Crisis in Tibet - Opression and Human rights violations by China

[Ray]

It is alright to feel that the author is a US govt employee/ paid by the US Govt.

However, given the present aggressive moves of the PRC along its seas and the border, especially with India, it would be rather cavalier of India to dismiss China's actions as straws in the wind.

Indeed, we should not be a cat's paw for western interests, but can we also, for the sake of peace at all costs ignore the Chinese Defence Minister's Liang Guanglie atatement in an interview published by several state-backed newspapers in China:


"In the coming five years, our military will push forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction,"

Those who feel that there should be peace at all costs could analyse this statement of the Chinese Defence Minister and advise what India should do.

 

[kickok1975]

It is alright to feel that the author is a US govt employee/ paid by the US Govt.

However, given the present aggressive moves of the PRC along its seas and the border, especially with India, it would be rather cavalier of India to dismiss China's actions as straws in the wind.

Indeed, we should not be a cat's paw for western interests, but can we also, for the sake of peace at all costs ignore the Chinese Defence Minister's Liang Guanglie atatement in an interview published by several state-backed newspapers in China:


"In the coming five years, our military will push forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction,"

Those who feel that there should be peace at all costs could analyse this statement of the Chinese Defence Minister and advise what India should do.

India should continue strengthen her defense capability to protect India's interest and face any potential threat. The best way to achieve it is by developing indigenous defense industry instead on relying on expensive foreign purchase. But it's also prudent for GOI not overspending on military because of western media's scary tactics. After all, continue focusing on economic development and improving people's living standard are still top priority.

 

[Ray]

There is no doubt that India should not be too concerned with nudges from the western media or western think tanks.

However, when the Chinese Defence Minister states what he has stated, coming close on the heels of the Chinese General's article, India cannot help but be concerned.

Such outpourings of Chinese policy makers and implementers does create a doubt in the Indian mind wherein they are forced to believe that all western comments are not mere propaganda and instead in them lies substantial truth.

In such a situation, one is naturally in a quandary.

 

[houde10000]

1) Great, Indian people are smart, can find out the truth, proxy war!!!

2) American want to be No.1 forever, they won't allow russian, chinese, indian, whatever nation to catch up them, whenever a nation get close, american will do somethings to stop it. If you believe India can really rise, you are better to prepare for american black hand early.

3) Tibet is part of China, you can simply visit any world famous library, ask for 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th century Asian map, and map published before 1950, then you will know who is liar!!!

4) Tibetan is also chinese citizen, even Dalai Lama, he was born in Qinghai Province, a no-doubt chinese province, his parents are Haned Tibetan, only speak Manderian, not tibetan. 14th Dalai Lama was chosen according traditional religious rule, and then escorted by Qinghai warloard Ma's troop to Lasa, the capital of Tibet. Dalai Lama, himself is nobody before the Chinese Center Govornment accept him as Dalai Lama.

5) Before 1959 religious reform, Tibetan living in Midieval time, 90% land property in Lama and noble family hand, 95% Tibetan population are serf. the serf masters, of course, Dalai Lama is one of them, has right to sell, torture, kill their serf. If you want to know the truth, simply visit any famous library, search book about Tibet published before 1950 (it is very important, search book published before 1950, you know what i mean)

6) Dalai Lama the shit was collected to make pill for his people as medicine, of course, nobody force the tibetan people to buy, they just believe Dalai Lama is their Bodhisattva, they are very very happy to donate all their family have to get the shit pill. Yes, it is Tibetan tradition culture, be honest, do you think it should be changed? And this horrible thing was not end til Dala Lama fled to India, I don't know he still sell his shit pill in India or not, if not, you Indian government also kill traditional Tibetan culture

Do a quick google search by yourself, before you open mouth say I am a liar.

7) Dalai Lama mean "Guru", tradionally, he need to practise some religious actions, such as make love with 6 years old boy, eat leprosy patient blood, etc. horrible things. Do you thing those should be forbiden? Chinese communist government forbid those in Tibet after 1959, that's one evidence Chinese government destory Tibetan culture.

