Constructive criticism of Defence PSUs and OFB

[Pulkit]

Hi All,

Just starting this thread as I have observed that all the organizations working in the defense sector have had more failures than success.
I do not treat Arjun, Tejas LCA, LUH, LCH, UAVs,AEW&C others as a failure, but can they be called a success?

Just wondering, please share your views.

Regards,
PB

 

[Tang]

Hi
Yes all the projects you have mentioned are success because they are getting inducted into the armed forces and have world class features.

Thanks

 

[Bhadra]

*I discussed the shortcomings with F&F all of the last 3 posts.
* "hardest to counter" & "can't be defeated" are different things.

Those are what I said & I think it's pretty safe to assume the others didn't say any of those things either... Go back & keep rereading their posts until you understand.

Amd this part is wrong too.


This is not 1980... During defense the ATGM launcher should ideally be miles behind the line of contact, well out of tank range & keep falling back in case the enemy manages to keep advancing.

To IA higher officers Bhoop Singh is merely gun-fodder... Or else he shouldn't be firing Carl Gustav at tanks but at the remaining APCs with mech. infantry after ATGMs have taken out the heavies.

Fentastic ! you should apply for Commander Mechanised Forces..
By telling me about how the tank should fire you ahve at laest exposed yourself that you are neither a professional not a so called Scietist.

Tell me which is the bettr way to defend ..
-Tanks are at border and start engaging enemy tanks when those are four km inside their area and then keep falling back.
- Tanks stand four km behind the border and satrt engaging tanks when they appraoch the border line...

And Bhoop Singh is not canon fodder. He is the only hero of the Lord Vishnu's Vasundahara. He fires 84 mm RL to cover move of BMP / Tank in the face of enemy as also covers BMP's ass when it is not able to fire a missiles due to minimum range.. Do you know that 84mm RL HEAT also has minimum range..

I indulged in discussion with you considering I will learn something as you posed very knowledgeable. Nevertheless. thank for the Music...

 

[Bhadra]

You know how old this video is?.. Some impressive precision displayed here hitting such tiny target.

You call that tiny target.... you have good sense of humor...

Tell me a top attack missile starts gaining trajectory the moment it is fired. But it does not hit the rotors . Why >??

 

[Bhadra]

This looks like DRDO's own demo video... So do we assume the info here to be correct?

You have been caught ....

 

[Bhadra]

Update of manpads . ........
I have reason to believe this.....as recently a tender was released for low altitude proximity...may be for this one ...not sure ....

Make what ever they can ... all will appreciate that..
But such dramas should not become a reason for not equipping the soldiers for their operational requirements. Nor should such efforts be reasons for rationing the forces.
We are in this business for last sixty years but can make a low proximity fuze...

Waht is use of making a tank with 80 percent foreign components and costlier than best tank in the world ?

What is use of making a helicopter with 70 percent foreign components ...

DRDO is trying their bast but will never make MPATGM. They can make SANTA and Banta missiles but not that is required... a simple effective MPATGM that can fire at 2.5 km without doing any LOL... where initial requirement is more than 80000....

In the current military operational milieu and the likely urabn insugency that will force Indian forces into difficult MOUT. those SANTA BANTA or HELINA or DHRUVA etc are not going to be useful... No one fires a missile into a house in your own cities from 25 km away.... Nor RUDRA or ALH will be ever used to kill two terrorists inside a house ...

 

[Bhadra]

Sir ji leave.....don't get personal please...you all are knowledgeable ....but please maintain your dignity...all have different opinions.
When he says this video is from drdo.... particular that video is not from drdo. But the content shown in that video is from drdo. Not the robotic voice.

I did not start it... he started with that game ... quoting me in the wrong context ...
But I will not flame bait ..

 

[Bhadra]

Neither. This is not 1980.
20km ranged SANT will be operational in few years...
MPATGM can be remotely mounted...
Namica can fire backwards, while shoot&scoot...
NAG based loitering winged-warhead won't need further guidance...

The gun-fodders to be dubbed heros are victims of IA's outdated doctrine that refuses to acknowledge technological advancements... If a tank battle happened against APS mounted tanks of Chinks right now, Lord Vishnu's Vasundhara would be littered with roasted alive heros like Bhup Singh in toasted tincans.



That's why I asked. I hadn't seen this before. The graphics looked like a Defexpo video but the voice-over didn't seem original.

Which movie are you planning or dreaming ...

 

[noobmaster69]

Make what ever they can ... all will appreciate that..
But such dramas should not become a reason for not equipping the soldiers for their operational requirements. Nor should such efforts be reasons for rationing the forces.
We are in this business for last sixty years but can make a low proximity fuze...

Waht is use of making a tank with 80 percent foreign components and costlier than best tank in the world ?

What is use of making a helicopter with 70 percent foreign components ...

DRDO is trying their bast but will never make MPATGM. They can make SANTA and Banta missiles but not that is required... a simple effective MPATGM that can fire at 2.5 km without doing any LOL... where initial requirement is more than 80000....

In the current military operational milieu and the likely urabn insugency that will force Indian forces into difficult MOUT. those SANTA BANTA or HELINA or DHRUVA etc are not going to be useful... No one fires a missile into a house in your own cities from 25 km away.... Nor RUDRA or ALH will be ever used to kill two terrorists inside a house ...

Santa Banta missile? Why such desperation? If you don't like Indian made products that's fine but why mock the endeavours? Only those succeed who keep on trying. And for killing the terrorist thing... Both the MPATGM and your beloved Santa Banta missile are for different purposes and are both under development so calm down!

