China's aircraft engine history is full of failures !! !!

Vladimir79

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The backup plan is AL-31F/FN. If China still imports them, people can deduce that the WS-10 still has some problem. If China has stopped to import AL-31F/FN, people can suppose WS-10 has been used on J-11/10.
Considering WS-10 is a failure, the backup plan has already been initiated.
 

ReneDad

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It seems like there are a lot of people think WS-10 is a photocopy of AL-31F/FN, so it is easy to replace the AL-31s with WS-10s----just like changing the batteries of a digital camera----by the way of dislodging the old one and replacing it with a new one.

There are three photos I download from some Chinese websites.These photo were shot in some Chinese aviation exhibitions in Juhai or somewhere. The photos show WS-10 is entirely different with AL-31F/FN. Most Chinese sources call the plane with WS-10 as J-11B, that means there should be three variants of J-11:

1) J-11, China made Su-27 fuselage with Russia made AL-31F and Radar/avionics;
2) J-11A, China made Su-27 fuselage and Radar/avionics with Russia made AL-31F;
3) J-11B, China made mended Su-27 fuselage with WS-10 and Chinese Radar/avionics;

If WS-10 is not a duplicate of AL-31F/FN, that means it may have different characters like airflow, by-pass ratio and overall pressure ratio, even size, etc, so you can not simply put it into a Su-27 or J-10 fuselage and suppose the plane would work well. There are a lot of things you need to do. You need to change the rear fuselage to fit the size of the new engine, mend the air inlet and duct of the plane to match the air-flow of the new engine, and some test flly is also needed.

WS-10A passed its design-developing certification in 2005, obviously it was on J-11, that means all the works and changes for WS-10 on J-11 I mentioned had finished in 2005. It matchs the time that Chiina stopped import AL-31F engine from Russia.

About WS10 for J-10, I have mentioned AL-31FN is different to AL-31F, so if China decides to use WS-10 on J-10, they have to do the same works they had done on J-11---Changing air inlet, rear fuselage and makiing new test fly, all these need time.

On the other hand, AL-31FN is developed by Russian only for J-10, that means China must have promisesed Russian that they would purchase certain amount of AL-31FN(some Chinese source said it's 300) for no one would develope a turbofan for you if you only bought several of them. I suppose there will not be J-10s with WS-10s in PLAAF's fighter fleet until the 300 hundred AL-31FNs are used up. And then there will be a new variant named J-10B(like J-11B) or something with WS-10 turbofan.

WS-10A


AL-31F


AL-31FN
 

badguy2000

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It seems like there are a lot of people think WS-10 is a photocopy of AL-31F/FN, so it is easy to replace the AL-31s with WS-10s----just like changing the batteries of a digital camera----by the way of dislodging the old one and replacing it with a new one.

There are three photos I download from some Chinese websites.These photo were shot in some Chinese aviation exhibitions in Juhai or somewhere. The photos show WS-10 is entirely different with AL-31F/FN. Most Chinese sources call the plane with WS-10 as J-11B, that means there should be three variants of J-11:

1) J-11, China made Su-27 fuselage with Russia made AL-31F and Radar/avionics;
2) J-11A, China made Su-27 fuselage and Radar/avionics with Russia made AL-31F;
3) J-11B, China made mended Su-27 fuselage with WS-10 and Chinese Radar/avionics;

If WS-10 is not a duplicate of AL-31F/FN, that means it may have different characters like airflow, by-pass ratio and overall pressure ratio, even size, etc, so you can not simply put it into a Su-27 or J-10 fuselage and suppose the plane would work well. There are a lot of things you need to do. You need to change the rear fuselage to fit the size of the new engine, mend the air inlet and duct of the plane to match the air-flow of the new engine, and some test flly is also needed.

WS-10A passed its design-developing certification in 2005, obviously it was on J-11, that means all the works and changes for WS-10 on J-11 I mentioned had finished in 2005. It matchs the time that Chiina stopped import AL-31F engine from Russia.

About WS10 for J-10, I have mentioned AL-31FN is different to AL-31F, so if China decides to use WS-10 on J-10, they have to do the same works they had done on J-11---Changing air inlet, rear fuselage and makiing new test fly, all these need time.

