Civil & Military Bureaucracy and related discussions

[Waanar]

Then why have we kept super Jasoos of R&AW and IB in our establishment/ Their job is not only to draw fat pay package and sleep after eating Chinese opium... why spend billions on them...

We can outsources that function to CIA or Planet-lab or G-tis rather than being betrayed time and again by our own..

Our guys just copy and paste some report from somewhere and classify that as intelligence..

We need a separate thread named "Bhadra ji's gripes: Present and developing".

A single thread cannot accommodate the sheer volume of criticism he has for everything that doesn't resemble the olive green.

 

[Bhadra]

We need a separate thread named "Bhadra ji's gripes: Present and developing".

A single thread cannot accommodate the sheer volume of criticism he has for everything that doesn't resemble the olive green.

Do tell me then who will tell us what is happening the other side. Obviously those who are paid for it. And the amount of money spent on them..
I am sure If Olive green fails everywhere people will talk of outsourcing soldiering. It has been done in the past and by everyone including great Marathas who employed Europeans and Pathans of all hues as their military commanders. Every Indian state had Gorkha troops in their Army be it Jaipur, Jodhpur or J&K etc etc..

And do tell me when did our beloved Jassos did not fail. Even in a country like Nepal- a jasoos heaven...

Talk of facts not of prejudices. Personal attacks have no meaning..

 

[Compersion]

The clear review of communism is becoming prevalent each day. The civil and military bureaucracy will play a major role. The leadership(s) and righteousness will re-establish control over equity and equality with the majority.

Communism will be labelled shortly for the special elite. This 0.5 - 1%. the special breed. Communism will be explained that it is for the rich, special class and superior group. This group will be labelled to be intellectually superior and suited and fit for the elite and richest.

example will be given of PRC China - that communism brings riches and it is the system suited to manage the rich. criticism will be not on communism but the leadership. will hear stories of the rich saying how they manage their own families on communism principles. far from the truth. see how much actual greatness comes from the communism and this communism elite group.

it is a minority who wants to control the majority and using principles to control larger people and areas far beyond deserving on grounds of equality and equity - to frankly emit that such the communism elite and rich are the same to others and deserve to control them.

the poor, working class, middle class, and any others, etc etc that form the 99% will not matter ? communism will consider the poor, working class, middle class, and any others to be not worthy and wont touch them.

why this turnaround?

the label of democracy of being of the poor and working class will happen shortly. to be shown to be inefficient and unworthy.

the truth is that one will see real and true wisdom, wealth and strength come from the poor and working class and middle class. you can read it in the news already - the unknowns slowly coming up each and every day. knowledge, wisdom, wealth and strength is rising more and more each day in Bharat especially and related areas.

leaders and warriors will be the real elite not from communism group. they are also coming out. not any of the communism dejected group who thought they had the knowledge and wisdom and strength when it was temporary and was used to get them out and targeted.

communism is frankly always going to be there but the label will be changed ... but they will be determined to be what they are and that is minority. less to 0.1 - 15%.

Communism will try strike a chord with the majority but their clearness is gone. because it was always stood up on wisdom and wealth which has abandoned it. It was one family before always but see what has been done to the mother (a light shall always shine not matter if it is dark elsewhere).

What next - the real face and group behind communism will be shown to reawaken all. From cutting the nose to gold to the journey around the world ...

 

[Bhadra]

Lists of some major defence deals signed/cleared under Modi Sarkar since 2014:

Updated list 2020 with country of Orgin of the equipment.
========
2014

• 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks.
• 262 Barak-1 SAMs.

2015

• 36 Rafale Fighter Jets.
• 22 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters. (Delivery completed in 2020)
• 15 CH-47F Chinook Transport Choppers.(Delivery completed in 2020)
• 10 Heron TP MALE UAVs.
• 7 Next-Generation Stealth Frigates.
• 6 Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarines.
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (7 Squadrons).
• 428 L-70 & ZU-23 AD Guns.
• 72 Pipistrel Virus ultra light training aircraft
• 1 Missile Range instrumentation ship
• 1 Ocean Surveillance Ship

2016

• 145 M-777 Ultra Light Howitzers.
• 114 Dhanush Howitzers.
• 83 LCA Tejas Mk-1A.
• 15 Light Combat Helicopter (LCH).
• 464 T-90SM Tanks.
• BrahMos Missile (1 Regiment).
• Pinaka MBRL (2 Regiments).
• 4 P-8i Neptune.
• 2 Deep-submergence rescue vehicle(Delivery completed in 2020)