 

[Bleh]

Santa Banta missile? Why such desperation? If you don't like Indian made products that's fine but why mock the endeavours? Only those succeed who keep on trying. And for killing the terrorist thing... Both the MPATGM and your beloved Santa Banta missile are for different purposes and are both under development so calm down!

That's his job here... Just report it for flamebait & move on.

 

[noobmaster69]

That's his job here... Just report it for flamebait & move on.

Done. Thanks!

 

[LurkerBaba]

"The GSQR was prepared by me as Director Para & SF in 1998/99. Heavy drop platform developed now after 22 years, when IL 76 are in the last leg,"


DRDO needs better project management. OFB on the other hand can't be "fixed" easily

 

[Kumata]

"The GSQR was prepared by me as Director Para & SF in 1998/99. Heavy drop platform developed now after 22 years, when IL 76 are in the last leg,"


DRDO needs better project management. OFB on the other hand can't be "fixed" easily

PM... ask babus, they will be at sea and will start googling the moment they have "Project management". fact remains that those with zeal to do work get tired in endless beaurocracy and choose to let go of their patriotism for better peace of mind...

Barring Sh APJ .. and few 5-6 more names, I have no hopes anywhere.. remember Nambiar ... All need to be privatised and sold out to L & T and other good companies...

Apologies for being sarcastic but could not resist...

 

[noobmaster69]

I said I appreciate that...
But I would have appreciated more and realistically if the product was at hand rather than fancy pictures and videos..
Desperation comes to users because due t such claims the user is kept away from buying those items...
Desperation comes because MPATGM is not a fancy item but a basic weapon which has reamined in photos for sixty years and still is in photo only..

At times it even appears sabotage...

The user is kept away from buying those items? Really? Isn't the Indian Army using French and Isreali ATGMs both of second and third generation for the purpose? And isn't it true that the last time in the 60s too an Indigenous effort was killed off to make way for the exact reason you are complaining about, providing the users with a solution(just like how the indigenous aerospace industry was scrapped to make way for more Mig-21s, Mig-27s and Jaguars side by side)? The bigger reason why we are unable to buy many critical products is because our Economy is not that great and it's not hidden from anyone. If you have less equipments do you think the developers of these Indigenous systems have enough funds at their disposal for R&D or even outside the defence circle, aren't the civilians suffering too? We are hit by a pandemic the mankind has not seen since a hundred years and our medical system is poorly funded... Why? Because of the poor economy! Please forgive me if i am stepping on your nerves here but most folks in this country are struggling because of poor economic condition of the country. And whenever a multimillion multibillion dollars deal is signed with a foriegn firm very valuable foriegn ecchange reserve flows outside of the country which, not in a single day of course, but slowly and progressively, needs to be stopped! And that will happen only when all the concerned parties co operate with one another despite challenges instead of mocking each other and throwing tantrums and Santa Banta jokes at each other. We are not USA or France either by economic proportions or by technological expertise so of course our products are not going to be as good but still apart from silver bullets we need to operate in mass the best versions of whatever we can develope and produce because in the end it's going to be the only way out; unless of course you want the nation to turn into another Pakistan where the military and its wings gobble up most of the economy for their well being and leave the civilians in dust because as they have demonstrated it themselves, it's not a very sustainable policy. The protectors of the nation can not be the real protectors if they are not defending the economic prosperity as well. And one last thing, i am not writing this to support the PSUs. If they do not deliver then whatever needs to be done must be enacted. I guess i have gone on for too much so thank you!

 

[porky_kicker]

"The GSQR was prepared by me as Director Para & SF in 1998/99. Heavy drop platform developed now after 22 years, when IL 76 are in the last leg,"


DRDO needs better project management. OFB on the other hand can't be "fixed" easily

I posted it's pic in 2017 , it got the pic from L&T website

And ironically the system was in production even before that .

I can't exactly recollect but as far as I can remember it has been around since 10 years. Maybe more .

The GPS guided version of this system was tested 4 years or so back successfully.

The tweet mentions it is in production , and it doesn't necessarily mean it started production recently . Production is a continuous process.

The generals reaction I believe was a knee-jerk response , you see I don't trust drdo always and neither do I trust the generals always. If you know you know. I can tell you stories how bad things were prior a decade ago. Everybody had their fingers in the pie .

Anyways ofb needs to sold off , and defence PSUs made to compete with Pvt sector without undue privilege. And bureaucrats and generals to be made strictly accountable at all costs .

 

[porky_kicker]

@LurkerBaba

If you ever are in the mood hit me up in private conversation , I will tell you a story or two which will drop your jaws.

And I did a little bit of googling and found out that the above parachute system was used in Army’s Joint exercise ( cope 2009 ) with US Airforce and Vayushakti 2010 at Pokhran. Ironical isn't it ?

And lt general vinod bhatia director para & SF doesn't realise that India does not operate C5 .

Sometimes I really pity my country

 

[Bhadra]

Some private Firms developed it , atleast we need to help them. I don't know what was the role MOD and GOVT , why they didn't ask for Developing these things .

It's the attitude of entire Indians , when I criticize military and DRDO people turn against me . When I say China has guns and we only have swords we need to upgrade our Weapons people start to lecture me about how great is a sword , and gun can't be useful without bullets . Even DFI us turned into Fanboys place(not everyone)

My dear sir, if you observe carefully, most of those ammunition items are those which are in critical deficiency list sice last fifteen years. Thing were only shaken up by CAG i n his 2013 report. In spite of national attention on defeiciency the MoD and late Mr Parriker moved only after 2016 and made a consortium of Industries underCII to produce those item..

But his is 2020 and still nothing...

But DRDO and OFB bhakta without understanding the issue start on abusive spree... import lobby. foreign mal. general chor hai is more dangerous to their institutional trade union psychology than the Chinese posing grave threat to mother India.