China's aircraft engine history is full of failures !! !!

[qilaotou]

WS-10A wasn't even in existance for early J-10 prototypes. The first time it was tested on an aerocraft was an Su-27SK in 2002 where it failed miserably.

The official account is that the first installation of WS-10A on a plane was Sept 1998. I'll take your word for the first test on Su-27SK because then they need Russian assistance to adjust the body part. WS-10 is bigger than Al-31FN.

It is fine, we just ordered 96 from Ufa. Su-27SM2 upgrades will be coming online next year. This engine will not be offered to China due to fears of intellectual property theft.

It's not neccessary to be rude. You are the boss to decide the sale. I read some of your comments on WS-10A. You are right that Chinese have problems with the quality but they are under batch production. They work quite OK on J-11B.

 

[Vladimir79]

The official account is that the first installation of WS-10A on a plane was Sept 1998. I'll take your word for the first test on Su-27SK because then they need Russian assistance to adjust the body part. WS-10 is bigger than Al-31FN.

WS-10A's first test was in 1998... on the ground. The original WS-10 was flown in 1996 and test protype crashed in 1997 cancelling WS-10 for WS-10A development.

It's not neccessary to be rude. You are the boss to decide the sale.

:swtf:

I read some of your comments on WS-10A. You are right that Chinese have problems with the quality but they are under batch production. They work quite OK on J-11B.

If it works so great in J-11B, why is there still no new production? The same numbers of J-11 that we provided PLAAF are still the same active numbers today. Besides from a few J-11B prototypes, there are no new productions.

 

[qilaotou]

If it works so great in J-11B, why is there still no new production? The same numbers of J-11 that we provided PLAAF are still the same active numbers today. Besides from a few J-11B prototypes, there are no new productions.

WS-10 was never a product type. You are talking nonsense.

It's not working great but OK. The production is in order. The J-11Bs have been deployed to PLAAF fighter division one. Here's one picture showing the engine WS-10A.

 

[Vladimir79]

WS-10 was never a product type. You are talking nonsense.

WS-10 was the intitial engine with low rated thrust... WS-10A increased thrust. You are talking nonsense.

It's not working great but OK. The production is in order. The J-11Bs have been deployed to PLAAF fighter division one. Here's one picture showing the engine WS-10A.

Only a handful have entered the 1st division, 1st regiment, and they are stationed at Shenyang. It is still a testbed. That picture doesn't show engines but the tail.

 

[qilaotou]

WS-10 was the intitial engine with low rated thrust... WS-10A increased thrust. You are talking nonsense.



Only a handful have entered the 1st division, 1st regiment, and they are stationed at Shenyang. It is still a testbed. That picture doesn't show engines but the tail.

They are not stationed in Shenyang. If you know the difference of the WS-10A from Al-31fn then it's enough to show you that ws-10A has been installed on J-11B.

Right, J-11B is just intermediate testbed. PLAAF has plans to order other variants of J-11BS and J-11BJ.

 

[Vladimir79]

They are not stationed in Shenyang. If you know the difference of the WS-10A from Al-31fn then it's enough to show you that ws-10A has been installed on J-11B.

Anshan, Shenyang... same difference. You can drive there in an hour. I can't even see the engines in that photo so how is anyone to know?

Right, J-11B is just intermediate testbed. PLAAF has plans to order other variants of J-11BS and J-11BJ.

Point is, there are only the testbeds. Considering there were 34 AL-31FNs unaccounted for, that J-11B fighter squadron may be powered by modified AL-31FNs.

 

[qilaotou]

Anshan, Shenyang... same difference. You can drive there in an hour. I can't even see the engines in that photo so how is anyone to know?

Point is, there are only the testbeds. Considering there were 34 AL-31FNs unaccounted for, that J-11B fighter squadron may be powered by modified AL-31FNs.

Come on! Chinese worked their brains out even with one liscensed Spey engine for many years. Is it so easy to reverse engineer Al-31F? The WS-10A engine has been demonstrated in Zhuhai Airshow 2008. It's easy to find pictures. You can tell me the evidence that WS-10A's modified Al-31. I can only judge from their appearance.

 

[Vladimir79]

Come on! Chinese worked their brains out even with one liscensed Spey engine for many years. Is it so easy to reverse engineer Al-31F? The WS-10A engine has been demonstrated in Zhuhai Airshow 2008. It's easy to find pictures. You can tell me the evidence that WS-10A's modified Al-31. I can only judge from their appearance.