2017

• 1,58,279 Advanced Combat Helmets (ACHs).
• Barak-8 MR-SAM Systems (5 Regiments).
• Barak-8 LR-SAM Systems (4 Warships).
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (2 Regiments).
• 100 K-9 Vajra-T Howitzers.
• 44,000 Night Vision Devices (NVDs). +
• 179 HAL Light Combat Helicopters (LCHs).
• 32 HAL Dhruv Helicopters.
• 100 Barak-1 SR-SAMs.
• 2 A-50EI AWACS.
• Dornier Do228 for Indian Navy
• 12 Dornier Do228 for Indian Airforce
• 16 Anti Submarine Shallow Water corvette
• 2 Diving Support Vessel

2018

• 1,86,138 Bullet Proof Jackets (BPJs).
• 5 S-400 Triumf SAM Systems.
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (2 Regiments).
• Barak-8 LR-SAM Systems (7 Warships).
• 150 Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems.
• 6 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters.
• 22 HAL Dhruv Helicopters.
• 18 HAL Rudra Helicopters.
• 300 155mm Sharang Field Gun Systems.
• 156 BMP-2/2K Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICVs).
• NAG ATGM Systems (300 Missiles & 25 Carriers).
• 131 Barak-1 SR-SAMs.
• 240 Precision Guided Bombs.
• 2 Stealth Frigates (Project 11356).
• 2 Stealth Frigates(Goa Shipyard).
• IAI sky capture C2 system
• 4 Ocean Survey vessels for Indian Navy

2019

• 6 Diesel Electric Attack submarines(Project 75 I)
• 72,400 Sig Sauer 716 G2(7.62 X 51) (Delivery started in Mar 2020)
• 5000 ATGM
• 750,000 AK-203 Assault rifles
• ~2500 JVPC
• 24 MH-60R Naval Helicopters
• 1 Akula class nuclear submarine
• Unknown quantity Spice 2000 for 300 crores
• Unknown quantity of BVR
• NGMMCB(Next Generation Maritime Mobile Coastal Batteries)-Brahmos
• Mechanical Mine Layer (Self Propelled)
• Software defined radio for Indian Navy
• Aux Power Packs for T-72 & T-90
• EW Systems for Mountain warfare
• 1800 Sniper rifles + 2.7 Million rounds of ammunition

2020

• 21 Mig-29 + 57 Mig-29 UPG upgrade
• 12 Sukhoi-30
• 10 Ka-31 AEW&C Helicopters
• 5 Fleet Vessel Ship (Turkey + HSL)
• 16,479 Negev 7.62x51 mm LMG
• 22 Sea Guardian drones
• Unknown quantity Spice 2000 for 500 crores
• 13 Mk45(Mod 4) 127 mm Naval guns
• 248 Astra A2A missile
• Software defined Radio for IA
• Unknown quantity of Pinaka Missile
• Development of LRLACM(Long-Range Land Attack Cruise Missile Systems)
• 2nd Phase MAFI, 37 airfields upgrade.

This a long and commendable list.
The situation with most of the orders is that MoD is ordering agency. MoD is manufacturer and makers, MoD is supplier and MoD is receiver.

The govt orders unto themselves, makes and receives unto themselves... Therefore everything is subject to manipulation. the customer, the makers, the payment authority and the receivers, quality controllers and the adjudicators all are subject to manipulation specially due to internal dynamics of the government of the day. Largest manipulation factor is due to budgetary constraints and tendency of FM to withdraw funds to cater for political spending. The fact is that someone is playing monkey tricks in MoD and it is not difficult to pinpoint who.

The case in point is Dhanush and Sarang. In spite of orders in 2016 only six guns have been supplied so far in spite of massive expenditure the govt has incurred on basic infrastructure as as forging and smelting and machining.. the engineers all having been trained in foreign countries and adequate technical capabilities.

Sarang involves only change of barrel and putting it on existing structure of 130 mm... there should not be any problem in that... by now they should have been able to upgun all 300 guns . The cost of upgrade being only about one crore, large money is also not involved..

If OFB is not capable of making barrels then they should outsource it to L&T and Kalyani who can supply 155/45 barrels at short notice as their facilities are sitting idle.... BEL as it is making the FCS and other electronics.

But who cares...

 

[fire starter]

This a long and commendable list.
The situation with most of the orders is that MoD is ordering agency. MoD is manufacturer and makers, MoD is supplier and MoD is receiver.

The govt orders unto themselves, makes and receives unto themselves... Therefore everything is subject to manipulation. the customer, the makers, the payment authority and the receivers, quality controllers and the adjudicators all are subject to manipulation specially due to internal dynamics of the government of the day. Largest manipulation factor is due to budgetary constraints and tendency of FM to withdraw funds to cater for political spending. The fact is that someone is playing monkey tricks in MoD and it is not difficult to pinpoint who.

