Chinook wins heavy lift helicopter competition

[SpArK]

Thought it would be a political decision and Russians would win.

Anyway Chinook is much better for our operations!

 

[LurkerBaba]

Thought it would be a political decision and Russians would win.

Due to the Apache tender ? IMO the "political" angle is overblown, MMRCA is proof of that fact.

 

[SpArK]

Due to the Apache tender ? IMO the "political" angle is overblown, MMRCA is proof of that fact.

I was thinking of the appeasement towards Russians due to recent events.

 

[LurkerBaba]

I was thinking of the appeasement towards Russians due to recent events.

Which events are you referring to ?

 

[sayareakd]

always felt Chinook, is like double decker bus.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Boeing's Chinook Wins Indian Heavy Copter Fight

Another one in the bag for Boeing. Reports today suggest that Boeing's CH-47F Chinook has beaten Russia's Mi-26T2 to meet an Indian Air Force requirement for 15 heavy-lift multirole helicopters. The Chinook has emerged the more competitively priced of the two helicopters following scrutiny of commercial bids that were opened late September.


Livefist: Flash! Boeing's Chinook Wins Indian Heavy Copter Fight

 

[mayfair]

Which events are you referring to ?

The spat over Vikramaditya, postponement of Putin's visit among others, perhaps?

 

[Yusuf]

First up there was comparison with the Russian helo bein way bigger. It was also a foregone conclusion that Chinook will win.

But what I would like to know since all kinds of costs are factored in including life cycle costs, since te Russian chopper is way bigger, given the role of the chopper, what about the cost of moving cargo for a given tonnage. I mean if we had to move 1000 tons of cargo, which chopper will move it cheaper? Russian one will certainly require lesser sorties.

 

[asianobserve]

First up there was comparison with the Russian helo bein way bigger. It was also a foregone conclusion that Chinook will win.

But what I would like to know since all kinds of costs are factored in including life cycle costs, since te Russian chopper is way bigger, given the role of the chopper, what about the cost of moving cargo for a given tonnage. I mean if we had to move 1000 tons of cargo, which chopper will move it cheaper? Russian one will certainly require lesser sorties.

For single trip cargoes that can be carried by Chinook I have no doubt that the cost of cargo per tonnage in that helo(Chinnok) will be cheaper than the Mi26. But for outsized cargoes that cannot be handled by Chinook then there's no point in comparing cargo cost as there's no comparison. The big question is for those situations where the Chinook needs to make several trips, I cannot be certain.

But this is not talking about the other capabilities of Chinook like special ops...

 

[Yusuf]

For cargoes that can be carried by Chinook I have no doubt that the cost of cargo per tonnage in that helo(Chinnok) will be cheaper than the Mi26. But for outsized cargoes that cannot be handled by Chinook then there's no point in comparing cargo cost as there's no comparison.

I am not talking about small cargos on a single sortie based costs..
I am talking about a task based cost and then calculated over te life cycle.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

I think is the effect of bad business in the case of INS Vikramaditya........

 

[asianobserve]

I am not talking about small cargos on a single sortie based costs..
I am talking about a task based cost and then calculated over te life cycle.

You can throw in engine reliability, engine service life, fuel consumption, how many times the aircraft will be serviced (will bog down), the ground crew needed to maintain the helo... not to mention the need to lease private heavy lift helicopters for temporary relief if the heavy helo purchased cannot be flown due to no or delayed replacement parts.

 

[Yusuf]

You can throw in engine reliability, engine service life, fuel consumption, how many times the aircraft will be serviced (will bog down), the ground crew needed to maintain the helo... not to mention the need to lease private heavy lift helicopters for temporary relief if the heavy helo purchased cannot be flown due to no or delayed replacement parts.

Exactly.
Example sake if 10,000 tons has to be transported by these heavy lift choppers. Say about 5 pressed into service. It's Russian haulage capacity vs the efficiency and reliability of the chinook whih has to be converted into cost.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Not only we will get them at low price but USA will deliver it lot quicker...

quite correct

seriusly quicker than russians

 

[sathya]

i think its going to be a special ops copter rather than a regular battle field tactical one since we are buying only 15.

just like C 130j..

 

[chase]

Russia deserved this........providing crappy material in ins vikramaditya atleast we were lucky that the shit was busted in the trials otherwise we would have got that crap and imagine the problem it would have caused if there was a conflict

 

[Razor]

Chinook is significantly smaller and lighter than Mi-26. It is natural it would be cheaper than the Russian Goliath.

