Colonization of Afghanistan - Possible?

Tarun Kumar

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Lol Afghans only understand one language-power. Mongols were brutal with them and they surrendered. They also surrendered to Arabs, Mauryans, greeks, tocharians . Even today Afghan taliban is running away like mice in front of ISIS which kills them on spot. The insurgency is succeeding in Afghanistan simply because there is doubt about US commitment. Let US come out and say that Afghanistan is our protectorate and we will fight for its sovereignty by bombing even Pakiland. Within 2 weeks Taliban insurgency will die. It was US which spared taliban leaders in siege of Kunduz.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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True.

In fact, this whole thing about 'true origins' is a farce because we are comparing historic migrations of people from a time when the concept of the nation state - border control - citizenship - immigration was not as solid as it is now. When someone says X community came from outside, then the question arises, 'outside of where'? the current political boundaries?

@Rudra Mahalaya The idea of nationhood is a complex subject. If you go strictly by the social sciences definition of a 'nation', it is based on ethnic nationalities. So they consider 'Tamil people' as a nation. If you go by political theory, then it rejects the idea of 'a nation of people' and introduces a new concept of nation state built of multi-ethnic multi cultural people. If you take the economic definition, they they reject both, nation and nation state and focus only on 'state'. They don't care about ethnicity or political beliefs. They look at a state from the economic output and purchasing power. If it suits their free market agenda, they recommend the annexing of territory or breaking up of nations based on which parts of the nation are performing well and which parts are dead weight.

If you go by India's definition, then we reject all the above definitions and have our own definition called a 'civilizational state' where we have many ethnic groups, language groups, religions etc, but the core civilizational values are common (spanning from cuisine to attitudes towards money, saving, relationships, respect for elders). It is not limited by geography. That is why, even though we lost 30% land in partition, as per civilization theory, everything from Sindh river to Himalays is a part of our Sindhu civilization. The political setback of partition is seen as a temporary tactical loss, hence the idea of an Akhand Bharat looms in our minds because that is our civilizational concept of nationhood, which does not match the nation-state concept which was imposed on us when we were colonized. Similar Afghanistan has its own definition of Afghan nationhood which is civilizational in nature but they have not been colonized.

Nations built on the Christian concept of nationhood have crumbled already. The EU project failed because member states, despite being all white skinned people with Christian beliefs couldn't find common ground. Within that division, there are sub divisions where Scotts want to split apart, the Irish have already split apart, not to mention IRA terrorist groups. So, despite having so many common and overlapping markers (all white Christians), in addition to a big economy and low population density they couldn't keep their people glued together with a common narrative.

Afghanistan is just the opposite of that. There is no homogenous 'Afghan' ethnicity, just like there is no one Indian ethnicity. They have their Shias, and Sunnis, Pathans and Hazaras, their haves and have nots, their elites and tribals, Urdu speakers and Pashto, Darri speakers, but despite all the differences there is one common civilizational glue binding them together. They absorbed groups which they wanted to absorb and the new 'invaders' became naturalized citizens of the Afghan nationhood narrative, and they themselves defended the nation from other invaders. This is not the same as the US or Russia invading Afghanistan. When these powers invaded, they did it with the intention of retaining their own identity and imposing it on the Afghans, so they were rejected by Afghan society, unlike the central Asian 'invaders' which you mentioned who settled and intermingled with Afghan society.

The Sikhs went there, the Dogras went there, the Rajputs went there, the Marathas went there, even Buddhists went there, and each one of them has fought and won battles in Afghanistan, but were they able to stay, subjugate and colonize Afghanistan on a long term basis like the British or Mughals colonized India? Were the invaders successful in imposing their own culture in such a manner Afghans started saying, "we are not Afghans anymore, we are Mughals/Christians?".

Now compare that with Pakistan, which is an artificial state, where people think they are not Indian but Arabs. Now, THAT is true colonization where the subject loses his own identity and takes on the identity of the colonizer.
When we say Afghans the central figure ti that is Pashtuns. Afghans did get colonized and subjugated and did lose their identity and even their history that is why no one is sure of origins of pashtuns. They lost it to Islamized turks who became the ruling class. Turki tribes anyway being wild barbarians adopted themselves partially to local culture wherever they settled. Current Afghan identity is not ancient identity but this new innings started after they lost memory of what they were before. Precisely speaking it got shape with Abdali's durrani empire in 17th century. Final shape to it was given by European colonizers by drawing lines on map. So their this new identity is just few centuries older than Pakistanis.