On the other hand, AL-31FN is developed by Russian only for J-10, that means China must have promisesed Russian that they would purchase certain amount of AL-31FN(some Chinese source said it's 300) for no one would develope a turbofan for you if you only bought several of them. I suppose there will not be J-10s with WS-10s in PLAAF's fighter fleet until the 300 hundred AL-31FNs are used up. And then there will be a new variant named J-10B(like J-11B) or something with WS-10 turbofan.

WS-10A


AL-31F


AL-31FN
good post.
but some russians here even insisted that WS10 be the copy of AL31,after I had explained that WS10 is the cousin of CMF56...
 

mattster

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On the other hand, AL-31FN is developed by Russian only for J-10, that means China must have promisesed Russian that they would purchase certain amount of AL-31FN(some Chinese source said it's 300) for no one would develope a turbofan for you if you only bought several of them. I suppose there will not be J-10s with WS-10s in PLAAF's fighter fleet until the 300 hundred AL-31FNs are used up. And then there will be a new variant named J-10B(like J-11B) or something with WS-10 turbofan.

This story keeps getting more bizarre as time goes on !!

After 30 years of developing variants of this engine.....you are finally getting close, and then you tell the Soviets to custom develop an engine called AL-31FN for the J10, and agree to buy a couple of hundred of these engines for a single engine aircraft as a back-up plan - which means about the same number of aircraft as engines have to be sold before you can even start using your own engine ????

If you have so little confidence; Why even bother ??
Why not just go with the Soviet engine from the very begining ??

Is my brain just too simple to wrap around this story, or does anyone else here think this is a one helluva joke !!

Its almost as bad as the MOD taking 30 years to purchase a Hawk Trainer !!
 

badguy2000

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On the other hand, AL-31FN is developed by Russian only for J-10, that means China must have promisesed Russian that they would purchase certain amount of AL-31FN(some Chinese source said it's 300) for no one would develope a turbofan for you if you only bought several of them. I suppose there will not be J-10s with WS-10s in PLAAF's fighter fleet until the 300 hundred AL-31FNs are used up. And then there will be a new variant named J-10B(like J-11B) or something with WS-10 turbofan.

[/QUOTE=ReneDad;78724]



This story keeps getting more bizarre as time goes on !!

After 30 years of developing variants of this engine.....you are finally getting close, and then you tell the Soviets to custom develop an engine called AL-31FN for the J10, and agree to buy a couple of hundred of these engines for a single engine aircraft as a back-up plan - which means about the same number of aircraft as engines have to be sold before you can even start using your own engine ????

If you have so little confidence; Why even bother ??
Why not just go with the Soviet engine from the very begining ??

Is my brain just too simple to wrap around this story, or does anyone else here think this is a one helluva joke !!

Its almost as bad as the MOD taking 30 years to purchase a Hawk Trainer !!

the order of 300 Al31fn was placed in abour 2000,before WS10 was certified in 2005.

Besides, WS10a is only suit for J11B . Before fix WS10 on J10,Chinese engineers have to adjust the size and other tech details of WS10 and work out a speical variety of WS10 for J10.
it will take some time to developme such a new variety of WS10.so Before WS10's new variety for J10 rollsl out, J10l have to use AL31FN
 

Vladimir79

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It seems like there are a lot of people think WS-10 is a photocopy of AL-31F/FN, so it is easy to replace the AL-31s with WS-10s----just like changing the batteries of a digital camera----by the way of dislodging the old one and replacing it with a new one.


1) J-11, China made Su-27 fuselage with Russia made AL-31F and Radar/avionics;
2) J-11A, China made Su-27 fuselage and Radar/avionics with Russia made AL-31F;
3) J-11B, China made mended Su-27 fuselage with WS-10 and Chinese Radar/avionics;
WS-10 was tested on J-11 and the J-10, all of which were failures with the pilots coming in for deadstick landing. There are so many versions of the AL-31 series, exterior modifications don't make it a different engine. The only engine based on that series that is a different engine is item 117S, of which you are decades from attaining.

