. So why not pay them back in their own coin?

The NE insurgency was a US ploy with the Baptist Mission. Then the Chinese took over. Since we are cosying up with the US, it has cooled down!
 

Ray

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On the political front, I think our best interests will be served by quickly resolving the outstanding border disputes with China.

We need neither idealists, not jingoists. We need pragmatists.
Any suggestions?

What is the Chinese view?

If it was that easy should it not have been solved much earlier?

It is not jingoism, it is should we surrender our view?

Are we wrong in our views?

If we are, then the issue is solved! QED!

Please answer that!

I take it that you are suggesting that Tibet has always been a part of China and India is the trouble creator!
 

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No big secret here. Take a look around where there are bases, North West China is the ONLY place where you can play to your heart's content without disturbing too many people's sleep.

The exercise has been announced for sometime and it's aimed to solve several tactical and logistical issues brought on by the problems identified during the Schian Earthquakes.

One thing clearly not addressed is still the reliance on the civilian transportation network, especially rail. That was one of the short comings identified during the Earthquakes.

As for the originial point, I don't see it. For Tibet to be an issue, it would have to be a million man fight ... and neither side is interested.
 

Flint

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I'll remind you that India's official stand on Tibet says that it is indeed a part of China.

Now, we already have considerable leverage in the form of the Dalai Lama. I think that is enough for negotiating purposes, without trying to actively foment trouble in that province, or attempting to capture Lhasa.

I take it that you are suggesting that Tibet has always been a part of China and India is the trouble creator!
 

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