Chinese Troops Intrude into Indian Territory in Ladakh!!!

what options India have if china doesn't pull back from ladakh?


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TrueSpirit

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Nehru & his establishment were Utopian dreamers. We know for a fact that how hellbent he was upon walking down the coveted aisle in Norway, for what he presumed as his contribution to world peace. Had he ever been a cold, calculating realist, outcome of 1962 would have been markedly otherwise. In the years before war, he systemically undermined the institution tasked with defense of the nation by supplanting IA with his cronies. He at times, even dared to contemplate the dismantling of IA, so wary & immature he was in matters of consequence. Well, things are a little bit different now. The mettle, professionalism & training of our armed forced have already set benchmarks world over. With increasing national resources towards IA's disposal, we are already in a different league now. Except for our political/diplomat class that continues to display its pusillanimous attitude towards our Chinese friends, militarily we are capable enough of holding our own against the PLA & the Chicoms stooges simultaneously.
 

amoy

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Chairman Mao line @roma envisaged is out of question under current circumstances. When Mao and Zhou put forward the "swap" deal China was earnest to bail herself out of isolation even at the cost of Chinese territory as China was under embargo and in confrontation with the US over Korea and Taiwan. But then Nehru rejected amid the conceit of being in a position of strength and instructed arrogantly to "throw them out". How can China make more concessions now that the relative strength of India and China has been reversed in China's favour? It's India who is the most isolated in South Asia, being encircled by the string of pearls.

As a reference, after economic recovery Putin and Medvedev paid unprecedented visits to Kurils and pledged investments there to fortify Russian grip of S. Kurils. Is it imaginable Yeltsin was even willing to cede 2 islands of South Kurils to Japan in exchange for aids back in 1990s?

Furthermore, in no hurry shall China be to resolve the boundary with India before a strategy is fully thought out, always bearing in mind the all-weather partnership with Pakistan. It will lead to loss of the balance on the subcontinent if China rushes to appease India who will never stop undermining China by all means in a wishful thinking. Never shall any blunder of that sort be made to risk alienating Pakistan who's pivotal in China's Afghanistan strategy and gateway to Arabian Sea and the Gulf.
 
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TrueSpirit

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A 2 year old article...helps with some relevant insights into the bigger picture....

Tajikistan Cedes Land to China - A Step Towards Af-Kash-Bet?



This week, China and Tajikistan announced that they have settled their old border dispute. Under this settlement, Tajikistan ceded 386 sq miles or 1,000 sq km of land to China in the remote Pamir mountain range. China said that the move thoroughly solved their century-old border dispute. Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei gave no details on the treaty but said that the dispute was solved "according to universally recognized norms of international law through equal consultations".

Right, China and Tajikistan dealt in "equal consultations" when China has become the largest investor in Tajikistan. The above is the extent of the coverage by BBC and Washington Post. The New York Times did not even cover this story.

So why should we care about a tiny piece of land in the remote, sparsely populated Pamir mountain range? Read our reasoning below.

Where is the Pamir range? It runs along the Tajikistan's border with Afghanistan and China. Why is that important? Remember the story about Afghanistan containing over a trillion dollars of mineral reserves. China got the first contract to mine these reserves.

The land deal begins to make sense in the context of China's long term interests in Afghanistan. But why should a small piece of land matter so much? The answer usually lies in the maps. Look at the map below from Wikipedia and focus on the "Corridor de Wakhan".






The Wakhan Corridor

Look at the small white corridor titled "Corridor de Wakhan" that leads from mainland Afghanistan to China. This small corridor , about 10-40 miles wide and about 140 miles, is the only land border between China & Afghanistan. This corridor was carved out to separate the Russian sphere that included Tajikistan from the pre-1947 India. This agreement was sealed between England and Russia in 1873.

Today, the Wakhan corridor sits between Tajikistan and Pakistan, or more specifically the Pakistani-occupied portion of Kashmir. India's unequivocal position is that this part of Kashmir is an integral part of India.

So if you are China with unlimited amounts of money, with an increasingly aggressive military and with far-reaching long-term interests in Afghanistan, would you be satisfied with the tiny Wakhan corridor as your only link to Afghanistan?

We wouldn't. This is why we believe the land ceded by Tajikistan to China is just above the Wakhan corridor and that would enable China to build a wider, more robust military infrastructure connecting Afghanistan with China.

And what part of China is this? It is the Xinjiang province where the Chinese faced riots by the local Uighurs. Based on what we read, China plans to make Xinjiang its springboard in to Central Asia. It has already become the largest investor in Tajikistan and a major investor in Kyrgyzstan. Remember, Kyrgyzstan has the Manas airbase that is used by the US airforce to supply Afghanistan from the north.