Difference between Afghanistan and Pakistan is that Afghans have lost all old history, current identity is all they have got, and hence no identity crisis.

On the other hand Pakistanis still have not memories of their Past. Their islamization is not that old and till british time they were under rule of non-islamized Indians. So they still remember and are reminded of past history and the relationship to the land they live in. They even have retained their surnames and language and many customs (and now have central Indian language as national language). So they are passing through but not completed the process of losing their old identity which Afghans might have passed through many centuries earlier. Their elite classes are constantly trying to fast track tge process by brainwashing children with fake history, creating new historical narratives, banning kite flying etc.

Hence tge identity crisis of Pakistanis. Right now they keep struggling between conflicting multiple identities. The process will be completed when old memories are lost.

But strategically Pakistan is existential threat to india in long term. So India should not let this process of zombifcation to complete and actively break up Pakistan and enforce cultural as well as political dominace over it to catalyze deislamization.

As for Afghanistan as we dont share boundary with them, India should propagate its cutural and financial soft power and actively support and nurture liberal progressive elements in Afghanistan. If possible have a friendly military base in Afghanistan later just to subconsciously project power. Because in such warlike tribal communities strength only gets most respect/admiration. Only then they will imitate and try to be like you.
 
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Rudra Mahalaya

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^ why you want to support liberal elements in afghanistan when your own country is under strict control of Far right ?

Its like China supporting democracy in Pakistan.
 

Guest

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What is the point of Pak - Afghan Border skirmishes in LoC India Pak skirmishes thread ?

For one i see that the fell good factor although it isn't done by Indian forces but Afghan forces who are historically warlike and won't tolerate crap from "Daalkhoor" Punjabi Musalman (according to them) even if they die at the hand of superiorly equipped pak Army who inflict more damage to Afghan forces whenever such skirmishes took place by Artillery, Air strike or even capturing Afghan territory for some time.


This is also a tight slap to our establishment seeing Afghans are ready to die, busting Paki APC just because of a small disputed village, whereas Pakis cut Indian soldier's head regularly that too coming to our territory from their Territory which is also claimed by India.



But then again it's the same Nation whose 16 BSF troops killed by little Bangladeshi Border Guards without any fear in 2001. So what to expect against Pakis.
Don't know If we had any hand in what happened at Chaman-

But If someone is hurting our enemy we should encourage them and let them do so- Both Afghan and Pakistanis are not our well wishers- It is better If they fight each other to death-

Even If Afghans are not able to win- It will bruise Pakistan enough that our Job becomes easier- Our establishment would be foolish to enter into a direct attrition war with Pakistan- occupying a few posts on the mountains will cost hundreds of men and lakhs of crore, Kargil war should be good example of how well trenched militias on mountains are very difficult to dislodge and results into massive casualties- Even Americans faced similar situation fighting Taliban on mountains- With all their F-16s and B-2s they couldn't do much against a well motivated rag-tag militia- And all this bring little benefit to the economy- an uneconomical war is a disaster to begin with- and has been the grave of many world powers in history-

A war with Pakistan is only beneficial If we are able to use our full force which should be enough to cut Pakistanis into pieces- and break the country and finish Its Army- When ever we are able to apply such military force backed by diplomacy, intelligence operation and major countries of the world behind us- Our establishment should go for It-

About Bangladesh- I don't think It would've been wise to open another front- We don't want hostile neighbors all around- Bangladesh has been key in killing the insurgency in the North East which has saved the life of many more soldiers- We have to be careful of the baits our enemies prepare for us-

However we can always bloody the nose of Pakistanis by busting their bunkers or ambushing them- I am sure the Army is upto It-
 

Guest

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The historical facts do not back up your claims.

It's not for nothing that Afghanistan is known as a graveyard of empires. Several empires including British, US, Russian, Central Asian, Sikh, Dogra, Maratha have tried to wage campaigns to capture Afghanistan. What happened next, you can find out on Wikipedia.

