Civil war in Ukraine

arpakola

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FINITO LA MUSICA IN Debaltseve :thumb:

Pro-Russia separatists say they've trapped thousands of Ukraine troops - LA Times
TASS: World - DPR militias nip attempted breakthrough of two convoys with munitions towards Debaltsevo
There seems to be a number of sources (from both sides) now confirming what everyone long suspected: that it was just a matter of time before the NAF closed the Debaltsevo Cauldron. An LPR commander claims:

The militia has fully encircled Debaltsevo. Road to Artemovsk is under Novorossia control. It is impossible to travel on it, we are about to put up roadblocks. Ukrainian forces will attempt to break out, but they have relatively few forces left, they have problems with ammunition and food. The annihilation of the Debaltsevo pocket will occur in the near future.
Compare this report to an urgent plea from Rada Deputy Taras Pastukh, who is currently participating in the fighting at Debaltsevo:

"Greetings from the still-Ukrainian Debaltsevo. We just repelled an attack on our base camp. Earlier it could barely be reached by artillery, but today enemy infantry had arrived. The National Guard had left the city, thus leaving us open to attack. All blocking positions report constant shelling and tank attacks. We never received any reinforcement. It went to the CTO zone, but never went where it was needed."

"We are being abandoned here, while at the same time others are simply running away," he added.

He also asked the country's leaders for support.

"I ask for your help. Tell everyone you can about the critical situation here. Maybe someone got the idea I was excessively panicked, because the President had said that he had everything under control. Unfortunately, I was only wrong about the time, because I could not believe they would come at us with such force, while we continued to hope to abide by the Minsk Agreement and discuss whether a martial law is needed," noted the deputy.

In his words, "this is genuine betrayal of the country by the entire military command, including our so-called 'president'."
TASS is also reporting that Ukrainian troops in Debaltsevo are now completely cut off from reinforcements. Even The Los Angeles Times is relaying rebel claims that 8,000-10,000 Ukrainian troops are now trapped and can't escape without surrendering.
 

jouni

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The hardest thing is to prove the obvious.
Simple things.
Like economic growth for Ukraine was possible only in cooperation with Russia, development of joint hi-tech projects, common market, etc.
Like Russia was ready to invest billions of dollars in Ukraine, has offered discounts on gas and preferential credits.
Like the association with EU leads most of Ukrainian industry to bankruptcy.
Like the word "Independence" has more readings than "Independence from Russia".


Never. You are mistaking. I repeat - NO ONE OF THE EU POLITICIANS HAS EVER OFFERED UKRAINE TO JOIN EU. And no one called the association an entry point. Ukrainians were fooled by thinking so.
Poland has developed quite well with EU. Starting point was the same with Ukraine after fall of SU



Russia should think like Peter the Great and open up to Europe, rather than building walls, real and in peoples minds.
 

jouni

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Understanding Putin's plans

The Russian president is stepping up both the war in Ukraine and his confrontational rhetoric against NATO and the West
Jan 31st 2015 | MOSCOW | From the print edition
Timekeeper

IN A book of interviews published when he first became Russia's president, Vladimir Putin told a story of his early scares: a rat he had cornered had nowhere to go and jumped out at him. Having pushed himself into a corner, Mr Putin is now playing out his childhood nightmare.

After several months of relative quiet in Ukraine and at home, he has raised the stakes. In Ukraine, he has shattered a fragile ceasefire, along with last September's Minsk peace deal. The rebels are advancing and Mr Putin has called the Ukrainian Army a NATO foreign legion. At the same time, he is building up his defences at home by mobilising paramilitary brigades to fight potential Maidan-style protests. The latest violence in Ukraine is, in many ways, a sign of Mr Putin's desperation.

In this section
Understanding Putin's plans
Ceasefire no more
A very special relationship
Mayday in Milan
Greece and its discontents
Reprints
Related topics
NATO
Politics
Ukrainian politics
Ukraine
Europe
Five months ago, Russian troops moved in to stop the Ukrainian army clearing out rebels in the Donbas region. Ukraine's defeat soon become apparent. Its trade agreement with theEuropean Union was put on ice and the Ukrainian parliament passed a law granting broad autonomy to the parts of the Donbas controlled by the separatists. Talk of Ukraine joining NATO stopped. America was cut out of discussions between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. Mr Putin's goal of creating a separatist zone within Ukraine seemed within reach.