If WS-10 is not a duplicate of AL-31F/FN, that means it may have different characters like airflow, by-pass ratio and overall pressure ratio, even size, etc, so you can not simply put it into a Su-27 or J-10 fuselage and suppose the plane would work well. There are a lot of things you need to do. You need to change the rear fuselage to fit the size of the new engine, mend the air inlet and duct of the plane to match the air-flow of the new engine, and some test flly is also needed.
I'm sure it does considering Institute 606 has failed to get the Soviet clone operational.

WS-10A passed its design-developing certification in 2005, obviously it was on J-11, that means all the works and changes for WS-10 on J-11 I mentioned had finished in 2005. It matchs the time that Chiina stopped import AL-31F engine from Russia.
China has been taking delivieries of that 2006 finalised order for the last three years. You don't just get 100 engines overnight.

About WS10 for J-10, I have mentioned AL-31FN is different to AL-31F, so if China decides to use WS-10 on J-10, they have to do the same works they had done on J-11---Changing air inlet, rear fuselage and makiing new test fly, all these need time.
The mods nesessary to make AL-31F to AL-31FN are elementary. If you can make WS-10 then you can make AL-31F for J-11. We haven't seen too many new J-11s added to PLAAF inventory since the 100 Su-27SKs already built. Tells me J-10 is far better for the money than anything PLAAF hopes to get out of their J-11 clones considering it requires two engines, instead of one, that they still can't make. J-10 production means more numbers.

On a side note, there have been 154 AL-31FN engines exported to China for J-10 but there are only 120 J-10s in service. Where are the other 34 engines? I suspect they are being modified and placed in J-11.

On the other hand, AL-31FN is developed by Russian only for J-10, that means China must have promisesed Russian that they would purchase certain amount of AL-31FN(some Chinese source said it's 300) for no one would develope a turbofan for you if you only bought several of them. I suppose there will not be J-10s with WS-10s in PLAAF's fighter fleet until the 300 hundred AL-31FNs are used up. And then there will be a new variant named J-10B(like J-11B) or something with WS-10 turbofan.
Look at the trends, J-11 production has all but stopped. J-10 production only follows on with more AL-31 shipments. China has proven through engine orders that they still can't make their own turbofans. What China has promised is to stop breaking intellectual property right laws. If they persist, we will discontinue engine delievery and sieze Chinese assets. The day China says "go to hell" is the day we know they have a working engine.
 

p2prada

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WS-10A passed its design-developing certification in 2005, obviously it was on J-11, that means all the works and changes for WS-10 on J-11 I mentioned had finished in 2005. It matchs the time that Chiina stopped import AL-31F engine from Russia.
China signed a deal for 100 Al-31FNs only in 2005, to be supplied after 2006.
Chinese Defence Today - 2005 News: Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China

AL-31F / AL-31FN
2005 China contract with Russia placed in 2005 for 100 AL-31FN turbofan engines to power the J-10 multi-role fighter aircraft. The contract was valued at $350 million and the Russian contractor was MMPP Salut. Engine deliveries were due between 2005 and 2006.
Items: 100

2005 China contract with Russia placed in 2005 for 150 AL-31F turbofan engines to power Su-27/30 aircraft family. The contract was valued at $550 million and the Russian contractor was MMPP Salut. Engine deliveries were due to begin in 2006.
Items: 150


About WS10 for J-10, I have mentioned AL-31FN is different to AL-31F, so if China decides to use WS-10 on J-10, they have to do the same works they had done on J-11---Changing air inlet, rear fuselage and makiing new test fly, all these need time.
You are mixed up. If the AL-31 family can power both J-10 and J-11, then why not the WS-10. You are suggesting modifications to the airframe. But, its the opposite. You only need to make the required modifications to the WS-10 itself. Afterall, it is your own engine. A WS-10"FN" for the J-10 and a WS-10"F" for the J-11.

On the other hand, AL-31FN is developed by Russian only for J-10, that means China must have promisesed Russian that they would purchase certain amount of AL-31FN(some Chinese source said it's 300) for no one would develope a turbofan for you if you only bought several of them. I suppose there will not be J-10s with WS-10s in PLAAF's fighter fleet until the 300 hundred AL-31FNs are used up. And then there will be a new variant named J-10B(like J-11B) or something with WS-10 turbofan.
Unless China paid for the development of the engine. if that is the case, then China does not have to buy more than 300 engines unless the WS-10 has problems.