The case in point is Dhanush and Sarang. In spite of orders in 2016 only six guns have been supplied so far in spite of massive expenditure the govt has incurred on basic infrastructure as as forging and smelting and machining.. the engineers all having been trained in foreign countries and adequate technical capabilities.

Sarang involves only change of barrel and putting it on existing structure of 130 mm... there should not be any problem in that... by now they should have been able to upgun all 300 guns . The cost of upgrade being only about one crore, large money is also not involved..

If OFB is not capable of making barrels then they should outsource it to L&T and Kalyani who can supply 155/45 barrels at short notice as their facilities are sitting idle.... BEL as it is making the FCS and other electronics.

But who cares...

who is playing monkey tricks? Do u want to say that defence budget is being used on political spending.

 

[Bhadra]

Lists of some major defence deals signed/cleared under Modi Sarkar since 2014:

Updated list 2020 with country of Orgin of the equipment.
========
2014

• 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks.
• 262 Barak-1 SAMs.

2015

• 36 Rafale Fighter Jets.
• 22 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters. (Delivery completed in 2020)
• 15 CH-47F Chinook Transport Choppers.(Delivery completed in 2020)
• 10 Heron TP MALE UAVs.
• 7 Next-Generation Stealth Frigates.
• 6 Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarines.
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (7 Squadrons).
• 428 L-70 & ZU-23 AD Guns.
• 72 Pipistrel Virus ultra light training aircraft
• 1 Missile Range instrumentation ship
• 1 Ocean Surveillance Ship

2016

• 145 M-777 Ultra Light Howitzers.
• 114 Dhanush Howitzers.
• 83 LCA Tejas Mk-1A.
• 15 Light Combat Helicopter (LCH).
• 464 T-90SM Tanks.
• BrahMos Missile (1 Regiment).
• Pinaka MBRL (2 Regiments).
• 4 P-8i Neptune.
• 2 Deep-submergence rescue vehicle(Delivery completed in 2020)

2017

• 1,58,279 Advanced Combat Helmets (ACHs).
• Barak-8 MR-SAM Systems (5 Regiments).
• Barak-8 LR-SAM Systems (4 Warships).
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (2 Regiments).
• 100 K-9 Vajra-T Howitzers.
• 44,000 Night Vision Devices (NVDs). +
• 179 HAL Light Combat Helicopters (LCHs).
• 32 HAL Dhruv Helicopters.
• 100 Barak-1 SR-SAMs.
• 2 A-50EI AWACS.
• Dornier Do228 for Indian Navy
• 12 Dornier Do228 for Indian Airforce
• 16 Anti Submarine Shallow Water corvette
• 2 Diving Support Vessel

2018

• 1,86,138 Bullet Proof Jackets (BPJs).
• 5 S-400 Triumf SAM Systems.
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (2 Regiments).
• Barak-8 LR-SAM Systems (7 Warships).
• 150 Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems.
• 6 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters.
• 22 HAL Dhruv Helicopters.
• 18 HAL Rudra Helicopters.
• 300 155mm Sharang Field Gun Systems.
• 156 BMP-2/2K Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICVs).
• NAG ATGM Systems (300 Missiles & 25 Carriers).
• 131 Barak-1 SR-SAMs.
• 240 Precision Guided Bombs.
• 2 Stealth Frigates (Project 11356).
• 2 Stealth Frigates(Goa Shipyard).
• IAI sky capture C2 system
• 4 Ocean Survey vessels for Indian Navy

2019

• 6 Diesel Electric Attack submarines(Project 75 I)
• 72,400 Sig Sauer 716 G2(7.62 X 51) (Delivery started in Mar 2020)
• 5000 ATGM
• 750,000 AK-203 Assault rifles
• ~2500 JVPC
• 24 MH-60R Naval Helicopters
• 1 Akula class nuclear submarine
• Unknown quantity Spice 2000 for 300 crores
• Unknown quantity of BVR
• NGMMCB(Next Generation Maritime Mobile Coastal Batteries)-Brahmos
• Mechanical Mine Layer (Self Propelled)
• Software defined radio for Indian Navy
• Aux Power Packs for T-72 & T-90
• EW Systems for Mountain warfare
• 1800 Sniper rifles + 2.7 Million rounds of ammunition

2020

• 21 Mig-29 + 57 Mig-29 UPG upgrade
• 12 Sukhoi-30
• 10 Ka-31 AEW&C Helicopters
• 5 Fleet Vessel Ship (Turkey + HSL)
• 16,479 Negev 7.62x51 mm LMG
• 22 Sea Guardian drones
• Unknown quantity Spice 2000 for 500 crores
• 13 Mk45(Mod 4) 127 mm Naval guns
• 248 Astra A2A missile
• Software defined Radio for IA
• Unknown quantity of Pinaka Missile
• Development of LRLACM(Long-Range Land Attack Cruise Missile Systems)
• 2nd Phase MAFI, 37 airfields upgrade.

