Civil war in Ukraine

[asianobserve]

The Indian test I cited above maybe the "irresistible test" known in our legal system. In this test, there must be a string of circumstantial evidence that lends to no other conclusion than the culpability of accused.

 

[pmaitra]

DNR militia denied information about injury to Strelkov

Destroyed by fighters of the "Right Sector" taunted prisoners

"Right Sector" vowed to avenge the death of their militia fighters

In the Lvov region, law enforcement fired at "Right Sector"[/URL]

Oleg Tsarev presented the new flag of Novorossiya

 

[pmaitra]

Destroyed by fighters of the "Right Sector" taunted prisoners

Looks like a TATA chassis. I know TATA sells vehicles in Ukraine.

 

[Akim]

Oleg Tsarev presented the new flag of Novorossiya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perak

 

[Ray]

Countries that imposed sanctions on Russia are from Europe (EU countries), North America (US and Canada), Asia (Japan) and Australia.

and the are the world? International? Global?

They are merely birds of the same feather flocking together.

Yes.

Since when 10 nations become 'international'?

It is jut a 'group'.

If G7 states anything, does it make the 'international' view?

What squeezing and tweaking? You're the one trying to inject a new meaning into the word "international" by insinuating that the West (which is the collective label of European and North American countries that have been allies during the Cold War) cannot be defined as "international" in the context of Russian sanctions.

I am not giving any new meaning. I am giving the connotation that is accepted as 'international'. You are propagating that if a group of nation club together and doe something, that mean the world has spoken!

You're trying to muddle the issue. We were only taking about your attempt to deny the description of "international" to Western countries. Now you're talking about media?

I am muddling nothing. The media is an example.

I am merely trying to debunk the usual humbug that one sees that the 'international' opinion is this or that when it is only the opinion of a mere group and a drop in the ocean when comparing it with the real world of 195 Widely Recognized Sovereign States.

Here is another example of the use of 'international' to mean the majority of the countries

The most common way to count "internationally recognized sovereign states", and the method used by most world maps and publications, is to first count members of the United Nations, then count non-U.N. members who are still allowed to sit in on U.N. meetings as official observer
http://www.polgeonow.com/2011/04/how-many-countries-are-there-in-world.html

 

[Cadian]

Most of the people east of Kiev and south of Kiev, do not speak Ukrainian. In the south, they mostly speak Russian, while in the east, they speak a language, that is a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian. It has a word, and I ask @Cadian to remind me of that word.

It's called surzhik. Ukrainians are deceived Russians, who were led to believe that they have to fight to prove that they are not Russians. They are kind of Janissaries in fact, boys, who were taken from christian families and learned to hate their parents and fight with them for the glory of Turkish Sultan.

 

[Cadian]

Find Ukrainian artillery in the village:

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/zh_esterhazy/10429375/66063/66063_original.jpg


+ Aid convoy footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcAFq0wyHIA

 

[Ray]

Your jurisprudence in India proves that circumstantial alone can be the basis of conviciton:

Your jurisprudence in India proves that circumstantial alone can be the basis of conviciton:

This Court in a series of decisions has consistently held that when a case rests upon circumstantial evidence, such evidence must satisfy the following tests: (i) the circumstances from which an inference of guilt is sought to be drawn, must be cogently and firmly established; (ii) those circumstances should be of definite tendency unerringly pointing towards guilt of the accused; (iii) the circumstances, taken cumulatively, should form a chain so complete that there is no escape from the conclusion that with all human probability the crime was committed by the accused and none else; and (iv) the circumstantial evidence in order to sustain conviction must be complete and 1 incapable of explanation of any other hypothesis than that of the guilt of the accused and such evidence should not only be consistent with the guilt of the accused but should be inconsistent with his innocence. (Gambhir v. State of Maharashtra, AIR 1982 SC 1157)

Babu vs State Of Kerala on 11 August, 2010

Apparently you missed the bold parts when you claim that = Your jurisprudence in India proves that circumstantial alone can be the basis of conviction

 

[apple]

It's called surzhik. Ukrainians are deceived Russians, who were led to believe that they have to fight to prove that they are not Russians. They are kind of Janissaries in fact, boys, who were taken from christian families and learned to hate their parents and fight with them for the glory of Turkish Sultan.