8) As I know, Chinese doesn't count India as enemy, we only has one target to catch up, USA. But if indian always treat chinese as enemy, then there is no choice for chinese, I don't think the best option for chines is fighting another 1962 war with India. Give money and weapon to support Indian separatists, it will much easy, do you agree? Living in greenhouse, don't throw stone on your neighbor!!!! India has much more and serious domestic strifes than China, as you know over 90% Chinese are Han, how about India, do you have majority nation?

9) Talk to understand each other, much better than fight in a war, right?

 

[jazzguy]

China army in 'conflict' plans

Beijing, Dec. 29: China is preparing for conflict "in every direction", the defence minister said yesterday in remarks that threaten to overshadow a visit to Beijing by his US counterpart next month.

"In the coming five years, our military will push forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction," said Liang Guanglie in an interview published by several state-backed newspapers in China.

"We may be living in peaceful times, but we can never forget war, never send the horses south or put the bayonets and guns away," Liang added.

China repeatedly says it is planning a "peaceful rise" but the recent pace and scale of its military modernisation has alarmed many of its neighbours in the Asia-Pacific, including Japan which described China's military build-up as a "global concern" this month.

Liang's remarks come at a time of increasingly difficult relations between the Chinese and US armed forces which a three-day visit by his counterpart Robert Gates is intended to address.

A year ago China froze substantive military relations in protest at US arms sales to Taiwan and relations deteriorated further this summer when China objected to US plans to deploy one of its nuclear supercarriers, the USS George Washington, into the Yellow Sea off the Korean peninsula.

China also announced this month that it was preparing to launch its own aircraft carrier next year in a signal that China is determined to punch its weight as a rising superpower. The news came a year earlier than many US defence analysts had predicted.

China is also working on a "carrier-killing" ballistic missile that could sink US carriers from afar, fundamentally reordering the balance of power in a region that has been dominated by the US since the end of World War II.

A US Navy commander, Admiral Robert Willard, told Japan's Asahi Shimbun newspaper this week that he believes the Chinese anti-ship missile, the Dong Feng 21, has already achieved "initial operational capability", although it would require years of testing.

Analysts remain divided over whether China is initiating an Asian arms race. Even allowing for undeclared spending, China's annual defence budget is still less than one-sixth of America's $663 billion a year, or less than half the US figure when expressed as a percentage of GDP.

However in a speech earlier this year Gates warned that China's new weapons, including its carrier-killing missile, "threaten America's primary way to project power and help allies in the Pacific", underscoring the difficulties that lie ahead as China and the US seek to contain growing strategic frictions.

As China modernises, Liang pledged that its armed forces would also increasingly use homegrown Chinese technology.
THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
China Readies for Conflict

Here is what Mr. Liang said in Chinese for next five years plan ""十二五"æ—¶æœŸï¼Œæˆ‘们将坚持以党的创新理论为指导，以新时期军事战略方针为统揽，按照国防和军队现代化"三步走"çš„战略构想，围绕2020年前基本实现机械化并使信息化建设取得重大进展的目标，以科学发展为主题，以加快转变战斗力生成模式为主线，努力提高部队以打赢信息化条件下局部战争能力为核心的完成多样化军事任务能力，全面履行新世纪新阶段历史使命，不辜负党和人民的期望与重托"

Anybody understanding Chinese language should know the west media purposely distort the translation. Chinese has talk about this for about thirty years. The main idea is to upgrade army capability to win a local conflict under information condition. (It originally came from a design to win a local war across Taiwan straight with US intervene.) What do you want Chinese to do? If they don't openly state their intention, you will say they are not transparent. If they tell you their plan, you will distort it.

 

[Ray]

The Chinese rarely says anything openly.

Therefore, when they do, it appears alarming.

Note Deng dictum - "hide your ambitions and disguise your claws".

Though known behind his back as xiao pingzi, he orchestrated China's rise!