Mi-26

Afghanistan Chinook recovery
In Spring 2002, a civilian Mi-26 was leased to recover two U.S. Army MH-47E Chinook helicopters from a mountain in Afghanistan. The Chinooks, operated by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, had been employed in Operation Anaconda, an effort to drive al Qaeda and Taliban fighters out of the Shahi-Kot Valley and surrounding mountains. They ended up stranded on the slopes above Sirkhankel at altitudes of 2,600 metres (8,500 ft) and 3,100 metres (10,200 ft). While the second was too badly damaged to recover, the first was determined to be reparable and estimated to weigh 12,000 kilograms (26,000 lb) (with all fuel, rotors, and non-essential equipment removed), which exceeded the maximum CH-53E payload of 9,100 kilograms (20,000 lb) at an altitude of 2,600 metres (8,500 ft).[2]

The Mi-26 was located through Skylink Aviation in Toronto, which had connections with a Russian company called Sportsflite that operated three civilian Mi-26 versions called "Heavycopters". One of the aircraft, doing construction and firefighting work in neighboring Tajikistan, was leased for $300,000; it lifted the Chinook with a hook and flew it to Kabul, then later to Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan to ship to Fort Campbell, Kentucky for repairs. Six months later, a second U.S. Army CH-47 that had made a hard landing 100 miles (160 km) north of Bagram at an altitude of 1,200 metres (3,900 ft) was recovered by another Sportsflite-operated Mi-26 Heavycopter.[2]

Mil Mi-26: Afghanistan Chinook recovery

That's how big the Mi-26 is.
But I guess the requirement (multi-mission rather than heavy lift) and the pricing made the difference.

 

[Tronic]

Exactly.
Example sake if 10,000 tons has to be transported by these heavy lift choppers. Say about 5 pressed into service. It's Russian haulage capacity vs the efficiency and reliability of the chinook whih has to be converted into cost.

The Air Staff Qualitative Requirements are based on the most likely use of the chopper. The Chinook is not in the same class as the Mi-26 when it comes to hauling capacity, so it means that the priority lay elsewhere. You could trade off speed and maneuverability for a greater hauling capacity, but than that is decided by the ASQRs based on how you plan to use the product.

 

[Ray]

i think its going to be a special ops copter rather than a regular battle field tactical one since we are buying only 15.

just like C 130j..

MH-47G

The MH-47G Special Operations Aviation (SOA) version is currently being delivered to the US Army. It is similar to the MH-47E, but features a more sophisticated avionics including a digital Common Avionics Architecture System (CAAS). The CAAS is a common glass cockpit used by different helicopters such as MH-60K/Ls, CH-53E/Ks, and ARH-70As. The MH-47G will also incorporate all of the new sections of the CH-47F.

Based on operational experience in Afghanistan, the CH-47 was found to be an effective substitute for the UH-60 Black Hawk as an assault helicopter. With its larger payload, range, and higher operating speed, one Chinook can replace up to five UH-60s in this role as an air assault transport.

The new modernization program will improve MH-47D and MH-47E Special Operations Chinooks to the MH-47G design specs. A total of 25 MH-47E and 11 MH-47D aircraft were upgraded by the end of 2003. In 2002 the army announced plans to expand the Special Operations Aviation Regiment. The expansion would add 12 additional MH-47G helicopters. On 10 February 2011, Leaders and employees from the H-47 program gathered for a ceremony at Boeing's helicopter facility in Ridley Township, PA., to commemorate the delivery of the final MH-47G Chinook to U.S. Army Special Operations Command.

Wiki

 

[Ray]

In any battle, optimum use and management of 'reserves' play an important role and can change the combat ratio to win the battle.

The problem is that such reserves when moved prematurely can cause an imbalance, in case the enemy attack was a 'feint' or a 'subsidiary'.

If moved on foot or vehicles, the entry of the reserves would be late or would require a 'fighting entry' and thus would be depleted in strength, equipment or ammunition.

However, if moved in time, the reserve would be fresh, would have merged and adjusted to the combat situation and would be able to change the complexion of battle.

Reserves moved by helicopters can be done at the penultimate moment, after 'reading the battle' in its entirety and would be timely.

Heavy lift helicopters for such reserve management would prove most efficient a mode than moving on ground.

This will be more so in the mountains.