While I don't have a dog in this fight, I'll play devil's advocate.

Russian's have strayed from the "true Slavic" traditions of the Kiovan Rus by adopting the Duchy of Muscovite's imitation of Byzantian and Golden Horde traditions ;-)

Hmm.... true. At least you do not hide under any ambivalent 'greater good' mack. However, nowadays the west seem not so much unified in opinions and even when most of the nations are towing the line set by the USA, there are voices rising in their home against it. So, lets see how long West is synonymous with US and Europe together.

Btw, Australia is irrelevant in respect of West too.

It has always been so. The sane and logical reasoning most of the time fail to penetrate the set idea that has been drilled into the Western populace terming National interest.

Not intervening? Are you blind?

Actually, I really want to see West 'intervening' as you put it. Want to see if they have the guts, which I doubt they sorely lack.

The US's line changes and it's (making the assumption there is a line) at times difficult to discern what the line is... party politics, the press, etc. all confuse the issue. Not to mention national differences in approach to the "US line".

PC academics don't like the term "the West" anymore. They prefer the term "the North" which would make Australia even less relevant.

This is, or is meant to be, a military site. Lots of nations have been intervening in the Ukraine affairs. But, in terms of military intervention the Ukrainian government hasn't got much help, at least in comparison to the help the seperatists have received.

What a pathetic effort, if nothing else.

Mujahideen the winner. Sure they were in Afghanistan, but was that the intention of the 'Freedom and Democracy' neo missionaries and Pollyannas?

This was what I was objecting to before, in regards to, you belying your age and viewing recent history with a revisionist viewpoint. What would happen once the Soviet Union left Afghanistan was secondary at the time.

That they have themselves bombed on 9/11 and then squandered wealth and lives (returning in bodybags)?

Al Qaeda was only borderline Mujahideen. Not sure how much funding they got from America. But yes, once again revisionist and irrelevant.

And delight themselves to become a 'has been' superpower with their clout becoming inconsequential and repeatedly given a drubbing and a hiding by ragtag 'towelheads' (that is the word that you all use in anger, right)?

You sure have a quaint and obtuse masochistic streak to absorb pain for delight and self fulfilment.

Ad hominem and irrelevant

Good to know your 'vast knowledge' of the world and war conduct wherein you feel that Wilson's antics singlehanded won the fight against the USSR in Afghanistan. Go tell that to the Marines. (British meaning). Brig Yousaf will not be delighted I assure you.

What the USSR couldn't, neither has the neo missionaries of the Freedom and Democracy clique has been able to do. USSR retreated and so are you doing so!

Ad hominem and irrelevant

If being 'neutral' is being a 'stooge', well, then surely I am not neutral, since I am not a stooge as some are.

What? Am I meant to be a stooge??? Sure OK

TS Eliot has stated - "Anxiety is the handmaiden of creativity"

Your belief that if someone does not toe any line is partisan, then your anxiety does indicate a warped, perverse, illogical creativity of fantasy.

Whatever

Deus autem omnipotens benedicat tibi

Can't remember writing on this forum that I was Roman Catholic... I'm not that familiar with the Vulgate. Actually, I barely know Latin, nor am I that familiar with the Old Testament. But, I know Genesis pretty well. Do you understand the context of that blessing? Presumably you think you're telling me to go to Syria (where Jacob was going to, in Paddan-aram, is actually located in modern Turkey). Gen 28:3 is, in my opinion, less of a blessing and more of a reference to the story of Jacob's Ladder, which it immediately precedes, and have no idea why you'd be referring to that???

I am merely trying to debunk the usual humbug that one sees that the 'international' opinion is this or that when it is only the opinion of a mere group and a drop in the ocean when comparing it with the real world of 195 Widely Recognized Sovereign States.

Here is another example of the use of 'international' to mean the majority of the countries

To paraphrase Animal Farm, some nations are more equal than others. The opinions of, say, Peru, Andorra and Bhutan don't hold much weight.