Yet hybrid wars can breed hybrid results. Since Russia never admitted to its military involvement, it could not claim victory and impose its will by keeping soldiers on the ground. Once its troops withdrew from eastern Ukraine, Mr Putin's victory started to look shaky. The rebels refused to lay down their arms, and Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko, would not admit defeat. Ukraine has not, so far, recognised Donetsk and Luhansk or abandoned its NATO aspirations. Indeed, on December 29th Mr Poroshenko signed a law scrapping Ukraine's neutral status.

The West has continued to press Mr Putin to stop supplying arms to the rebels before engaging in further talks about the make-up of Ukraine. In a sign of clear mistrust, European leaders called off a planned summit with Mr Putin in Astana. So Mr Putin decided to show his resolve. Russian-backed separatists relaunched their offensive on Donetsk airport, which had become a symbol of Ukrainian resistance. Alexander Zakharchenko, the rebels' leader, also attacked the port of Mariupol. A missile barrage missed its target and instead hit a residential area, killing 30 civilians (see article). As soon as this became clear, Mr Zakharchenko was instructed by Moscow to change his story and blame the Ukrainians and their Western backers for provocation—a narrative swiftly backed up by Mr Putin.

Ukraine, Mr Putin declared, was in a state of civil war. But he added that the Ukrainian army was a "foreign NATO legion which doesn't pursue the national interests of Ukraine but wants to restrain Russia." This statement was carefully prepared by a Russian television display of mysterious English-speaking soldiers in Ukrainian uniform and footage of American military commanders in Kiev. "After each such visit by American military, the fighting in Ukraine starts anew," the main news programme explained.

This ratcheting up of anti-Western rhetoric is in part a response to a deteriorating economy. Indeed, Mr Putin upgraded the war into a Russia-NATO conflict just as Standard & Poor's, a rating agency, was downgrading Russia's credit rating to junk. The fall in oil prices and continued pressure on the rouble is driving up prices, causing much grumbling among ordinary Russians. While the government is carefully avoiding the word crisis, it has started to talk of anti-crisis measures. So is the opposition. Alexei Navalny, an opposition leader, and Boris Nemtsov, a veteran liberal, have called for an anti-crisis rally. "Putin is crisis and war. No Putin—no crisis and no war," wrote Mr Nemtsov.

Mr Putin has also planted new defences within Russia. On the day the rebels launched their attack on Donetsk airport, an "anti-Maidan" movement was launched, consisting of tough-looking Cossacks, Russian veterans of wars in Afghanistan and Chechnya, black-leather-clad bikers called night wolves and professional sportsmen trained to fight any sign of liberalism. (This is on top of several thousand Chechen fighters under Chechnya's president Ramzan Kadyrov, who swear personal loyalty to Mr Putin.) The group, whose launch was advertised in the state media, seems to have a licence to carry out extra-judicial violence. Their first action was to attack supporters of Mr Navalny who had gathered in a Moscow café.

The annexation of Crimea and the war in Ukraine have thus helped Mr Putin to consolidate power at home. But as the economy deteriorates, he cannot afford to let go of eastern Ukraine and seems trapped by the logic of escalating conflict. As Carl Bildt, a former Swedish foreign minister and longtime Russia watcher, puts it, Mr Putin now has an explicitly revisionist agenda under which he is seeking to change the post-cold-war settlement of Europe through an information war and, if need be, by military force. An explicit threat of a bigger war in Ukraine has been aired by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin propagandist, who suggests that Russia needs to topple the government in Kiev and occupy Odessa and Kharkiv. Only then, he writes, "will sanctions be lifted, the junta driven out of power and Ukraine become democratic and federal—in exchange for not taking Kiev."

This warmongering is clearly aimed at the West, which is considering new sanctions, including cutting Russia out of the SWIFT banking system, something that could have a devastating impact on the economy. Dmitry Medvedev, Mr Putin's prime minister, has warned that this would trigger unrestricted retaliation—and not just economically. The danger is not that Russia declares war on NATO, but that its recklessness could have unintended consequences. There is also a risk that Ukraine, a country of 45m people with a will of its own, despite what Mr Putin thinks, could be provoked into full-scale war.

