Chinese Navy Destroyers

[SexyChineseLady]

I don't mean to troll but numbers have always been central to chinese military strategy. So confidence can't be gauged by numbers as for as china is concerned.

Not really, capital ships are too expensive to builts lots and lots without confidence in them. Even frigates are too expensive to just mass produce without confidence.

In fact, China had built small DDG classes in ones and twos like the 051B and 051C in the 1980s. This changed only with the 052C (and 054A for FFGs.)

Interesting to read that the P15A ends after 3 ships and now P15B will go three as well. China went with two with the 052B but then went 6 with the 052C. Then mass produced the 052D to 13 (and counting.) Now the Type 055 will certainly go through its variants too.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

052B:

No confidence in this class. So only two were ever built.

052C/D has at least 19!

 

[IndianHawk]

052B:

No confidence in this class. So only two were ever built.

052C/D has at least 19!

The way I see it 052 B was only stepping stones for C/D and were never supposed to be mass produced.

Obviously C/D are better than A/B
But that proves nothing against other international systems

 

[SexyChineseLady]

054 :

The way I see it 052 B was only stepping stones for C/D and were never supposed to be mass produced.

Obviously C/D are better than A/B
But that proves nothing against other international systems

If the 052B was good enough they would have made a lot more of that. If it were just numbers they would just build tons of B's, why bother continue developing better versions? But that is the point, they would go through different variants to develop the one they like and then mass produce it.

And the 052D is produced in unprecedented numbers even for China and China is in a neighborhood full of powerful Aegis systems.

Again you can't really compare these systems unless there were war but you can gauge confidence.

So if both the Chinese Navy and the US Pentagon see the Type 346 APAR as a system deserving of numbers (PLAN) and concern (Pentagon) then that's a pretty good indication of its capabilities.

 

[FactsPlease]

@SexyChineseLady :
1) Any idea when PLAN will start to deploy gas turbine on its frigates fleet? At a time most navy are doing that.
2) Any idea will the (new) towed array will be deployed to all 054A?
3) Any idea PLAN will do with the different VLS between HHQ-16 and HHQ-9B? Will it try to combine it? I will say not that efficient if LRSAM and MRSAM can not be put together
Sorry posting questions and thanks in advance

 

[Spectribution]

Okay those are all ASMs though Klub has ASuM variant. In that vein, it is the same as the Russian VLS so that is different from the Chinese description for universal launcher.

China till now has no brahmos equivalent deployed in its destroyers. Only klub style yj 18. CX 1 will only be operational in 055 based on p 800 or ss 22.

Chinese VLS is much bigger than US due to same problem as India, miniaturising of missiles. Hence type 055 will have 96 - 112 cells despite having tonnage of ticonderoga class.

 

[Spectribution]

I was speaking in terms of the program numbers and speed of deployment:

Atago -- two since 2004 launch (ended)
Sejong -- three since 2007 (3 more)
052D -- THIRTEEN (so far) since 2012 launch

Yes in terms of single ship firepower, the Sejong and Atago are even more powerful with 120 and 90 VLS respectively! But they are expensive, limited in numbers and will be matched by Type055.

China has very powerful neighbors who are racially similiar so this is sibling rivalry that will push China to advance faster and faster.

Race has nothing to do with this. It's about budgets and priorities.

Size of chinese VLS is bigger so similar tonnage with less vls cells.

 

[J20!]

I agree that UVLS are a notable achievement, but the radar is the sight of a ship; if the range of 52's radar is not good even when it has tremendous firepower then in battle it will be like a strong man with poor vision, what will happen then you can guess yourself, methinks.

The AESA arrays on the Type 052D are much larger than the arrays on the Type 052C. There are four of them, covering 360 degrees around the ship.

How can they have "poor range"? Do you have some specifications on them that I might have missed?

 

[J20!]

China till now has no brahmos equivalent deployed in its destroyers. Only klub style yj 18. CX 1 will only be operational in 055 based on p 800 or ss 22.

Chinese VLS is much bigger than US due to same problem as India, miniaturising of missiles. Hence type 055 will have 96 - 112 cells despite having tonnage of ticonderoga class.

Are you sure about that?

That's the YJ12A being tested from slanting launchers on one of the PLAN's test ships. If its being tested on a slanting launcher then you can be sure that it might feature on the Type 052B(which has 16 launchers), Type 052C(8 launchers) and almost certainly on the 4 Sovremeny DDG's(8 launchers each) being refitted with Chinese radar and missile systems.

+We don't really know which ASM's feature on the 052D's and Type 055's VLS launchers...