They were left alone not because they had nothing to loot.
Other than land connectivity and some gas and minerals I doubt It is worth investing in Afghanistan- So much is said about land connectivity to central Asia- But we forget that medieval age is gone and most trade route operate on seas- Bulk of the trades is done through massive carriers- So investing in a Blue water Navy is far better than fighting a war in Afghanistan-

British wanted to secure India and probably reach Iran for oil- and Russian wanted to reach the Arabian sea's warm waters- Americans were there for their revenge and preventing Afghanistan being used as breeding ground for Jihads, those days some young Americans were leaving America for Afghanistan to do Jihad like today;s ISIS- Which alarmed the US-
 

Project Dharma

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Well Khyber is with Pakistan precisely because Indians were able to subdue and conquer a part of Pashtun land.

What I meant to say in OP was that Afghans are not hard to conquer because they are a superior warrior race, better than us daalkhor dark Hindus. The terrain where they live makes it very hard to colonize in the long term. If they were such a warrior race, they would have settled in the fertile resource rich plains of the Indus and not Indic people (Pakistanis included).
 

Rudra Mahalaya

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Well Khyber is with Pakistan precisely because Indians were able to subdue and conquer a part of Pashtun land.

What I meant to say in OP was that Afghans are not hard to conquer because they are a superior warrior race, better than us daalkhor dark Hindus. The terrain where they live makes it very hard to colonize in the long term. If they were such a warrior race, they would have settled in the fertile resource rich plains of the Indus and not Indic people (Pakistanis included).
He reeks with deep Inferiority complex.

I have seen many Indians who hates Muslims but will bend backwards to prove that they have More MENA genes
 

mendosa

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When we say Afghans the central figure ti that is Pashtuns. Afghans did get colonized and subjugated and did lose their identity and even their history that is why no one is sure of origins of pashtuns. They lost it to Islamized turks who became the ruling class. Turki tribes anyway being wild barbarians adopted themselves partially to local culture wherever they settled. Current Afghan identity is not ancient identity but this new innings started after they lost memory of what they were before. Precisely speaking it got shape with Abdali's durrani empire in 17th century. Final shape to it was given by European colonizers by drawing lines on map. So their this new identity is just few centuries older than Pakistanis.

Difference between Afghanistan and Pakistan is that Afghans have lost all old history, current identity is all they have got, and hence no identity crisis.

On the other hand Pakistanis still have not memories of their Past. Their islamization is not that old and till british time they were under rule of non-islamized Indians. So they still remember and are reminded of past history and the relationship to the land they live in. They even have retained their surnames and language and many customs (and now have central Indian language as national language). So they are passing through but not completed the process of losing their old identity which Afghans might have passed through many centuries earlier. Their elite classes are constantly trying to fast track tge process by brainwashing children with fake history, creating new historical narratives, banning kite flying etc.

Hence tge identity crisis of Pakistanis. Right now they keep struggling between conflicting multiple identities. The process will be completed when old memories are lost.

But strategically Pakistan is existential threat to india in long term. So India should not let this process of zombifcation to complete and actively break up Pakistan and enforce cultural as well as political dominace over it to catalyze deislamization.

As for Afghanistan as we dont share boundary with them, India should propagate its cutural and financial soft power and actively support and nurture liberal progressive elements in Afghanistan. If possible have a friendly military base in Afghanistan later just to subconsciously project power. Because in such warlike tribal communities strength only gets most respect/admiration. Only then they will imitate and try to be like you.
If you go for that kind of racial purity then even Jewish people cannot trace it back to one pure origin. There are Ashkanazi Jews, Polish Jews, Russian Jews, Indian Jews (Ben Israeli "Teli"). All of these signify that they intermingled with other ethnic groups, but instead of pronouncing their ethnic identity as their default identity, they gave preference to their ideology. Basically, when people downplay the obvious identity markers like skin color, language and region and give precedence to an abstract thing like ideology, then that ideology wins. That is why people say "a nation of Jews" even if, there are Jews of different nationality. Their ideology becomes their nation.

Same with Christians. They came first from Jarusalem itself, then they migrated, they took some philosophical ideas from Europe, some from pagan Greece (democracy) and also added people from various ethnic groups but they all still identify as Christians first, despite the lack of a racial purity. So they become 'a nation of Christians'. Ever wondered why they name their weapons after Greek pagan Gods (Trident missile, Hercules plane, Valkyrie bomber, Hydra rocket, Phoenix missile), despite pagan worship being forbidden in Christianity? because they themselves recognize that they have the collective baggage of the various Greek and Scandinavian ethnic groups they came from, but they still identify as Christians.