All this may make the situation in some ways even more perilous than in the cold war. Igor Ivanov, a former foreign minister, has even suggested, one hopes with some exaggeration: "In the absence of political dialogue, with mutual mistrust reaching historical highs, the probability of unintended accidents, including those involving nuclear weapons, is getting more and more real."

[MOD Edit: Link added.]

http://www.economist.com/news/europ...-war-ukraine-and-his-confrontational-rhetoric
 

pmaitra

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Russia should think like Peter the Great and open up to Europe, rather than building walls, real and in peoples minds.
Russia should open up to EU, and Russia's efforts to open up to EU are blocked by EU building walls. EU is in its third recession, and oil prices are beginning to slowly climb up.
 

pmaitra

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@jouni, don't post article(s) without link, unless the content is your original creation.
 
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pmaitra

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This excerpt explains the stupidity in the claims that there is the Russian Army in Ukraine. Russia is not that stupid to send in its army and place it under disadvantageous conditions.

There are volunteers from the Russian Federation, which the Russian Federation does not deny. Many families are spread on both sides of the border, so it is easy to get volunteers.

Also, both countries have conscription, so even a civilian could be a person well trained in the art of warfare and well trained in operating military hardware.

In fact, these assumptions are absolutely groundless. And it is not in some "insider", which are so fond of trumps, rolling his eyes languidly Vgoru. The position of Russia: Russian troops in the Donbas not automatically exclude any offensive actions of the Russian troops. Even under the guise of militia. Actually, the old situation where "vacationers" were forced to intervene in the disaster took place, but did not go further demarcation line, which was announced by the Minsk collusion, has the same perfectly rational explanation. Inability to legalize the presence of Russian troops on the territory of the conflict deprives them of the ability to apply all the techniques and weapons that are available in the Russian army: Aviation, Missiles, modern tanks, air defense, electronic warfare, and so on. In this situation, the war is translated in a very disadvantageous format in which the Russian military can not use all of their real benefits and bear absolutely unjustified losses. In general, the loss of summer vacationers are primarily associated with it, although elements of traditional military mess and inconsistency makes its contribution.
Source: Эль Мюрид - Заявление Захарченко
 

pmaitra

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I have not posted those videos because of the gore, but they are still recovering rotting corpses from the Dontesk Airport Terminal. That is the same please where NATO weapons were recovered by the NovoRossiyan militia. (I have also posted a video of a man refusing to be videographed and said in American accent, "not my face," as he covered his face with his palm.)

The question is, whose are those rotting corposes? Let's see this report:

NATO Begins a Soft Invasion of Donbass

Alexey Zoteev - Cassad.net

Another ceasefire in Donbass for the first time in many months is without the artillery cannonade. Peaceful cities again became peaceful. Machine gun bursts and single shots from small arms don't count. Ukrainian troops folded their heavy rocket artillery and doing a rotation. Battered units of UAF are being replaced by fresh troops. This is where the fun begins.

One of my friends got a call from a friend living in a prosperous European country and hysterically reported that the husband of her relative, a soldier of one of the divisions of NATO, was sent to Ukraine, changed into Ukrainian uniform and delivered to the location of Donetsk airport. She also reported that according to this soldier, almost all who, under the pretext of rotation, comes to the airport - are Europeans and Americans. NATO troops are taking this strategic object under their control.

Also, during the conversation, the reason for the closure of the three largest airports of Ukraine - Zaporozhzhye, Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk became clear. NATO transport aircraft landed on the runways of these airports, and unloaded military equipment, military units and ammunition. Confirmation of the delivery to Eastern Ukraine of "help" from NATO I also received from other sources - local residents in these cities confirmed that they had seen European and American equipment on the territory of the flight terminals. NATO began a soft invasion of Donbass. Dressed in Ukrainian uniform European and American military are taking up key positions on the front lines.