Not to make this a D*** measuring contest, but YJ12 out-ranges Brahmos significantly.and is said to reach 3.2 mach when air-launched.

 

[J20!]

For want of a better place to post this, another PLAn test ship recently tested this SAM with a MASSIVE booster stage from the navy's largest (9m deep) universal VLS tube. Speculation is rife as to whether this is a naval ABM test or something else:

As someone rightly pointed out, typical ABM's don't need such a large booster. Could it be this missile instead? The HQ8, which apparently uses a trajectory where it will first climb to 40km altitude before descending back into atmosphere to intercept some target that is 500km away flying at 15km altitude. For such a flight profile the missile would probably need a large booster, as seen on the missile that's just been tested.

Taking the super large AAM that was photographed on a J16 recently, it's starting to look like a trend with the Chinese Armed forces; using missiles with ballistic trajectories to perform very long range intercepts.

Its a lot of "if's" I know, but IF these missiles are fitted onto the Type052D and/or the Type 055 destroyers, they would become some of the most fearsome AAW destroyers out there.

The Type 052D's rear VLS launchers sit a good 3 meters higher than the fore VLS. Could those be the 9m universal VLS tubes?

@shiphone @no smoking, what do you guys think?

 

[Spectribution]

Are you sure about that?

That's the YJ12A being tested from slanting launchers on one of the PLAN's test ships. If its being tested on a slanting launcher then you can be sure that it might feature on the Type 052B(which has 16 launchers), Type 052C(8 launchers) and almost certainly on the 4 Sovremeny DDG's(8 launchers each) being refitted with Chinese radar and missile systems.

+We don't really know which ASM's feature on the 052D's and Type 055's VLS launchers...

Not to make this a D*** measuring contest, but YJ12 out-ranges Brahmos significantly.and is said to reach 3.2 mach when air-launched.

YJ 12 A and Brahmos are oranges and apples.

YJ 12A is based on kh 31 which is an air launched missile. Brahmos is based on P 800 , the successor to the P 270 Moskit on which the KH 31 is based.

Brahmos is designed for sea skimming supersonic performance, yj 12 is for high altitude.

Brahmos is more maneuverable and can perform a S maneuver before impact and has the record for supersonic steep dive. YJ 18 is more akin to ss n 22 class that are designed as flashers than dancers.

Brahmos already has been tested for upto 500 km using advanced guidance systems. Now India can openly manufacture 600 km+ brahmos as we have ratified MCTR.

https://sputniknews.com/military/20121009176500812/

ASM for type 052D is yj 18 or klub and 055 is yj 18 + yj 12a.

 

[Spectribution]

For want of a better place to post this, another PLAn test ship recently tested this SAM with a MASSIVE booster stage from the navy's largest (9m deep) universal VLS tube. Speculation is rife as to whether this is a naval ABM test or something else:

As someone rightly pointed out, typical ABM's don't need such a large booster. Could it be this missile instead? The HQ8, which apparently uses a trajectory where it will first climb to 40km altitude before descending back into atmosphere to intercept some target that is 500km away flying at 15km altitude. For such a flight profile the missile would probably need a large booster, as seen on the missile that's just been tested.

Taking the super large AAM that was photographed on a J16 recently, it's starting to look like a trend with the Chinese Armed forces; using missiles with ballistic trajectories to perform very long range intercepts.

Its a lot of "if's" I know, but IF these missiles are fitted onto the Type052D and/or the Type 055 destroyers, they would become some of the most fearsome AAW destroyers out there.

The Type 052D's rear VLS launchers sit a good 3 meters higher than the fore VLS. Could those be the 9m universal VLS tubes?

@shiphone @no smoking, what do you guys think?

Ship based anti ship ballistic missile or DF21D.

India uses Shaurya missile for same purpose but it is land based.

 

[J20!]

Brahmos is designed for sea skimming supersonic performance, yj 12 is for high altitude.

First of all, you're making that up WRT YJ12A. You don't know. No one in the civilian realm has seen YJ12A maneuver at its terminal stage.

Brahmos, like any other sea skimming cruise missile flies at high altitude for most of its flight path and drops to low altitude at its terminal stage to achieve its stated 290km range.

If it where to fly a lo-lo flight path, its range is reduced to 120km, much like the missile its based on, the P800 Oniks. Like any other Ramjet powered missile, it achieves its greatest range when flying at high altitude. To deny that is to deny basic physics.

Brahmos is more maneuverable and can perform a S maneuver before impact and has the record for supersonic steep dive. YJ 18 is more akin to ss n 22 class that are designed as flashers than dancers.