Modi govt ordered.. Modi govt makes.. Modi govt delivers..

Modi govt therefore must take all responsibilities for lapses and failures in not meeting the demands in time... Modi govt must kick the monkey act doing Babus...
I suggest put VK Singh there to sort out the MoD..

 

[ezsasa]

Sarang involves only change of barrel and putting it on existing structure of 130 mm... there should not be any problem in that... by now they should have been able to upgun all 300 guns . The cost of upgrade being only about one crore, large money is also not involved..

Sharang field trials in 2016, contract signed in Oct 2018, first delivery done In Feb 2020.
I am not sure how much faster a sales cycle can go thru.

 

[ezsasa]

Modi govt ordered.. Modi govt makes.. Modi govt delivers..

Modi govt therefore must take all responsibilities for lapses and failures in not meeting the demands in time... Modi govt must kick the monkey act doing Babus...
I suggest put VK Singh there to sort out the MoD..

Bhadra, I didn't intend this thread to be a lengthy discussion or debate thread, it was supposed to be a informative thread about various procurements in pipeline. if you have debates, take it up in an appropriate thread(link below).

Civil & Military Bureaucracy and related discussions

There is no doubt that babudom in India is blind to security and strategic factors. The Babudom is dangerous, not only for security and strategic factors but also for the common man. When a person, though, hailing from a lowest quarter, gets selected for these services, he becomes autocrat...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Bhadra]

who is playing monkey tricks? Do u want to say that defence budget is being used on political spending.

MoD. Deptt of Defense production is the coordinator and the agency ultimately responsible for Defense production.. obviously none other than that deptt and DS can play monkey tricks..

Withdrawing / surrendering money from Defense Estimates in order to meet budgetary requirements of Finance Ministry is a practice in vogue rather than being an exception..

 

[Aspirant847]

Imagine IAS or IPS officers who may have anti india feelings because they may have some personal grudge, imagine the damage they can do from inside.

remember that kashmiri IAS girl who made severe anti india posts on facebook

 

[daya]

Why should there be recruitment for IAS/IPS/Commissioned officers? Why should not there be recruitment to the lowest entry post only?

 

[Covfefe]

Why should there be recruitment for IAS/IPS/Commissioned officers? Why should not there be recruitment to the lowest entry post only?

Inherited the system from the Brits as is. This pedestal based system where you join a particular band and you're limited to it, was implemented by the Brits to segregate the higher posts for the Whites while keeping the lower ranking jobs for the Natives. This works well for a society where education is still scarce and there are only a select few who can be considered eligible to rule. Negatives include- inexperienced fellas occupying too much of roles and responsibilities, and lack of dignity in the lower ranking jobs.

But as and when societies have developed, they have done away with this system. A beat cop should have the possibility to become the police commissioner. Integrated cadres should be the ideal end state. Till then, a specific quota for departmental promotions based on academic merit and service performance must be in place eg- CAPF officers with 5+ years of service are eligible for some exclusive seats in the IPS thru a limited exam carried by UPSC, where they also get to keep their seniority based on the service duration.

 

[daya]

Inherited the system from the Brits as is. This pedestal based system where you join a particular band and you're limited to it, was implemented by the Brits to segregate the higher posts for the Whites while keeping the lower ranking jobs for the Natives. This works well for a society where education is still scarce and there are only a select few who can be considered eligible to rule. Negatives include- inexperienced fellas occupying too much of roles and responsibilities, and lack of dignity in the lower ranking jobs.

But as and when societies have developed, they have done away with this system. A beat cop should have the possibility to become the police commissioner. Integrated cadres should be the ideal end state. Till then, a specific quota for departmental promotions based on academic merit and service performance must be in place eg- CAPF officers with 5+ years of service are eligible for some exclusive seats in the IPS thru a limited exam carried by UPSC, where they also get to keep their seniority based on the service duration.

Yes. level playing field to all. Only four or five recruitment boards viz one for army, one for police, one for clerical staff and one for special skilled e.g. doctors, teachers, scientists, engineers etc.