Civil war in Ukraine

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Cadian

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Don't want to participate in a discussion about Boeing until the investigation will be finished. According to UN resolution the "black boxes" will be send to ICAO and this is good.

But i want to highlight one important moment. On 18th of July Ukrainian army has begun a full-scale offensive on all directions, trying to establish a blockade of major rebellion cities. Heavy casualties from both sides and civilians been reported. Look at this:

0

See this hole encircled by a thick red line? That's how it was covered in mainstream Western media. All the attention was switched to Boeing crash and blame battle around it, while the death of hundreds of Ukrainian citizens at the same time have not deserved even a small mention.

That's an answer for statements like "Ukrainians are Europeans bla-bla-bla...", "All civilized world supports us bla-bla-bla...". On Western opinion, Ukrainians are just primitive savages, who no one is taken care of. All Human Rights organisation are veeeery tolerant to what's happening. But I'm sure, if that was Russia, the howl would have stood up to the heavens

Here is a map showing places shelled by Ukrainian artillery in Lughansk on night 18-19 July:


And some photos of consequences:








https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs6EqItIMAAmrnO.jpg[/IMG]

And some info from city administration (on 17th July!)

Civilians
Victims - 44 people
including children - 1
Wounded - 215 people
including children - 4

Destruction
Apartment buildings - 46
Private Sector Housing - 195

Social facilities
Schools - 3
Kindergartens - 12
bus station
pharmacy warehouses

Objects industrial sphere
Plants - 5
Warehouses of finished products of private enterprises - 10

Stores - 18
Including supermarkets - 3
Catering - 2
60% of city markets closed.

Critical infrastructure of the city
Damaged trolleybuses - 10
Trams - 5
Municipal buses - 3
Taxis - 40
Electric contact lines - 10 km
Power lines - 19 km
Roadbed - 17000 sq.m.
Boiler - 6
Electrosubstations - 11
Water supply facilities - 4

To provide medical assistance to the population lacking 150 doctors and 250 nurses.
http://gorod.lugansk.ua/index.php?newsid=25088

Today - 5 dead, 16 injured, many objects damaged also (There's more text describing destructions, you can google-translate):
http://gorod.lugansk.ua/index.php?newsid=25100

Ge-no-ci-de
Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 9 December 1948 and came into effect on 12 January 1951 (Resolution 260 (III)). Article 2:
 

Ray

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@Cadian

Whatever be the claims of all the sides in the Ukrainian civil war, the situation is so murky that one one cannot fathom as to what is the truth.

What you could do to help us understand is:

1. Are the Russian speaking East Europeans, Russians or Ukrainians?

2. What is their problem to identify with Ukraine?

3. How can anyone be sure if Russians have not come to assist the East Ukrainians?
 
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bhramos

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Many of western media spreading this foto claming that the man steals a ring.

Western journalists probably got the first foto from ukranian sources. Do not believe ukranian media, they are laying all the way about rebel fighters.
The man on the foto isn't stealing. He is collecting things - watch it yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilt8DLuu5Og

If western media is truly professianal - they should update theire articales, because it's dividing people by bringing more anger and pain to the passengers'relatives and damaging reputation of the man on the foto and his colleagues.

But sadly it's not gonna happen.
 

bhramos

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WHISTLEBLOWER: U.S. SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW UKRAINIAN TROOPS SHOOTING DOWN MH17
Source tells award winning reporter Washington lying about responsibility for tragedy

Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

In the absence of any proper investigation, media rhetoric over the last few days has firmly pointed the finger of blame for the downing of the aircraft on Russian-backed Ukrainian rebels, but Parry's source tells a different story.

What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.
Although the establishment press has attempted to deride any questioning of the official narrative that Ukrainian rebels were responsible for the incident by invoking the tired "conspiracy theory" pejorative, Parry can hardly be dismissed as a crank given his key role in covering the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press and Newsweek. Indeed, Parry's investigative work on intelligence matters, for which he was awarded the George Polk Award, suggests that the information provided by his source is worthy of serious attention.

U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine's Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, "The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems."

In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.