Do you know who was the Chinese Leader in charge of Xinjiang until recently? It was Xi Jinping who will take over as the President of China in 2013. This is another reason why we think this small deal between Tajikistan and China is much more important than it seems.

After Tajikistan & Kyrgyzstan, the next step is a deeper foray into Afghanistan, a business foray while US troops remain in Afghanistan and a different kind of foray after US troops leave Afghanistan. But Tajikistan is only one part of the access to Afghanistan. The other part is below the Wakhan corridor and through Pakistan or Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.


(source - wikipedia)


Remember that China is a strategic ally of Pakistan and Pakistan gets substantial aid from China. But the American involvement in and aid to Pakistan is much much larger. So as long as American troops remain in Afghanistan, China & Pakistan will mind their manners.

But once America leaves Afghanistan, China will become Pakistan's sole patron. Will China then hold "equal consultations" with Pakistan and sign a deal for Pakistan to cede the land below the Wakhan Corridor to China?

Look at the map below to see how logical this is. Look the Wakhan Corridor in the northwest corner of the map below. The area in green just below the Wakhan corridor is called the Gilgit Agency, the Northern Areas or Baltistan. The capital of this area is Gilgit. It is a bit hard to see but Gilgit is located just above the orange highway line above and to the left & above of the word Northern Areas.


(Map of Kashmir, source - wikipedia)

China is already building a railway line between Gilgit and Kashgar, the principal town in China's Xinjiang province. China is already constructing power plants in this Northern Area with the "permission" of Pakistan.


Will Pakistan Cede the Gilgit-Baltistan area to China a la Tajikistan?

So how natural would it be for China to make a deal to "let" Pakistan cede this green Northern area to China in exchange for money, military and strategic assistance to Pakistan's military? Very natural we think, especially after America leaves Afghanistan.

This is not just conjecture and China is not waiting passively for America's withdrawal. Last August, Selig Harrison broke the story in the New York Times that Pakistan is handing de facto control of the Gilgit-Baltistan region to China. This created a firestorm in strategic circles. Read our September 2010 article titled Baltistan - Where the World Meets for its Next Geo-Crisis? for a detailed discussion of that story.

Once China gets the Northern Area of Kashmir, look at the map above to see how vulnerable the Indian areas of Ladakh becomes. It gets sandwiched between Chinese Tibet to its right, Chinese-occupied Aksai Chin to its northeast and the Chinese-occupied, Pakistan-ceded Northern Area of Kashmir to its northwest. And China already claims large areas of Ladakh as its own territory.

By the way, this is all historically consistent. Through out history, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Tibet have been politically and administratively administered by the same Sovereign entity. Our acronym for this broad region at the top of the world is Af-Kash-Bet.

Remember, a mere 65 years ago, the Sovereign of the entire Af-Kash-Bet region was British-administered India. The British-led Indian Army occupied Tibet as its protector; Kashmir was a part of India and Afghanistan was a suzerain of British-administered India.

Will China become the next Sovereign of Af-Kash-Bet? Not as long as American troops remain in Afghanistan. But after America leaves? For a more detailed scenario analysis of that, read our December 2009 article titled The Battle For Afghanistan, Kashmir & Tibet - A Post-American Withdrawal View Of The Region .


Why is Af-Kash-Bet Important?

There is enormous geographical, geo-strategic and geo-commercial advantage to the control of Af-Kash-Bet. Af-Kash-Bet spans the entire Himalayan range. This is no longer the inhospitable terrain it has been through out history. China is already building a railway network across the Himalayan range to integrate areas under its control today. Look what Af-Kash-Bet opens up for China.

In the northwest, it opens up the entire Central Asian region, rich with mineral and energy resources. As the New York Times reports, China is already extending its footprints into Central Asia .

To the west, it allows control of the famous silk route, the old trading route that connects China with Iran, Iraq and Turkey.

To the southwest, it allows access to the Persian Gulf through Balochistan and Pakistan. To the south, it controls access to the Indo-Gangetic plain, India's heartland.

To the southeast, it allows easy access to the Bay of Bengal through Bangla Desh and Burma. To the Northeast, it controls access to South East Asia.

In other words, control over Af-Kash-Bet will allow China to become a modern equivalent of 19th century Britain.

An early move in a long-term geo-strategic chess game?

When considered in the above perspective, the ceding of land by Tajikistan to China does not seem small or insignificant. On the contrary, it seems like an early move in a long game of geostrategic chess played for huge global stakes.

This is one reason the US-India strategic relationship makes natural sense. But that requires American presence in Afghanistan for at least the next 10 years.

Source: Cinema Rasik: Tajikistan Cedes Land to China - A Step Towards Af-Kash-Bet?
 

mattster

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Of course, and the red lines China has drawn for itself are the core interests of the Tibet, Xinjiang, the SCS, and the Senkakus. If India crosses those, then India loses its dear friend and partner as well.