 

[jazzguy]

China is now adapting a policy called transparent policy in order to eliminate other countries concerns over China development. The methods include having media spokemen in all departments to publish news and policy as well as interview of ministers. What Chinese defence minister says during the interview is just a repeat of defence white paper published every year.

 

[Ray]

Could you give a link to the Chinese Defence White Paper that is published every year?

That would be helpful.

 

[Ray]

1) Great, Indian people are smart, can find out the truth, proxy war!!!

Didn't get the drift.

2) American want to be No.1 forever, they won't allow russian, chinese, indian, whatever nation to catch up them, whenever a nation get close, american will do somethings to stop it. If you believe India can really rise, you are better to prepare for american black hand early.

Let America rise, let China rise. Let them be both #1.

Good luck to them!

I personally don't subscribe to the idea of India trying to be #1 in the world. All India should do is that it can work for its people and make them have a better life as also protect the country from external and internal threats.

3) Tibet is part of China, you can simply visit any world famous library, ask for 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th century Asian map, and map published before 1950, then you will know who is liar!!!

We have gone through this many a time.

It has now become a which came first - egg or the chicken - type of a slanging match.

4) Tibetan is also chinese citizen, even Dalai Lama, he was born in Qinghai Province, a no-doubt chinese province, his parents are Haned Tibetan, only speak Manderian, not tibetan. 14th Dalai Lama was chosen according traditional religious rule, and then escorted by Qinghai warloard Ma's troop to Lasa, the capital of Tibet. Dalai Lama, himself is nobody before the Chinese Center Govornment accept him as Dalai Lama.

If Dalai Lama is a Chinese citizen, then why is he denied entry?

Why should the Tibetans be Hanised?

Are the minorities in China not good enough to be Chinese citizens without their becoming a cooked Han?

And if Dalai Lama was Hanised, then what all this going on? He should be more amenable to the Han view and yet he is not!

5) Before 1959 religious reform, Tibetan living in Midieval time, 90% land property in Lama and noble family hand, 95% Tibetan population are serf. the serf masters, of course, Dalai Lama is one of them, has right to sell, torture, kill their serf. If you want to know the truth, simply visit any famous library, search book about Tibet published before 1950 (it is very important, search book published before 1950, you know what i mean)

Whether they were serf or otherwise is debatable. Even in China there were landlords and serfs. Therefore, it may not be wise to superimpose historical examples to demolish the current.

Read Ohimalaya (a respected Chinese poster here on DFI) post on Maomas. The old feels that Mao days were great and Deng brought misery. Does it mean that what the old says of China is a true representation? I wonder.

6) Dalai Lama the shit was collected to make pill for his people as medicine, of course, nobody force the tibetan people to buy, they just believe Dalai Lama is their Bodhisattva, they are very very happy to donate all their family have to get the shit pill. Yes, it is Tibetan tradition culture, be honest, do you think it should be changed? And this horrible thing was not end til Dala Lama fled to India, I don't know he still sell his shit pill in India or not, if not, you Indian government also kill traditional Tibetan culture

Do a quick google search by yourself, before you open mouth say I am a liar.

You are entitled to your views. However, Tibetan medicine and its effects would be lost on you. It has worked wonders on many and it is practised here by the Tibetans and I have seen huge queues in front of such dispensaries at Salagura in West Bengal, India and it included many foreigners.

Apparently, it works.

Chinese medicine is equally exotic. Some may express wonderment and have a bout of nausea over the use of exotic products such as bat excrement and cow urine as medicine or tiger's penis. Or having pins stuck all over. But then, who cares so long it works!

Studying unusual foods has long been the province of anthropologists and archaeologists. The kinds of meat and other unusual foods used and the occasions on which they are served showcase important aspects of a culture. In Chinese cuisine, such foods are most often markers of special events. Bird's nest, shark's fin, and sea cucumber have long been important presentation dishes at Chinese banquets. Bear's paw, monkey head mushrooms, jelly fish, and hair seaweed are also served on important and lesser occasions.