 

[Ray]

The US's line changes and it's (making the assumption there is a line) at times difficult to discern what the line is... party politics, the press, etc. all confuse the issue. Not to mention national differences in approach to the "US line".

PC academics don't like the term "the West" anymore. They prefer the term "the North" which would make Australia even less relevant.

This is, or is meant to be, a military site. Lots of nations have been intervening in the Ukraine affairs. But, in terms of military intervention the Ukrainian government hasn't got much help, at least in comparison to the help the seperatists have received.

The Ukrainians have got covert help.

The West does not want to precipitate the crisis and give Russia a Casus belli to intervene since there is little that the NATO can do.

PC academics may not like the term "the West" anymore, but that is another tangential skulduggery to pretend it is not what it is - a conglomerate of Caucasian majority nations.

 

[militarysta]

UA Army "controffensive":

It's in some way interesting how weak in Ukrainian Army
I have read some analys in polish special militray periodics and all have the same conclusion:
- UA army is theribble weak
- command is poor -as whole C3 :/
- in border region couse russian Grad/Tornado MLRS and Msta-B fire UA army haven't any posibilities to sucesfull action
- separatist have smaller forces but mucht more command
- lack of secure Saur-Mogile region was act of tottal stupidy from UA army - especial that Wermaht in july 1943 in the same region in simmilar operation don't do sucht mistake (Hostoria vitae magistra est? It shoud be...)
- UA army 72. 24, 28 and 79 bde had sucht heavy loses that they are not longer efecctive unit able to fight -especialy 72 and 79 :/
- separatist have very big support form Russia - including tanks, ATGMS, MANPADS, special forces (GRU and others) and..artilery strikes throught the border by MLRS and 152mm Msta-B.


btw:
confirmed UA army losses in photo and video material:
at least 10x T-64BW/ BM Bulat tanks
at least 35x IFV
at least 22 APC
but real losses can be twice as that.

More or less in fight UA Army lost (in equpment) almoust whole mehanizated bde.

 

[asianobserve]

and the are the world? International? Global?

They are merely birds of the same feather flocking together.

Maybe you want me to claim "global" instead of "international" do that you can impose your line. But that's not going to happen. What was said early in this thread and your bone of contention is "international" and not "global" or "world."

Since when 10 nations become 'international'?

Since before you were born.

It is jut a 'group'.


If G7 states anything, does it make the 'international' view?

It's not just the G-7 countries that as imposed sanctions against Russia. There a lot of EU members that are not part of the G-7.

Besides, even only those G-7 countries they are already international.

I am not giving any new meaning. I am giving the connotation that is accepted as 'international'. You are propagating that if a group of nation club together and doe something, that mean the world has spoken!

What was said was international sanctions against Russia. And certainly the direct or indirect sanctions of 32 countries is "international."

I am muddling nothing. The media is an example.

I am merely trying to debunk the usual humbug that one sees that the 'international' opinion is this or that when it is only the opinion of a mere group and a drop in the ocean when comparing it with the real world of 195 Widely Recognized Sovereign States.

Here is another example of the use of 'international' to mean the majority of the countries

It's clear that your confused between "international" and "global" or "world."

International merely means more than 2 countries, it maybe 5, 20, 30, 50 or 100 countries in a particular action or agreement. "Global" or "World" on the other hand connotes something shared by a majority of the countries or peoples of the World. I believe it is the latter that you are aiming at.

 

[Ray]

@apple

Can't remember writing on this forum that I was Roman Catholic... I'm not that familiar with the Vulgate. Actually, I barely know Latin, nor am I that familiar with the Old Testament. But, I know Genesis pretty well. Do you understand the context of that blessing? Presumably you think you're telling me to go to Syria (where Jacob was going to, in Paddan-aram, is actually located in modern Turkey). Gen 28:3 is, in my opinion, less of a blessing and more of a reference to the story of Jacob's Ladder, which it immediately precedes, and have no idea why you'd be referring to that???

Never said you are a Roman Catholic, did I?

I merely said - May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and increase your numbers until you become a community of peoples.
Something like Abou Ben Adhem!

To paraphrase Animal Farm, some nations are more equal than others. The opinions of, say, Peru, Andorra and Bhutan don't hold much weight.