The actions listed above are merely the actions China will take after its own redlines are crossed by an external actor.
Guys.......lets get one thing straight......there are no redlines by China.

THIS IS JUST OLD-FASHIONED BULLYING BY CHINA......NO DIFFERENT FROM THE BIG SCHOOLYARD BULLY PICKING ON THE SMALLER KIDS.

Believe me that having lived within a Chinese community during my younger years......I know something about the Chinese mentality. There is simply no end to the GREED of the Chinese.......its their biggest strength and weakness !!

What this means for India is very simple - As long as the Chinese can punch you in face and leave you with a bleeding nose without any repercussions, then they will continue to do it till the F**king cows come home.

Indians who think that they can get the Chinese to act otherwise are "delusional idiots" and India is full of them........people who have no understanding of Chinese culture, mentality, or history.
China and India are in a perpetual confrontational relationship because India is the only country that has any hope of challenging China's dominance......even if India is much weaker than China today.

As long as India is militarily weak.......be prepared to get punched in the nose again. China has border problems with Russians but you dont see them building tents 15 Km inside the Russian border.....do you ??
 
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Ray

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As long as India is militarily weak.......be prepared to get punched in the nose again. China has border problems with Russians but you dont see them building tents 15 Km inside the Russian border.....do you ??
Nor daring to do it with Vietnam!
 

CCTV

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Nor daring to do it with Vietnam!
There are no border dispute between Vietnam , Russia and China....on land.


Btw, India is the only country have border issue with China on land.


Ps, do you know most of India 's neighbors have border dispute with India ?

=======================

-------------Infraction handed---------------
 

Kunal Biswas

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Border disputes are border disputes regardless land or sea..

Obviously.. coz we share land mass with China not sea, If we did i am sure like everyone we would have dipute over water too ?

====================


Keep that ' ps ' to you next time, Its not wise to flame-bait around mods here..

There are no border dispute between Vietnam , Russia and China....on land.


Btw, India is the only country have border issue with China on land.
 

roma

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Chairman Mao line @roma envisaged is out of question under current circumstances. When Mao and Zhou put forward the "swap" deal China was earnest to bail herself out of isolation even at the cost of Chinese territory as China was under embargo and in confrontation with the US over Korea and Taiwan. But then Nehru rejected amid the conceit of being in a position of strength and instructed arrogantly to "throw them out". How can China make more concessions now that the relative strength of India and China has been reversed in China's favour? It's India who is the most isolated in South Asia, being encircled by the string of pearls.
As a reference, after economic recovery Putin and Medvedev paid unprecedented visits to Kurils and pledged investments there to fortify Russian grip of S. Kurils. Is it imaginable Yeltsin was even willing to cede 2 islands of South Kurils to Japan in exchange for aids back in 1990s?

Furthermore, in no hurry shall China be to resolve the boundary with India before a strategy is fully thought out, always bearing in mind the all-weather partnership with Pakistan. It will lead to loss of the balance on the subcontinent if China rushes to appease India who will never stop undermining China by all means in a wishful thinking. Never shall any blunder of that sort be made to risk alienating Pakistan who's pivotal in China's Afghanistan strategy and gateway to Arabian Sea and the Gulf.

- we are in no hurry - no agreement allows us to roam around in SCS with vietnam and more importantly in the Japan Sea with japan and s korea !

- hey japan is solid contra ccp and india could sure learn a thing or two from the japanese attitude towards ccp !

but lets see what Le kequain has to say when he comes for visit on may 19 or so -

no hurry - - let our defence manufacturing catch up with china - max 20 - 30 years - the past few decades we caught up some - even with all the leakages - things are looking better for the future and younger generation is no Mr N ! huh no way !

so why tie ourselves down by locking ourselves in at this time ? - we should seriously consider JAPAN as a serious long-term ally as we see eye to eye with them on most issues , they are more solid than usa contra ccp and out millitary can learn some guts from them !

so leave the AC border unresolved !
 
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average american

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There are no border dispute between Vietnam , Russia and China....on land.


Btw, India is the only country have border issue with China on land.


Ps, do you know most of India 's neighbors have border dispute with India ?

=======================

-------------Infraction handed---------------
Think you are wrong there.