The Chinese eat dogs and it was banned during the Olympics.

Chinese staple is Pig. In the Middle East, it would cause revulsion to even shake hands with the Chinese. Would that be correct?

The important thing to note is that while all this may be odd to others, it is not so to the Chinese. Therefore, to superimpose one's own ideas on another culture or tradition does not uphold the actuals.

7) Dalai Lama mean "Guru", tradionally, he need to practise some religious actions, such as make love with 6 years old boy, eat leprosy patient blood, etc. horrible things. Do you thing those should be forbiden? Chinese communist government forbid those in Tibet after 1959, that's one evidence Chinese government destory Tibetan culture.

Rather odd is your argument justifying the forced demise of Tibetan culture. By that token, the west would be correct to destroy Chinese culture and tradition since they eat dogs, snakes, bear's paw, cats, tiger's penis etc etc.

No, I don't think such flimsy grounds should ruin cultures or destroy it.

8) As I know, Chinese doesn't count India as enemy, we only has one target to catch up, USA. But if indian always treat chinese as enemy, then there is no choice for chinese, I don't think the best option for chines is fighting another 1962 war with India. Give money and weapon to support Indian separatists, it will much easy, do you agree? Living in greenhouse, don't throw stone on your neighbor!!!! India has much more and serious domestic strifes than China, as you know over 90% Chinese are Han, how about India, do you have majority nation?

Well, indeed giving assistance to the insurgents in India is the best way. And the Chinese are doing it. Hide your ambition and disguise your claws all the way!

We go back to the issue of Han China which I wanted to avoid since it clutters the clarity of discussions. Why say 90% are Hans in China? The percentage is more. But most are not original Hans! They are colonised people who have been made to forget forcibly their roots as you are trying to do in Tibet and Xinjaing.

In India, we have many religions, cultures, peoples etc. It makes an ideal chemistry for separatists to fight real and imagined wrongs! That is the weakness of democracy where suppression is not the answer pr feasible. That is why Arundhuti Roy, Varavara Rao, Gootam Nawalakha and others are going scot free when they should be treated like Liu Xiaobo in China. Can't do it here what China can do in China. Human Rights will swarm all over you here in India!!

9) Talk to understand each other, much better than fight in a war, right?

Wrong.

 

[jazzguy]

Could you give a link to the Chinese Defence White Paper that is published every year?

That would be helpful.

http://english.gov.cn/official/2005-08/17/content_24165.htm

 

[Ray]

Jazzguy.

Thanks.

The few times the Defence Policy has been stated, it is mere generalised statements.

No details per se.

Still going through them.

Nonetheless, thanks once again.

 

[visso]

undeniable fact: Tibet is part of china hundreds of years before a integrated india

http://english.gov.cn/official/2005-08/17/content_24165.htm

tibet is part of china hundreds of years before a integrated india, undeialbly long before USA is formed

 

[visso]

quotes:""And if Dalai Lama was Hanised, then what all this going on? He should be more amenable to the Han view and yet he is not!""
Because the Dalai Lama is indianlized!! He actualy want to get his serfdom back! While the CPC are against it. So he want indian clama to cry his rule back! and india also want to have a leg in it. they are dreaming it!!

 

[LurkerBaba]

tibet is part of china hundreds of years before a integrated india, undeialbly long before USA is formed

1. Tibet was only a part of China in the Qing and Yuag era (both non Han)

2.India was first unified under the Mauryan period (~300BC)

 

[visso]

notes:"We go back to the issue of Han China which I wanted to avoid since it clutters the clarity of discussions. Why say 90% are Hans in China? The percentage is more. But most are not original Hans! They are colonised people who have been made to forget forcibly their roots as you are trying to do in Tibet and Xinjaing"
American can't Americanize Afhganitis, nor they can Americanize Iraqis! the reason also goes with china. we are hanized because we have thausands of years as a integrated nation that's more than india can compare, which enjoy a politically intigrated entity after the British colonizers retreated decades of years ago,yet it call the southen tibet is its!!! and call it Arunacal predaph!!