Same way, an Afghan, despite having Tajik, Uzbek, Pashtun heritage, still claims to be Afghan, because that is his chosen identity.

Check this guy, Amarulla Saleh, he was the finest intel chief of Afghanistan. He is an ethnic Tajik, so why doesn't he call himself a Tajik rather than serving his life to Afghanistan?


That is why I said earlier, if you go by racial purity, or geographical boundaries, it becomes confusing because a lot of ethnic groups have intermingled over the centuries and the past 200 years have seen the colonizers drawing artificial borders and imposing it on other civilizations. Just go by the civilizational identity of people, which means that Indian boundary will extend upto Sindh river from the east and Afghan boundary will extend upto Sindh river from the west, there is no such thing as Pakistan, it is an artificial creation imposed on us when we were subjugated. Just like Indians have not accepted this artificial line, same way, Afghans have not accepted the Durand line. Despite having different ethnic groups, religious sects, they keep saying "we are Afghans" that makes them unconquerable.

Check this talk about Israeli identity and Israeli nation given by Doval. It's a story about Russian Jews :


Unlike the Christian nations, we people (Afghans, Indians and Jews) have a different definition of nationhood. Being a Jew doesn't just mean belonging to the Jewish religion, but it also broadly implies being "the children of Israel" even if you are living in Russia. Just like being a Hindu means more than just any person who reads the Gita. It has a element of geography and ethnicity tied into it in a way that the nation cannot be defined merely by how many square kilometers of land they presently hold.

The land keeps growing and shrinking after every war, but the cultural definition of nation is still preserved by the people even when they are scattered across the world. After all, the Jews were debarred from their lands centuries ago, but they held on to their idea of nationhood and came back to establish their land. That makes them difficult to colonize. Same applies to India and Afghanistan. In contrast, if someone took away some land from, say, Brazil, or Peru or Chad, they will have no basis to fight back. Are they Latin first? or are they Christian first? is Brazil a civilization? none of the above. Thus, they will be colonized immediately and get assimilated with the invader's identity instead of fighting back. Compared to that, the Afghan narrative of nationhood is stronger. Even though there are temporary losses of land, this 'idea of Afghanistan' has not been shaken.
 

pmaitra

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Title of the thread is not matching The OP.
A number of posts were taken out of another thread and turned into a new thread. I did it. I chose that thread title based on the discussion in all the posts that were forked out, and not purely based on the opening post. Typically, the thread title closely emulates the opening post, however, this is an exceptional case.
 

Rudra Mahalaya

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A number of posts were taken out of another thread and turned into a new thread. I did it. I chose that thread title based on the discussion in all the posts that were forked out, and not purely based on the opening post. Typically, the thread title closely emulates the opening post, however, this is an exceptional case.
A number of posts were taken out of another thread and turned into a new thread. I did it. I chose that thread title based on the discussion in all the posts that were forked out, and not purely based on the opening post. Typically, the thread title closely emulates the opening post, however, this is an exceptional case.
Oh i was not talking about you,i was talking about that racist guy whos member of this forum for a long t8me.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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^ why you want to support liberal elements in afghanistan when your own country is under strict control of Far right ?

Its like China supporting democracy in Pakistan.
Then should it support conservative islamists?
Whatever right left nonsense means, it is not much relevant to geopolitical relations with other country. Whoever is good for one's geopolitical interests is ally. e. g. the liberal democratic US and wahabi saudis are staunch allies.
 

mendosa

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Then should it support conservative islamists?
Whatever right left nonsense means, it is not much relevant to geopolitical relations with other country. Whoever is good for one's geopolitical interests is ally. e. g. the liberal democratic US and wahabi saudis are staunch allies.
Are you responding to Rudra Mahalaya? just go through the profile messages on his profile page. He is a Gujarati separatist who wants to seal the borders of Gujarat and issue Gujarati passports. :pound:

I've already reported him. Don't take him seriously, it's just some agent provocateur.
 

mendosa

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-----------------------------------double comment-----------------------------------
 

Rudra Mahalaya

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Then should it support conservative islamists?
Whatever right left nonsense means, it is not much relevant to geopolitical relations with other country. Whoever is good for one's geopolitical interests is ally. e. g. the liberal democratic US and wahabi saudis are staunch allies.
It will only destroy our relationship with Afghanistan just like last time we supported Commie government.
 

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