Your assumptions are very vague. Can you explain one thing? China copied the Flankers including the radar to produce the J-11. But, China refuses to copy the AL-31(70-80% ToT was provided by Russia and the most obvious option to power the China Flankers) and some how China is able to copy an American engine(CFM-56, 0% TOT was provided by USA).

A few years ago, China was trying to steal power packs for the flankers from Russia which is somehow meant to power the J-11's "American" engines.

Really. Who is China trying to fool?
 

p2prada

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On a side note, there have been 154 AL-31FN engines exported to China for J-10 but there are only 120 J-10s in service. Where are the other 34 engines? I suspect they are being modified and placed in J-11.
Sir, the first 54 engines supplied were the Al-31Fs. The same engines that power the Flankers powered the J-10 in the initial stages of the development of the J-10.

The next 100 were the modified AL-31FNs. Out of the 120 aircraft, the TD's were introduced in 1998, you can expect only a 100 to be flying today. Without new orders for the Al-31FN within this decade, you can expect J-10s to be falling out of the sky from the middle of the next decade. Afterall, the shelf life of the AL-31 is 10 years.
 

Martian

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"On a side note, there have been 154 AL-31FN engines exported to China for J-10 but there are only 120 J-10s in service. Where are the other 34 engines? I suspect they are being modified and placed in J-11."

Are they setting the 34 engines aside for spares?

Regarding the WS-10, I don't think that China will place a new unproven engine onto a single-engine fighter. J-10 production will most likely rely on Russian engines until the WS-10 has a proven track record.
 

p2prada

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Are they setting the 34 engines aside for spares?
The first set of engines will be due for retirement anyways. They were inducted in 2000-02. It's been 9 years since the first deliveries.

Regarding the WS-10, I don't think that China will place a new unproven engine onto a single-engine fighter. J-10 production will most likely rely on Russian engines until the WS-10 has a proven track record.
That's not how it works. Then the F-35 engines must never be used since it is completely new and unproven. The Kaveri also cannot be used on the LCA using the same logic.

As long as the engine is designed for the J-10, it can be used. Proven, unproven,capability etc is decided after the tests.
 

ReneDad

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China signed a deal for 100 Al-31FNs only in 2005, to be supplied after 2006.
Chinese Defence Today - 2005 News: Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China
I said China must have promised Russian to buy certain amount of AL-31FN when it was going to be developed and some Chinese source said the amount was about 300 or 350. This doesn't mean China should buy all of the 300 engines at the first year and put them in a warehouse rusting. Some Chinese website said in 2005 that the delivery of mass production AL-31FN would begin in 2005 and expire in 2011.

China chose AL-31FN instead of WS-10 in late 1990s to accelerate the J-10 project because Taiwan separatist leader Li Denghui visited US and American President Clinton called him "President",that means US might turn to support the separatists publicly.Then Chen Suibian was elected as president in 2000 election. China government was deeply concerned that he would seek for independence when his term expired in 2004 or 2008 and the situation would lead to a war. That was not a normal period.
 

ReneDad

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What are you talking about? WS-10 wasn't even off the test bench in the ninties.
I suppose AL-31 was designated as Su-27 engine before it left drawing table.

J-10 project was started in 1986. There was no one could imagine Brezhnev could sell plane engines to China at the time. WS-10 was initially aimed at J-10 project. But in mid 1990s, according to a interview of the chief designer of WS-10 by a Chinese media, Gorbachov sold China some Su-27 and the chief designer thought it would be better testing his new designed engine in a mature plane first than a new designed plane, so he suggested PLAAF to change the plane for his engine's maiden fly. His proposal was granted meanwhile PLA thought it would be less risky to chose a mature engine for J-10's maiden flight, so they turned to Russia.

Using a foreign mature engine instead a indigenous new engine fllies a indigenous new plane is not rare in the world. Rafale did that, then J-10 and now LCA. I bet if Brezhnev could borrow some F-100 engine from US, he would also like using this way to make Su-27 in service in 1970s like F-15 not in 1980s.
 