That smarts of total arrogance. Every man Jack and every Nation counts.

 

[asianobserve]

Your jurisprudence in India proves that circumstantial alone can be the basis of conviciton:



Apparently you missed the bold parts when you claim that = Your jurisprudence in India proves that circumstantial alone can be the basis of conviction

I did not. It is you who do not understand what your legal doctrine on conviction by circumstantial evidence means.

If you only cared to understand the aforequoted requisites for conviction on circumstantial evidence discussed by your own Supreme Court in Gambhir v. State of Maharashtra you will notice that there is no requirement for direct evidence to supplement the presented circumstantial evidence to find an accused guilty of a crime. What the requisites merely says are:

1. These circumstantial evidence must duly established;
2. These circumstantial evidence clearly points to the guilt of accused;
3. There must be more than 1 circumstance which are cumulative, meaning the more circumstantial evidence are there the stronger the case for conviction is;
4. The circumstantial evidence must only arrive at one conclusion: the guilt of the accused.

Your country's legal rule on circumstantial evidence cannot be that much different from our own since this is part of the British colonial legacy.

 

[bhramos]

Rebels

 

[bhramos]

Some new Ukrainian made equipment, KrAZ LAV Cougar, based on Streit's.

 

[Ray]

Maybe you want me to claim "global" instead of "international" do that you can impose your line. But that's not going to happen. What was said early in this thread and your bone of contention is "international" and not "global" or "world."

Since before you were born.

It's not just the G-7 countries that as imposed sanctions against Russia. There a lot of EU members that are not part of the G-7.

Besides, even only those G-7 countries they are already international.


What was said was international sanctions against Russia. And certainly the direct or indirect sanctions of 32 countries is "international."

It's clear that your confused between "international" and "global" or "world."

International merely means more than 2 countries, it maybe 5, 20, 30, 50 or 100 countries in a particular action or agreement. "Global" or "World" on the other hand connotes something shared by a majority of the countries or peoples of the World. I believe it is the latter that you are aiming at.

I was born before the world became free of the colonialists. Hope that clarifies the cobwebs in your mind.

It will do you a world of good to read this article to understand the power dynamics change from the 'old order' that was the byword and hence 'international opinion' and the emerging new order.

The Rise of China and the Future of the West
Can the Liberal System Survive?
The Rise of China and the Future of the West | Foreign Affairs

Excerpts

This unusually durable and expansive order is itself the product of farsighted U.S. leadership. After World War II, the United States did not simply establish itself as the leading world power. It led in the creation of universal institutions that not only invited global membership but also brought democracies and market societies closer together. It built an order that facilitated the participation and integration of both established great powers and newly independent states. (It is often forgotten that this postwar order was designed in large part to reintegrate the defeated Axis states and the beleaguered Allied states into a unified international (sic!) system.)

Some power transitions have led to the breakdown of the old order and the establishment of a new international hierarchy. Others have brought about only limited adjustments in the regional and global system.

Another article, you can read when you have time

The Decline of the West: Why America Must Prepare for the End of Dominance
http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...must-prepare-for-the-end-of-dominance/254779/

Therefore, what the West says is codswallop to the rest of the world NATO and EU's eastern perimeter.

 

[asianobserve]

I was born before the world became free of the colonialists. Hope that clarifies the cobwebs in your mind.

It will do you a world of good to read this article to understand the power dynamics change from the 'old order' that was the byword and hence 'international opinion' and the emerging new order.



Excerpts





Another article, you can read when you have time



Therefore, what the West says is codswallop to the rest of the world NATO and EU's eastern perimeter.

So where am I wrong from the article you quoted? The phrase "unified international system" there merely means a uniform system across several countries. Certainly a system that bounds the Allied forces and the defeated countries is an "international" one since the countries involved are more than one.

BTW, I don't know you're that old. So your more than 67 years old? Nevertheless, the tern international was already in existence even before you were born.

 

[bhramos]

"Right Sector" soldier before ambushed

 

[asianobserve]

@Ray

I cannot edit my last sentence above. Please disregard it as it is mistake. ty.