"The tape's second fragment consists of three pieces but was presented as a single audio recording. However, a spectral and time analysis has showed that the dialog was cut into pieces and then assembled. Short pauses in the tape are very indicative: the audio file has preserved time marks which show that the dialog was assembled from various episodes, the expert said," reports ITAR-TASS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR5HtzbMy-E

» Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17 Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
 

Cadian

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@Cadian

Whatever be the claims of all the sides in the Ukrainian civil war, the situation is so murky that one one cannot fathom as to what is the truth.

What you could do to help us understand is:

1. Are the Russian speaking East Europeans, Russians or Ukrainians?

2. What is their problem to identify with Ukraine?

3. How can anyone be sure if Russians have not come to assist the East Ukrainians?
I'll try to answer in a few words, but these questions require much more explanation.

1. Russia is a European country and shares with it a common history of wars, alliances, dynastic marriages, changes and crises of ideology, culture and art developments etc. Most of South-East Ukrainians are ethnically Russians and nationally Ukrainians.

2. Ukrainian ideology from 1991 denies it's part of history when Ukrainian ethnos was actually formed and prospered as a part of Russian Empire. Instead they invent fairy-tales about ancient Ukrs that digged the Black Sea and so on. Also this ideology presents Ukraine as a victim state that had always suffered from Russia (victims could do no wrong, that's why Ukrainians close eyes on their crimes so easily). This ideology glorified any historical characters that fought with Russia as heroes and betrayed forgotten heroes who identified themselves with Russia.
It was acceptable till the so-called "National Revolution" happened this year - it had put the question squarely:
are you with those, who sees Ukraine's ultimate mission to become a bridgehead for Western forces to destroy Russia, or
are you with those, who want Ukraine to be a friendly partner or even a part of Russia.

3. There are a lot of Russian citizens in South-East army, most of them are retired soldiers and officers of Soviet and Russian armies. It's not a secret. Unofficial help with arms is not a secret too.
 
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happy

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Except for su-25 on the arms of Ukraine is the su-24, su-27, MiG-29. This day was only the attack aircraft..
How can you confirm this piece of info ?? Better still, you don't have to confirm anything for me, first confirm it to yourself. Are you in possession of classified info as to which aircraft was flying, their call signs and radio chatter ?? Nada...zilch...nothing !!! So, keep your opinions to yourself and instead try to gather proof.

Since the outset of this whole civil war, if you had cared to provide concrete proof of the Ukrainian innocence atleast once, I bet, all the Indians on this forum and elsewhere would have supported you outright.
 

happy

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Obama is a weak President and Putler takes advantage of this.
Thank God, people who see the truth do not claim that Putin is a weak President and Obama is taking advantage of him....or else, we would have witnessed a greater catastrophe.
 

happy

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My question is simple.. Why did the Su-25 take off without any weapons on it when it is trying to intercept the civilian aircraft MH17?
Because he was not intercepted civil jet. He only had weapons of a class "air-surface" and he supported our troops.
Ukrainskie fighters do not use the R-60. On arms of Ukraine class AA: R-73, "Gran", R-27.
The R-73 is an infrared-guided (heat-seeking) missile with a sensitive, cryogenic cooled seeker with a substantial "off-boresight" capability: the seeker can "see" targets up to 40° off the missile's centerline.[3] It can be targeted by a helmet-mounted sight (HMS) allowing pilots to designate targets by looking at them. Minimum engagement range is about 300 meters, with maximum aerodynamic range of nearly 30 km (19 mi) at altitude. The weapon is used by the MiG-29, MiG-31, Su-27, Su-34 and Su-35, and can be carried by newer versions of the MiG-21, MiG-23, Sukhoi Su-24, and Su-25 aircraft.[4] India is looking to use the missile on their HAL Tejas. It can also be carried by Russian attack helicopters, including the Mil Mi-24, Mil Mi-28, and Kamov Ka-50.

The R-73 is a highly maneuverable missile and mock dogfights have indicated that the high degree of "off-boresight" capability of the R-73 would make a significant difference in combat. The missile also has a mechanically simple but effective system for thrust-vectoring.
R-73 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pardon me for quoting from Wiki, but I guess this is quite accurate description of the R-73. Now going by your contention that Su-25 has a max ceiling of 7000 meters and with weapons 5000 meters, I ask you, isn't it possible for a Su-25 to shoot a missile flying at much lower height than the MH-17 ??
 