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I suppose AL-31 was designated as Su-27 engine before it left drawing table.
Not even, the first prototype flew with AL-21FZAI engines.

J-10 project was started in 1986. There was no one could imagine Brezhnev could sell plane engines to China at the time. WS-10 was initially aimed at J-10 project. But in mid 1990s, according to a interview of the chief designer of WS-10 by a Chinese media, Gorbachov sold China some Su-27 and the chief designer thought it would be better testing his new designed engine in a mature plane first than a new designed plane, so he suggested PLAAF to change the plane for his engine's maiden fly. His proposal was granted meanwhile PLA thought it would be less risky to chose a mature engine for J-10's maiden flight, so they turned to Russia.
Gorby never sold China Su-27. WS-10 never made it off the test bench for J-10 flight trials so AL-31 was the only option.

Using a foreign mature engine instead a indigenous new engine fllies a indigenous new plane is not rare in the world. Rafale did that, then J-10 and now LCA. I bet if Brezhnev could borrow some F-100 engine from US, he would also like using this way to make Su-27 in service in 1970s like F-15 not in 1980s.
Getting a foreign engine would not have sped up testing. Going from design concept to full production in ten years for a 100% domestic cutting edge fighter is not a bad timetable.
 

p2prada

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I said China must have promised Russian to buy certain amount of AL-31FN when it was going to be developed and some Chinese source said the amount was about 300 or 350.
Notice that the number of Al-31FNs purchased and the number of J-10s flying are all the same. If your WS-10"FN" was indeed worthy of the J-10, then you would have canceled the Russian contract a long time ago.

This doesn't mean China should buy all of the 300 engines at the first year and put them in a warehouse rusting.
Of course not.

China chose AL-31FN instead of WS-10 in late 1990s to accelerate the J-10 project because Taiwan separatist leader Li Denghui visited US and American President Clinton called him "President",that means US might turn to support the separatists publicly.Then Chen Suibian was elected as president in 2000 election. China government was deeply concerned that he would seek for independence when his term expired in 2004 or 2008 and the situation would lead to a war. That was not a normal period.
Any China-Taiwan relationship is not normal. You call them separatists while we call them an independent country. War was never an option. China cannot fight the US.

China chose the AL-31 only because the WS-10 wasn't even ready for testing, probably the WS-10 was still on the drawing board in the 90s. There was no other option. After that the WS-10 development continued based on AL-31s design features. China announced the ability to manufacture WS-10s only 2 years ago.
 

badguy2000

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Any China-Taiwan relationship is not normal. You call them separatists while we call them an independent country. War was never an option. China cannot fight the US.

China chose the AL-31 only because the WS-10 wasn't even ready for testing, probably the WS-10 was still on the drawing board in the 90s. There was no other option. After that the WS-10 development continued based on AL-31s design features. China announced the ability to manufacture WS-10s only 2 years ago.
if war was never an option, then Taiwan would have be acknowledged to be "independent" by major powers already long ago.:help:
 

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Gorby never sold China Su-27. WS-10 never made it off the test bench for J-10 flight trials so AL-31 was the only option.
WS-10A was surely trialed on early J-10 according to an interview with one of the test pilots. He compared the differences of performance of the two engines.

Getting a foreign engine would not have sped up testing. Going from design concept to full production in ten years for a 100% domestic cutting edge fighter is not a bad timetable.
Agreed. Russia was suggesting a new Al-31 FM2 for J-10B. How is it going with this engine?
 

Vladimir79

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WS-10A was surely trialed on early J-10 according to an interview with one of the test pilots. He compared the differences of performance of the two engines.
WS-10A wasn't even in existance for early J-10 prototypes. The first time it was tested on an aerocraft was an Su-27SK in 2002 where it failed miserably.

Agreed. Russia was suggesting a new Al-31 FM2 for J-10B. How is it going with this engine?
It is fine, we just ordered 96 from Ufa. Su-27SM2 upgrades will be coming online next year. This engine will not be offered to China due to fears of intellectual property theft.
 

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