What? Even subsonic missiles like the Harpoon, Exocet and YJ63 perform intricate flight maneuvers at the terminal stage let alone new gen missiles like YJ12A. Its not something new just because brahmos does it too. Missiles have been performing terminal evasive maneuvers for decades now.

Brahmos already has been tested for upto 500 km using advanced guidance systems. Now India can openly manufacture 600 km+ brahmos as we have ratified MCTR.

https://sputniknews.com/military/20121009176500812/

ASM for type 052D is yj 18 or klub and 055 is yj 18 + yj 12a.

I'll wait for official confirmation of that, not "sputnik news".

Can you show me a picture of a Type 052D launching a YJ18? The klub suggestion is false since no Russian missiles feature on any Chinese ships launched since the s300 on the Type 051C DDG's. I'd be very interested to see it since to my knowledge, no such picture has ever been released. We don't know which ASM is embarked on the in service Type 052D's.

 

[J20!]

Ship based anti ship ballistic missile or DF21D.

India uses Shaurya missile for same purpose but it is land based.

Nah. That's too small to be the DF21D.

Are there any actual plans to use Shaurya in an AntiShipping role?

 

[Spectribution]

First of all, you're making that up WRT YJ12A. You don't know. No one in the civilian realm has seen YJ12A maneuver at its terminal stage.

Brahmos, like any other sea skimming cruise missile flies at high altitude for most of its flight path and drops to low altitude at its terminal stage to achieve its stated 290km range.

If it where to fly a lo-lo flight path, its range is reduced to 120km, much like the missile its based on, the P800 Oniks. Like any other Ramjet powered missile, it achieves its greatest range when flying at high altitude. To deny that is to deny basic physics.



What? Even subsonic missiles like the Harpoon, Exocet and YJ63 perform intricate flight maneuvers at the terminal stage let alone new gen missiles like YJ12A. Its not something new just because brahmos does it too. Missiles have been performing terminal evasive maneuvers for decades now.



I'll wait for official confirmation of that, not "sputnik news".

Can you show me a picture of a Type 052D launching a YJ18? The klub suggestion is false since no Russian missiles feature on any Chinese ships launched since the s300 on the Type 051C DDG's. I'd be very interested to see it since to my knowledge, no such picture has ever been released. We don't know which ASM is embarked on the in service Type 052D's.

There are two classes of anti ship missiles:

1.Dancers

2.Flashers

Dancers are subsonic - low supersonic mach 1+ that can perform intricate maneuvers during terminal stage. This gives less chance to spot but more time to react.

Flashers make a run at speeds of mach 2 - 3+. This they can do throughout terminal stage or throughout flight at high altitude.
This makes them easier to spot but gives less time to react.

Brahmos is a new generation missile which combines the best of not, speed and maneuverability to make it one of the hardest nuts to crack.

YJ 18 or klub goes subsonic for most journey and at final stage unleashes flasher capability for last 40 km like a bullet fired right after popping up for target capturing via radar.

YJ 12 is based on KH 55 which is also a flasher. Thus it is laughable that the YJ 12 gained the ability to perform S maneuver like capabilities.

At the time of correspondence the following info was available on 052D:

http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/china-commissions-second-carrier-killer-destroyer/

Diplomat is more trustworthy than IHS Jane's nowadays.

News regarding 500km test:

https://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/12/17/brahmos_set_to_become_a_super_rocket_21069

A very reliable site as it is primarily a lobby front.

 

[Spectribution]

Nah. That's too small to be the DF21D.

Are there any actual plans to use Shaurya in an AntiShipping role?

Indian Navy already uses INS arihant and some coastal patrol vessels as well as 1 Rajput class for some short range BM capability.

INS Shaurya was designed to be land based and installed at coastal locations. Thus the missile is logically for BM anti shipping role.

PS: The missile launch in question may be a variant of S 300 namely S 300FM or S 300VM aka HHQ 9. These missiles have some ABM capability.

 

[J20!]

There are two classes of anti ship missiles:

1.Dancers

2.Flashers

Dancers are subsonic - low supersonic mach 1+ that can perform intricate maneuvers during terminal stage. This gives less chance to spot but more time to react.

Flashers make a run at speeds of mach 2 - 3+. This they can do throughout terminal stage or throughout flight at high altitude.
This makes them easier to spot but gives less time to react.

Brahmos is a new generation missile which combines the best of not, speed and maneuverability to make it one of the hardest nuts to crack.