What else can it be? It certainly isn't based on the CFM56 core. China only had commercial samples of that engine for airliners which is completely different setup than GE F101. They never made the next step of CFM56 to the original F101 for strategic bombers. They never even made their own commercial engine based on that core, much less any other commercial engine. It defies the laws of progressive reverse engineering. China has copied everything else Russian... it is painfully obvious what it is.

 

[bhramos]

what do u say, i dont understand sir,is the whole Military Parade a just Hype- Show put-up thing,
yhis means, they dont have capability what are they telling,?
may be some what in Quantity i accept it sir.

 

[p2prada]

if war was never an option, then Taiwan would have be acknowledged to be "independent" by major powers already long ago.

Then where is the war. it's been 20 years and still no war.

We don't. We only recognise the People Republic of China, not Republic of China. We don't maintain any formal (diplomatic) relations with ROC. Our ties are 'informal' and purely based on trade.

India?Taiwan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, what? We don't have much diplomatic contact with Bolivia too.

 

[qilaotou]

What else can it be? It certainly isn't based on the CFM56 core. China only had commercial samples of that engine for airliners which is completely different setup than GE F101. They never made the next step of CFM56 to the original F101 for strategic bombers. They never even made their own commercial engine based on that core, much less any other commercial engine.

I am looking forawrd to seeing your evidence that WS-10A is a copy of Al-31FN.

It defies the laws of progressive reverse engineering. China has copied everything else Russian... it is painfully obvious what it is.

You are right! China did reverse engineer many Russian equipment systems. The more China has done has been to build system based on original basic Russia design. Soviets had much better industrial capacity and were very innovative. China is indeed in debt to Russia on this. Given the situation what China has been facing it was a good choice for the nation to survive. It is painful but I am still proud of it.

Russia can hope for the better either by using more strict commercial practice or keeping the secrets at home.

I support that China gets every advanced weapon system by all means. Weapons are only used to prevent or to win a war. They do nothing good to humanity or social development. US and Russia may impose santions of military tech to China and then it would force Chinese to develop their own. It is in anyways a good thing.

 

[mattster]

It is obvious that the Chinese are the biggest fans of copying and reverse engineering in the world. They do this in virtually every area of technology.
Its not just aircraft engines.....its everything. I will admit that they have had some good successes but aircraft engines is probably not one of them.

I remember a joke that a Cisco employee here in Silicon Valley was telling me about Huawei Telecom......not only did they copy the Cisco software code line for line for their routers, they even copied the User-Manual documentation line and line, and there happened to be some mistakes in the manual which was also copied by the Huawei guys.

Its just amazing how much intellectual property theft can taken place by China. Now they are training their spies to snoop on other advanced countries for technology.

One of the main ways they get technology is by talking to Chinese American naturalized citizens and asking them to give them secrets.

 

[qilaotou]

It is obvious that the Chinese are the biggest fans of copying and reverse engineering in the world. They do this in virtually every area of technology.
Its not just aircraft engines.....its everything. I will admit that they have had some good successes but aircraft engines is probably not one of them.

I remember a joke that a Cisco employee here in Silicon Valley was telling me about Huawei Telecom......not only did they copy the Cisco software code line for line for their routers, they even copied the User-Manual documentation line and line, and there happened to be some mistakes in the manual which was also copied by the Huawei guys.

Its just amazing how much intellectual property theft can taken place by China. Now they are training their spies to snoop on other advanced countries for technology.

One of the main ways they get technology is by talking to Chinese American naturalized citizens and asking them to give them secrets.

China can become a big IP country sooner or later.

It is like stories in the US history. You killed and robbed natives and then suddenly became human rights guardian. Everything is changeable. Obviously you are not a born American. Why don't you let us know what we can say about your country?

 

[em12]

Not to discredit your point that engine development is hard and that the Chinese have had some trouble, put if you look at ANY military developments, there are many projects that are started and cancelled. Cancellation, as you said, can be due to failure, but it can also be due to numerous other factors. Lack of funding, a foreign purchase opportunity,a newer design, etc..
The list you provided does not provide any indication as to why the engines were cancelled.

A foreign purchase is not always a good quick way to achieve a target, espcially for a very important region.
I believe a edification of Chairman Mao: Self-reliance and Hard work.