 

[tarunraju]

tibet is part of china hundreds of years before a integrated india, undeialbly long before USA is formed

Undeniable fact: People's Republic of China was formed only in 1948.

Modern India and China were formed only 60~62 years ago, what they were before is moot. Pakistan was part of pre-Modern India, so was Bangladesh, ancient Indian kingdoms had their territory extended over Afghanistan and Cambodia. Yet, we don't cite outdated and dubious "documents" or poorly drawn maps to lay claims to territory we don't control.

 

[Ray]

quotes:""And if Dalai Lama was Hanised, then what all this going on? He should be more amenable to the Han view and yet he is not!""
Because the Dalai Lama is indianlized!! He actualy want to get his serfdom back! While the CPC are against it. So he want indian clama to cry his rule back! and india also want to have a leg in it. they are dreaming it!!

That is a extraordinary statement.

In India, even Indians are not Indianised in the aspects that would be covered by the term 'Hanised'. We all hold our independent identity, culture, tradition and language, apart from other issues. India is a term we are identified with to the outer world, encompassing all our individual aspects and we project a homogeneous whole.

No one has forced us to be Indians. And no one has broken or attempted to break our individual identity or our singular characteristics and force us to adopt a avatar of an India.

If Indians are nor 'cooked' into being Indian as the barbarians and outer people of China were 'cooked' to become Han, then how could Dalai Lama become Indianised? If such a thought is rampant in China, then it is indicates a high state of propaganda based on false premises.

How was there no Feudalism in China?

The undermentioned is the modern method of serfdom.

China's rulers have a time-tested penchant for attempting the impossible. After the founding of the People's Republic in 1949, they tried to industrialize and communize the economy through mass coercion, and produced not equality but a totalitarian state and mass starvation. For the past two decades, they have attempted something no less impossible: to create the outline of a capitalist economy (with private property and freedom of enterprise) without free association or a modicum of free speech.

That is also neo serfdom, where men are not free and instead have to obey the CCP diktats!

 

[Ray]

Undeniable fact: People's Republic of China was formed only in 1948.

Modern India and China were formed only 60~62 years ago, what they were before is moot. Pakistan was part of pre-Modern India, so was Bangladesh, ancient Indian kingdoms had their territory extended over Afghanistan and Cambodia. Yet, we don't cite outdated and dubious "documents" or poorly drawn maps to lay claims to territory we don't control.

If we were to resort such slim behaviour, I presume all of SE Asia would be India!!

 

[neoshangh]

Could you give a link to the Chinese Defence White Paper that is published every year?

That would be helpful.

http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/8119829.html

Use Google translation,and press the download buton.

English edition.

2008 is the latest edition.

 

[amoy]

Let's see Tibet through prism of 'Human Rights'.

When Dalai Lama fled to India, Chairman Mao said in response to the uproar against China's extinguishing the revolt in Tibet, "Some people's hearts go to the 'minority', but they are not sympathetic with the 'majority'".

Minority - Dalai Lama's theocratic regime /monasteries / aristocrats (big land owners) as "white bones".
Majority - groaning Serfs (so-called black bones), born as serfs generation after generation, landless and their lives could have been deprived of by their owners... and owners even enjoyed droit de seigneur with female serfs.

When I visited a Tibetan village years ago in Mount. Four-Girl, I saw relics of a demolished temple. At the moment, I felt pitiful about the " destruction" of religion and culture. In old days only monks could receive education in monasteries. which in turn were preaching Veda or Dharma to justify such a social structure.

But later I have gained another perspective - yes perhaps many people need Buddha/Lama alike for spiritual comfort and so created all that along with visible symbols like towers or temples. But in an epiphany some stood up on their own breaking all those 'shackles' and achieving "spiritual independence". That's also called "liberation" and progress towards fulfillment of "human rights".