YJ 18 or klub goes subsonic for most journey and at final stage unleashes flasher capability for last 40 km like a bullet fired right after popping up for target capturing via radar.

YJ 12 is based on KH 55 which is also a flasher. Thus it is laughable that the YJ 12 gained the ability to perform S maneuver like capabilities.

At the time of correspondence the following info was available on 052D:

http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/china-commissions-second-carrier-killer-destroyer/

Diplomat is more trustworthy than IHS Jane's nowadays.

News regarding 500km test:

https://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/12/17/brahmos_set_to_become_a_super_rocket_21069

A very reliable site as it is primarily a lobby front.

Check your own source mate. The Diplomat article you quoted uses deagel.com as a source, which in turn is quoting none other that Sputnik news. The same Sputnik news article you quoted earlier.

And again, none of the above has a clear picture or official source naming the YJ18 as the Type 052D's ASM armament. The picture Sputnik has on its article is a missile which has the distinctive booster and mid wing arrangement found on the Type 054A's

YJ12A isn't based on the KH55, that's just plain wrong. KH55 is a long range SUBSONIC cruise missile: It doesn't even use ramjet engines:

The YJ12A isn't subsonic during its cruise phase... Its a Ramjet cruise missile, much like Brahmos, and ramjets fly at supersonic speeds through-out their flight paths. And mind you, Brahmos is older than the YJ12 is, so I dont get your "laughable" comment since S-shape flight paths are nothing new in terms of supersonic maneuvering. The P800, Moskit and P700 have been doing that for decades, not forgetting subsonic missiles like I said earlier.

You're trying to draw a distinction without a difference.

 

[J20!]

Indian Navy already uses INS arihant and some coastal patrol vessels as well as 1 Rajput class for some short range BM capability.

INS Shaurya was designed to be land based and installed at coastal locations. Thus the missile is logically for BM anti shipping role.

PS: The missile launch in question may be a variant of S 300 namely S 300FM or S 300VM aka HHQ 9. These missiles have some ABM capability.

Again, I don't believe that is accurate.

Look at that missile and its booster closely. It is waaaaaaay too big to be an HHQ9 and way too small to a true ballistic missile ala DF21D.

 

[Spectribution]

Check your own source mate. The Diplomat article you quoted uses deagel.com as a source, which in turn is quoting none other that Sputnik news. The same Sputnik news article you quoted earlier.

And again, none of the above has a clear picture or official source naming the YJ18 as the Type 052D's ASM armament. The picture Sputnik has on its article is a missile which has the distinctive booster and mid wing arrangement found on the Type 054A's

YJ12A isn't based on the KH55, that's just plain wrong. KH55 is a long range SUBSONIC cruise missile: It doesn't even use ramjet engines:

The YJ12A isn't subsonic during its cruise phase... Its a Ramjet cruise missile, much like Brahmos, and ramjets fly at supersonic speeds through-out their flight paths. And mind you, Brahmos is older than the YJ12 is, so I dont get your "laughable" comment since S-shape flight paths are nothing new in terms of supersonic maneuvering. The P800, Moskit and P700 have been doing that for decades, not forgetting subsonic missiles like I said earlier.

You're trying to draw a distinction without a difference.

Correction KH 31.

No the P 270 and P 700 have no advanced terminal capability. Also they are not sea skimming.

Brahmos is sea skimming, supersonic and has terminal maneuverability.

The type 052D has no hypersonic weapons in its inventory or photon cannons. Its either the klub derivative YJ 18 and or YJ 12 or KH 31. CX 1 is meant for 055.

 

[salute]

Check your own source mate. The Diplomat article you quoted uses deagel.com as a source, which in turn is quoting none other that Sputnik news. The same Sputnik news article you quoted earlier.

And again, none of the above has a clear picture or official source naming the YJ18 as the Type 052D's ASM armament. The picture Sputnik has on its article is a missile which has the distinctive booster and mid wing arrangement found on the Type 054A's

YJ12A isn't based on the KH55, that's just plain wrong. KH55 is a long range SUBSONIC cruise missile: It doesn't even use ramjet engines:

The YJ12A isn't subsonic during its cruise phase... Its a Ramjet cruise missile, much like Brahmos, and ramjets fly at supersonic speeds through-out their flight paths. And mind you, Brahmos is older than the YJ12 is, so I dont get your "laughable" comment since S-shape flight paths are nothing new in terms of supersonic maneuvering. The P800, Moskit and P700 have been doing that for decades, not forgetting subsonic missiles like I said earlier.

You're trying to draw a distinction without a difference.

is that copy of harpoon missile ???