Videographic: China's territorial claims - YouTube

CHINA considers TAIWAN as a renegade province. Chinese Nationalists retreated to the island in 1949 after losing to the Communists in a mainland civil war. CHINA also disputes two sections of the boundary with RUSSIA, a 33-km section of boundary with NORTH KOREA in the Paektu-san (mountain) area, and a maritime boundary with VIETNAM in the Gulf of Tonkin. Paracel Islands is occupied by China, but claimed by Vietnam and Taiwan. China claims the Japanese-administered Senkaku-shoto (Senkaku Islands/Diaoyu Tai), as does Taiwan.
 

amoy

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just too bad ....remains unresolved - we to are in no hurry -rules out friendship - and shows your true character - so it's simply a matter of who is the stronger ? so much for chinese culture !

of course that is your opinion , so unless you are 50cents paid by ccp , let's instead see what Le kequain has to say when he comes for visit on may 19 or so
Lady I admire a woman coming up with good thoughts but cant tolerate your poking your nose into privacy such as personal income - rupees / cents a member earns, so I report your offence . @mods
 

Compersion

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the question still has not been answered. why did the incursion into Indian Territory in Ladakh happen and at that time. it would be good to have a analysis from the Chinese side. And not a answer that is molded and adjusted after the event. As a responsible country you do not provoke militarily a event in such a manner. The potential for friendship and relationship between India and China is great but it must be done with realism on what is actually happening inside PRC.
 

average american

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Theres not much question about why the incursion happen, its China standard modus operandi to claim more then what they want in order to settle for what they want. Its kind of like a theief stealing your money and then agreeing to give you back half if you will forget about it..
 

roma

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Theres not much question about why the incursion happen, its China standard modus operandi to claim more then what they want in order to settle for what they want. Its kind of like a theief stealing your money and then agreeing to give you back half if you will forget about it..
good points and i feel it goes beyond that - they have become rather greedy or ambitious whichever - they would now want a corridor to tajikistan and so an open road to central asia and perhaps a bullet-train link to iran and through it to the araban sea as an alternative route to the one trough pakistan as that latter countru is too unstable and close to india

i think the ccp is gradually developoing iran as another partner in mischief in addiiton to pakistan which as mention may become unreliable and too pliable by the usa

iran as we know is less co-operative with the usa and so fits nicely for use by CCP, besides giving them the land link to the arabian sea oil routes

....one simple confirmation is if we know of any ports in south iran being developed by ccp already in progress or soon to be started ?
 
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MAYURA

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Theres not much question about why the incursion happen, its China standard modus operandi to claim more then what they want in order to settle for what they want. Its kind of like a theief stealing your money and then agreeing to give you back half if you will forget about it..

who says average americans are not upto mark in understanding china?
 

amoy

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good points and i feel it goes beyond that - they have become rather greedy or ambitious whichever - they would now want a corridor to tajikistan and so an open road to central asia and perhaps a bullet-train link to iran and through it to the araban sea as an alternative route to the one trough pakistan as that latter countru is too unstable and close to india

i think the ccp is gradually developoing iran as another partner in mischief in addiiton to pakistan which as mention may become unreliable and too pliable by the usa

iran as we know is less co-operative with the usa and so fits nicely for use by CCP, besides giving them the land link to the arabian sea oil routes

....one simple confirmation is if we know of any ports in south iran being developed by ccp already in progress or soon to be started ?
are u talking abt an Iran on Mars? India, Iran talk Chabahar port funding - Hindustan Times

so India is using Iran against US?
 

roma

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are u talking abt an Iran on Mars? India, Iran talk Chabahar port funding - Hindustan Times

so India is using Iran against US?
good move by india - may help slow down CCP's ability to do mischief in the region ( ref gwadar )

also ref http://cinemarasik.com/2011/01/15/tajikistan-cedes-land-to-china---a-step-towards-af-kash-bet.aspx - especially the wakhan corridor

and to answer the qn : india and usa are increasingly co-operating and becoming more of allies each year
 
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t_co

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good move by india - may help slow down CCP's ability to do mischief in the region ( ref gwadar )

also ref Cinema Rasik: Tajikistan Cedes Land to China - A Step Towards Af-Kash-Bet? - especially the wakhan corridor

and to answer the qn : india and usa are increasingly co-operating and becoming more of allies each year
Would be interesting if Iran could be "persuaded" to create an incident using naval patrol craft launched from ports that India has constructed. Nothing would be funnier than USN bombs or spec ops teams blowing up piers that Indian construction firms built.
 

amoy

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good move by india - may help slow down CCP's ability to do mischief in the region ( ref gwadar )

also ref Cinema Rasik: Tajikistan Cedes Land to China - A Step Towards Af-Kash-Bet? - especially the wakhan corridor

and to answer the qn : india and usa are increasingly co-operating and becoming more of allies each year
By cozying up with Iran the arch enemy of America and its true buddy Israel??

again remind me of one of 36 "stratagems", let India climb up to the roof, then remove the ladder. :thumb:


In a separate thread I wrote China India rivalry is way beyond "territorial dispute"
 

MAYURA

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again remind me of one of 36 "stratagems", let India climb up to the roof, then remove the ladder.


In a separate thread I wrote China India rivalry is way beyond "territorial dispute"

we learnt it from chinese.
 
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