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Akim

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Pardon me for quoting from Wiki, but I guess this is quite accurate description of the R-73. Now going by your contention that Su-25 has a max ceiling of 7000 meters and with weapons 5000 meters, I ask you, isn't it possible for a Su-25 to shoot a missile flying at much lower height than the MH-17 ??
It is not mathematics. To Fire-and-forget the R-73, Gran took target Su-25 would need to climb a steep angle . This is not to allow the work aileron and elevators.
 

Akim

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Since the outset of this whole civil war, if you had cared to provide concrete proof of the Ukrainian innocence atleast once, I bet, all the Indians on this forum and elsewhere would have supported you outright.
I am not going to prove. There is a Russian proverb: Тебе хоть кол на голове теши. You even in the crystal clear water, will find a patch of dirt. You won't even believe that this is not a civil war, what sense to convince the rest? To manage artillery, tanks, to command units need officer training, and not the "militia", which first took the AR.
 

asianobserve

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xxx And you started to disrespect your dead countrymen by blaming a country without getting to facts and you continue to do so even after Russia presented the facts and the data it has with it's ATC with videos and radar analysis in open and also handed over the FDR to the Malaysian authorities in open event. xxx

Only Putin bottom lickers will believe Russian version of events. Here's a more believable version of events:

No Cookies | Herald Sun

In a way the frantic denial from Putin is understandable and expected as this is a very serious murder by stupidity and one that will have huge diplomatic implications against them. They will try to muddle first the issue, as what it is doing now, with outlandish conspiracy theories: Ukrainians shot MH-19 down thinking it was Putin's plane; Ukrainains shot it down to pin the blame on Russia; not to mention some flat-out stupid theories like from the rebels that this whole scenario is a conspiracy by the West to put Russia and the rebels in a bad light by putting dead bodies from MH-370 to MH-17 and then shooting down the plane (the B777 must have been turned into a drone just for that idiotic exercise). The purpose of muddling the issue now is to divide the international community for enough time to stop the momentum of a concerted and more severe Western punitive actions against Russia that so far until now the EU is hesitant to impose. Eventually, when everybody is already tired of hearing charges and counter-charges some in the rebels (not Russia) will admit culpability by stupidity.

I hope Putin does not succeed against this time. We owe it to the 298 innocent people that were mudered in flight MH-17 to expose how they were murdered and to prosecute those who murdered them and those who facilitated the murder.
 
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Cadian

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I am not going to prove. There is a Russian proverb: Тебе хоть кол на голове теши. You even in the crystal clear water, will find a patch of dirt. You won't even believe that this is not a civil war, what sense to convince the rest? To manage artillery, tanks, to command units need officer training, and not the "militia", which first took the AR.
Cheap. Who said that all these specialists need to be on active duty in Russian army. But covert supplying Donbass with hardware and volunteers still remains a half-measure, because it can't stop depopulation of these region and is not enough to stop Ukrainian army. The best moment for invasion was missed after 11th May referendums, when it could prevent the current bloody hell.

This is a common tactic of Russia. To create a quasi-state (Nagorny Karabakh, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria), enter its "peacemakers" and to build these "government" weapons.
You forgot. Russia first has created Nazi regimes in Georgia, Moldova and quarreled Armenia and Azerbaijan (they were best friends, really). And USSR collapse was a part of this bandit terrorist plan too.
 

Akim

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@Cadian;I REPEAT AGAIN. I WILL NOT ENTER INTO A DISCUSSION WITH SOMEONE FROM THE AGGRESSOR COUNTRY.
 
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Cadian

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@Cadian;I REPEAT AGAIN. I WILL NOT ENTER INTO A DISCUSSION WITH SOMEONE FROM THE AGGRESSOR COUNTRY.
Hmm. Please clarify - with someone from the "aggressor" country or with someone who supports the "aggression"? I'm not even agreed with the statement that "Russia is an aggressor". :rolleyes:

The therm "aggression" is emotional an explains nothing.

Cool down or jump higher. Your choice.
 
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Akim

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Ukrainian army liberated Popasnoe and Severodonetsk.

Photo indirectly confirms, that was the aggressor.
 
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