What can all this mean? Why should a party which is interested in a ceasefire remove their own units and replace them with soldiers, whose birthplace is far away from this place? It is not difficult to answer this question. To speculate that the well-trained fighters of NATO will be able to more efficiently contain the onslaught of the militia is stupid, because the advantage in manpower, equipment and supplies is clearly on the side of the units of the Ukrainian armed forces. Accordingly, NATO units, taking the leading positions, have a different task. In my opinion, it is these men who will provoke a conflict, which in the future is destined to grow into a full-scale military operation involving NATO troops. The desire to drag Russia into a global war may very soon bring terrible results. A war with participation of Russian troops and NATO troops very quickly may step outside Ukraine's boundaries and continue either in Russia or the European Union. This course of events, is good only for one country - USA. Mainland power will gladly engage in a global conflict, provided that it takes place on another continent and does not threaten the infrastructure of America. Separated by an ocean, America will avoid ground operations and the maximum that she faces are single air and missile strikes, which the missile defense system is able to cope with. Europe and Russia will suffer more - ground operation will inevitably lead to the destruction of settlements and partial disruption of communications and infrastructure. The question of the start date of WWIII, which will draw into its millstones most countries of our planet is decided today in Donbass, and in particular on the territory of Donetsk airport terminal . And it will be started by those NATO soldiers, which were changed into the Ukrainian uniform and sent to the positions in far away Donetsk.

. . .
I personally prefer that this war spread into Europe, and not into Russia. Foreign powers have tried to be pricks with Russia many times in the past. How did it work out for them - the Swedes, the French, the Germans? History bears testimony to that.
 

jouni

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I personally prefer that this war spread into Europe, and not into Russia. Foreign powers have tried to be pricks with Russia many times in the past. How did it work out for them - the Swedes, the French, the Germans? History bears testimony to that.
Yeah, those are all peace loving prosperous countries. How about India? Russia helped you back in the hippie seventies, how about returning the favor. I bet NATO would think twice if there were few gurkha regiments in Debaltshejeve, any sight of Turban would definately scare the Ukro-Nazis...
 

jouni

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Russia should open up to EU, and Russia's efforts to open up to EU are blocked by EU building walls. EU is in its third recession, and oil prices are beginning to slowly climb up.
Glad you agree, then both should start find ways to get back to co op.
 

arpakola

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Russia should think like Peter the Great and open up to Europe, rather than building walls, real and in peoples minds.
at the moment NATO/EU is building walls and imposing sanctions..
so dont try to tranform the day to -> night..
 

pmaitra

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Glad you agree, then both should start find ways to get back to co op.
No, I don't agree with your claim that Russia is building walls.

Russia should think like Peter the Great and open up to Europe, rather than building walls, real and in peoples minds.
Who is expanding? NATO or Russia?
Who is building military bases closer to the other? NATO or Russia?
Who started economic blockade? NATO countries, or Russia?

This has been happening for last twenty years. Did you pay attention to that? TWENTY YEARS.

So, who is building the wall?
 

pmaitra

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Yeah, those are all peace loving prosperous countries. How about India? Russia helped you back in the hippie seventies, how about returning the favor. I bet NATO would think twice if there were few gurkha regiments in Debaltshejeve, any sight of Turban would definately scare the Ukro-Nazis...
You are confused.

The Khukri (Hindu dagger) corresponds to the Gurkha Regiment.
The Turban corresponds to the Sikh Light Infantry, or any Sikh solider.
 

jouni

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No, I don't agree with your claim that Russia is building walls.



Who is expanding? NATO or Russia?
Who is building military bases closer to the other? NATO or Russia?
Who started economic blockade? NATO countries, or Russia?

This has been happening for last twenty years. Did you pay attention to that? TWENTY YEARS.

So, who is building the wall?
We are going in circles, lets just say that Ukrainian leaders have a tough choise: get closer to Germany who has HDI 10 or Russia who has HDI 80... And dropping...if they do not change their policies.
 

pmaitra

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We are going in circles, lets just say that Ukrainian leaders have a tough choise: get closer to Germany who has HDI 10 or Russia who has HDI 80... And dropping...if they do not change their policies.
Ukrainians indeed have a tough choice. Let me list them out for you:
  • Be led by an elected president or a violent coup installed regime.
  • Turn into a fascist state run by Ukro-Nazis or become a federation with autonomous regions.
  • Become closer to Europe, some of whose members are neck deep in debt and in a crumbling EuroZone, or become closer to Russia, live debt free, and with less pomp and show.

You HDI isn't helping the EU recession. Sorry about that.

One thing I want Ukraine to do is to refuse aid and subsidized "stuff" from Russia. They need to stop biting the hand that feeds them.
 

jouni

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I would call that optimism "no, no it is not deep"
 

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